1958 Lincoln Generator problem, not charging (problem solved)

[dalef62]

I am not having my luck with charging systems this year.  My 1958 Lincoln has developed a no charging problem.  I have tested the generator on the car and took the belt off and connected power to the Armature side and grounded the field and the generator "motors" as it should so I thought the regulator was bad.  I got a new replacement and installed it and there is no change, still no charge.  I have 12 volts at the battery side of the regulator and when the car is running I have 1.54 volts at both the field and armature contacts at the regulator at idle.  I have polarized the generator and it makes no difference.  I would think that when the key is on I should have 12 volts at the generator but I don't.  Did I get a junk regulator?  

How can I test it?  I used to have a shop manual for the Lincoln but it has went MIA, so I am using the shop manual from my '57 Fairlane.

[TerryB]

Does your Ford shop manual have testing information for the regulator?  I was looking at my 1958 Motors manual and it describes some tests for the regulator.  If they would be helpful let me know.  Personally I would examine the condition of the brushes and contact area under the brushes as a first step.

[61polara]

Did you flash the voltage regulator to tell it which way to charge.  Instructions are in the service manual.

[dalef62]

38 minutes ago, 61polara said:

Did you flash the voltage regulator to tell it which way to charge.  Instructions are in the service manual.

Yes, flashed it several times.  Haven't had any time this week to work on it.  Hopefully this weekend.

Thanks

[dalef62]

On 5/28/2024 at 5:18 PM, TerryB said:

Does your Ford shop manual have testing information for the regulator?  I was looking at my 1958 Motors manual and it describes some tests for the regulator.  If they would be helpful let me know.  Personally I would examine the condition of the brushes and contact area under the brushes as a first step.

Hope to get time to do some testing this weekend.

Thanks 

[Frank DuVal]

1 hour ago, 61polara said:

Did you flash the voltage regulator to tell it which way to charge.  Instructions are in the service manual.

One flashes the field of the generator, it leaves residual magnetism in the iron field coils so the generator bootstraps in the correct polarity. Of course the easiest way to do this with a short piece of wire is across two terminals of the voltage regulator. Hence the confusion for the last 85+ years.🤣

[TerryB]

The voltage regulator needs to be well grounded to the car body.  You might want to check your body ground straps to make sure they are not loose or corroded.

[dalef62]

Ok, I was able to work on the Lincoln tonight.  With the engine running I got 1.5 volts at idle (speed idle up, voltage goes up to about 3 volts at around 1500 rpms,) on both the field and armature terminals at the regulator.  The regulator is well grounded to the body and the engine block is grounded also.  Still no charging. 

So I decided to remove the generator, one thing I did notice was the field terminal was not completely tight.  I continued to remove the generator and did a test as recommended, positive to armature, negative to body of generator and I got a pulsating rotation of the armature.  Basically half the time it was running, half the time is was coasting.  

So, it looks like it is time to send the generator out for rebuild or see if I have another one somewhere.

Any thoughts???

[TerryB]

I’m not familiar with the construction of your Ford generator but if it has a metal band around the brush end of the generator, have you removed the band to inspect the condition of the brushes.  Sometimes they are dirty and need to be cleaned and/or reseated in their holders.

[dalef62]

[Bloo]

I don't have books nearby, but it looks like that generator wants 12v on the field wire to charge.

 

What I would do:

 

1) Disconnect all 3 wires at generator (including ground), all 4 wires at regulator (including ground) and both battery cables.

 

2) With a multimeter on ohms or continuity, check for continuity on:

    a) ground wire from generator to regulator

    b) field wire from generator to regulator (small)

    c) armature wire from generator to regulator (big)

    d) wire that belongs on regulator BAT terminal to positive battery cable's (+) terminal.

 

Wiring all good? Nothing broken? Good!

 

3) Hook it all back up (generator, regulator, battery) with one exception, verifying as you go that:

    a) generator frame ground really goes to regulator frame ground

    b) armature (big terminal and wire at back of generator) goes to ARM (GEN) on regulator.

    c) wire that had continuity to the (+) battery cable goes to BAT on regulator

 

And now the exception: the field wire connects as normal at the generator, but at the regulator end, piggyback it on the ARM (GEN) terminal.

 

This disables regulation, don't walk away and leave it like this.

 

Connect a multimeter set to DC VOLTS to the battery (+) and (-) posts. If it's not an autoranging multimeter, set it to a DC VOLTS scale that can handle more volts than you would probably see. Any 20V or higher scale should suffice.

 

With a fully charged battery, or close to fully charged, start car and run at high idle or cruise speed, enough engine speed to normally charge if the system were working properly (not idle). The voltage at the battery should be going crazy. Normal charging voltage is 14 point something-or-other, but we have disabled regulation. It should climb pretty suddenly and should probably go higher 15? 16?. The important thing is it should NOT stay down at 12.6V (or whatever the battery voltage is with the car not running). If it climbs right up like this to something considerably more than 12.6, the generator is working. Shut the car down right away. Don't leave it run like this, even if it doesn't charge. Test and get done as quickly as you can. The generator field could overheat.

 

If it doesn't do that, and it just looks at you like a stupid stone, then your next move is to restart the engine and run at a higher RPM again, and while running short the BAT and ARM(or GEN) terminals together at the voltage regulator with a jumper wire, or even a screwdriver if those two terminals happen to be next to each other on the regulator. These are hot so be sure NOT to short either of them to ground. It will probably spark, so don't jump to much.   Did this make the voltage at the battery come up?  If so, the generator is charging, and the problem probably requires looking in the regulator. As before, shut down as quickly as possible.

 

If that didn't make it charge either, then it is time to look for the trouble inside the generator.

 

Be sure to put the field wire back on the correct terminal at the regulator.

 

Edited June 1 by Bloo (see edit history)

[dalef62]

14 hours ago, Bloo said:

I don't have books nearby, but it looks like that generator wants 12v on the field wire to charge.

 

What I would do:

 

1) Disconnect all 3 wires at generator (including ground), all 4 wires at regulator (including ground) and both battery cables.

 

2) With a multimeter on ohms or continuity, check for continuity on:

    a) ground wire from generator to regulator

    b) field wire from generator to regulator (small)

    c) armature wire from generator to regulator (big)

    d) wire that belongs on regulator BAT terminal to positive battery cable's (+) terminal.

 

Wiring all good? Nothing broken? Good!

 

3) Hook it all back up (generator, regulator, battery) with one exception, verifying as you go that:

    a) generator frame ground really goes to regulator frame ground

    b) armature (big terminal and wire at back of generator) goes to ARM (GEN) on regulator.

    c) wire that had continuity to the (+) battery cable goes to BAT on regulator

 

And now the exception: the field wire connects as normal at the generator, but at the regulator end, piggyback it on the ARM (GEN) terminal.

 

This disables regulation, don't walk away and leave it like this.

 

Connect a multimeter set to DC VOLTS to the battery (+) and (-) posts. If it's not an autoranging multimeter, set it to a DC VOLTS scale that can handle more volts than you would probably see. Any 20V or higher scale should suffice.

 

With a fully charged battery, or close to fully charged, start car and run at high idle or cruise speed, enough engine speed to normally charge if the system were working properly (not idle). The voltage at the battery should be going crazy. Normal charging voltage is 14 point something-or-other, but we have disabled regulation. It should climb pretty suddenly and should probably go higher 15? 16?. The important thing is it should NOT stay down at 12.6V (or whatever the battery voltage is with the car not running). If it climbs right up like this to something considerably more than 12.6, the generator is working. Shut the car down right away. Don't leave it run like this, even if it doesn't charge. Test and get done as quickly as you can. The generator field could overheat.

 

If it doesn't do that, and it just looks at you like a stupid stone, then your next move is to restart the engine and run at a higher RPM again, and while running short the BAT and ARM(or GEN) terminals together at the voltage regulator with a jumper wire, or even a screwdriver if those two terminals happen to be next to each other on the regulator. These are hot so be sure NOT to short either of them to ground. It will probably spark, so don't jump to much.   Did this make the voltage at the battery come up?  If so, the generator is charging, and the problem probably requires looking in the regulator. As before, shut down as quickly as possible.

 

If that didn't make it charge either, then it is time to look for the trouble inside the generator.

 

Be sure to put the field wire back on the correct terminal at the regulator.

 

Bloo,

I did these test and most of them resulted in no change.  The last test had a different result,  when I hooked up the battery side of the regulator to the amp side I got a sudden and definite loss of voltage(12.46 down to 8.volts)

The generator is back off.  I did change armatures in in this morning as the old one didn't motor evenly, half on, half coast.  The new used armature motors but not very fast and when grounding the field it makes no noticeable difference.

I have 2 used Lincoln generators from parts cars, and the one on the car.

[Bloo]

4 hours ago, dalef62 said:

The last test had a different result,  when I hooked up the battery side of the regulator to the amp side I got a sudden and definite loss of voltage(12.46 down to 8.volts)

Wow. I'll bet that armature is shorted. I think you are on the right track fixing the generator. I've not used that motoring test in a long time. but I don't recall that they really take off spinning with authority, they just turn.

 

[dalef62]

I'm about ready to get a one wire alternator and get ride of generator at regulator!

I can wire cars, well Crosleys with no problem, but generators and regulators give fits!

Edited June 1 by dalef62 (see edit history)

[dalef62]

21 minutes ago, Bloo said:

Wow. I'll bet that armature is shorted. I think you are on the right track fixing the generator. I've not used that motoring test in a long time. but I don't recall that they really take off spinning with authority, they just turn.

 

But the strange thing about that is it did the same thing with the armature that I replaced this morning????  

 

[Bloo]

48 minutes ago, dalef62 said:

But the strange thing about that is it did the same thing with the armature that I replaced this morning????  

 

I was thinking about the low voltage, but in common with the different behavior while "motoring". The generator is going to charge if it can, but if it can't, those big windings on the armature are going to be a significant load on the battery.

 

Full fielding (first test in my wall of text earlier) SHOULD have made it charge like crazy. The exception being that the 12v to power it was grabbed from the armature terminal. That SHOULD work and it SHOULD have started charging, but if there were no voltage because the generator wasn't polarized, and/or the cutout in the regulator didn't pull in, there is no guarantee there would be voltage to power the field. That is why the second test. When you did that, you manually connected both the armature and the field to the battery. There is NO reason for it not to charge at that point. The regulator cant stop it, and the generator is also polarized.

 

EDIT: Thinking more about this, you put in a different armature and it did exactly the same? And the brushes have enough left to make good contact, etc? That sounds like a problem with the field because it is the only thing left.

 

One more thing, the ground for charging starts with a grounded brush. It's on the back plate on this generator, current has to flow from the back plate to the engine (and from there on to the battery). Maybe through the rear bracket? Maybe through the case and through the front bracket? Maybe both? Could there be fresh paint on any of these parts blocking the flow of current where they touch each other?

 

Edited June 1 by Bloo (see edit history)

[dalef62]

35 minutes ago, Bloo said:

I was thinking about the low voltage, but in common with the different behavior while "motoring". The generator is going to charge if it can, but if it can't, those big windings on the armature are going to be a significant load on the battery.

 

Full fielding (first test in my wall of text earlier) SHOULD have made it charge like crazy. The exception being that the 12v to power it was grabbed from the armature terminal. That SHOULD work and it SHOULD have started charging, but if there were no voltage because the generator wasn't polarized, and/or the cutout in the regulator didn't pull in, there is no guarantee there would be voltage to power the field. That is why the second test. When you did that, you manually connected both the armature and the field to the battery. There is NO reason for it not to charge at that point. The regulator cant stop it, and the generator is also polarized.

 

EDIT: Thinking more about this, you put in a different armature and it did exactly the same? And the brushes have enough left to make good contact, etc? That sounds like a problem with the field because it is the only thing left.

 

One more thing, the ground for charging starts with a grounded brush. It's on the back plate on this generator, current has to flow from the back plate to the engine (and from there on to the battery). Maybe through the rear bracket? Maybe through the case and through the front bracket? Maybe both? Could there be fresh paint on any of these parts blocking the flow of current where they touch each other?

 

The different armature reacted differently in one respect, the original one pulsated when motored.  When hooked up in the car they both acted the same.  The brushes are like new.

[Bloo]

I think it's time to be really suspicious of the field. One end of the windings is connected to the F post, and the other to (I assume) ground. If that's not right we might have to modify the testing a little.

 

Get the other end disconnected from ground and measure continuity through the winding. Got continuity? Good!

 

Then take a car battery and an old incandescent test light in series and check for a short from the winding to ground. Something like:

 

Battery(+) >> test light >> F post

 

and

 

Generator case >> Battery(-).

 

It doesn't necessarily have to be in that order, just has to be in a big loop somehow. Since the other end of the winding has been disconnected from ground, there should NOT be a current path to the case and the light should not light. What you are checking for here is bad insulation on the field winding leaking current to the case (ground).

 

Now this test is sort of BS, and someone is bound to call me out on it because a professional would test with higher voltage, and a problem can "hide". Also there are edge cases like a shorted turn, etc. that this test would miss. I have been testing like this for decades. I hardly ever miss with this test, but it isn't perfect.

 

Edited June 2 by Bloo (see edit history)

[TerryB]

At the beginning of this video you might get some more info on your generator issue and how to do some tests.  There are probably more videos but this one was the first to show up in my search.

 

 

[dalef62]

20 hours ago, Bloo said:

I think it's time to be really suspicious of the field. One end of the windings is connected to the F post, and the other to (I assume) ground. If that's not right we might have to modify the testing a little.

 

Get the other end disconnected from ground and measure continuity through the winding. Got continuity? Good!

 

Then take a car battery and an old incandescent test light in series and check for a short from the winding to ground. Something like:

 

Battery(+) >> test light >> F post

 

and

 

Generator case >> Battery(-).

 

It doesn't necessarily have to be in that order, just has to be in a big loop somehow. Since the other end of the winding has been disconnected from ground, there should NOT be a current path to the case and the light should not light. What you are checking for here is bad insulation on the field winding leaking current to the case (ground).

 

Now this test is sort of BS, and someone is bound to call me out on it because a professional would test with higher voltage, and a problem can "hide". Also there are edge cases like a shorted turn, etc. that this test would miss. I have been testing like this for decades. I hardly ever miss with this test, but it isn't perfect.

 

Bloo,

I think we have a winner!   I disconnected the ground post from the case and ohmed it out and found a short.  I removed the post for the field and ohmed it out again and NO short.  In looking at the insulators on the field post the flat insulator on the inside was deteriorated and must have been grounding out.  I will get a new washer and see if that corrects the problem.  Hopefully tomorrow evening I will have an operating charging system.  Fingers crossed...

I thank you very much for you help in hopefully solving this problem.  

Edited June 2 by dalef62 (see edit history)

[dalef62]

Bloo and others that offered help, 

The charging system is working again!  The problem was a grounded field post!  I was really getting frustrated with this problem and bloo and others worked me through it!  I can't thank you enough.

Now maybe I can tackle the Hupmobile charging problem with a little more confidence.