Considerations when purchasing a brass era car

[mrcvs]

And so what are they?  My wife’s 2005 Jeep caught on fire and was totaled, and I suddenly may have a bay available, but having only one bay potentially available, I have only one chance to “get it right”.

 

Some thoughts.  Brass era automobiles are generally, but not always, of internet to an older crowd.  It seems like these cars, at best, will hold steady over the next decade, or maybe decline, even substantially.

 

My budget right now is under 50K.  I came close to purchasing this 1908 REO at auction yesterday.  It hammered at 23k, no buyer’s premium.  Was in pieces when the owner passed away, an auto restoration business put it back together, was told it was running when towed.  Needs new gas tank, water tank, maybe other unknowns.  The gentleman who put it back together was the runner up bidder at 22k, which means it likely was worth at least that.

 

Not running and over 20k caused me to not bid.  A non running vehicle, unless up and running in short order, would prove unpopular sitting in the extra bay.

 

Unrestored was the huge appeal of this REO to me.  So much of the brass era stuff seems over restored and over polished.  Maybe that’s what folks want and I’m misguided.

 

So, in what direction is the brass era car market heading?

 

Buy now or wait for something probably better or cheaper over the next decade?  When the mortgage is paid off, my budget improves, but it might be waiting until then might result in a similar budget but a whole lot more car if prices diminish.

 

And, restored or unrestricted?  Meaning mechanically sound, but original leather, original or old paint job, etc.

 

[mechanician]

There are two parts to your question, the life/financial advice and market prognostication about which I am unqualified to comment; and the present merits of individual cars about which I can.

 

I agree with your assessment that is a nice REO.  It does appear to have nice original upholstery, which is a huge plus.  I would take good original over great restoration any day of the week.  I however, disagree with the overall assessment of that car as "unrestored." Both the body and chassis appear to have received repaints (and probably more), and the top has been replaced (all likely '50-'60s era?).  I have seen cars that were "restored" at that time where the car is mechanically unrestored (or worse, poorly restored).  I own one such car, I needed to mechanically restore the whole car.  In my case, I had other reasons for my interest in that specific car so it was worth the trouble, at least for me. For a commonly seen car like a REO, mechanically restoring an old refurbishment means encountering the worst aspects of a restored and unrestored car.  Perhaps the originality of the upholstery is enough to offset this, and I certainly understand if it is, as such cars are tough to find.

 

Back to the mechanicals.  A car that must be towed to start is not a running car.  I can't say what could be wrong, but if it really needed to be towed, it is more than simple adjustments.  Perhaps something was done incorrectly in the reassembly, more likely it is extremely tired and worn.  The engine will almost certainly need to come out.  In a 50-60s refurbishment, you almost certainly will find something wrong (in addition to whatever is making it so difficult to start).  If you can do this work, and enjoy doing this work then it is a great project.  If you can not, or do not want to, then you are writing checks.  Those checks will almost certainly sum to at least the 23k cost of getting into the car.  Then there's the question of the chassis...  One could easily be >70k into a car with a '50s repaint.  Again, if you like doing this yourself (and I do too) then its hours of enjoyment, and you should go for it.  If not, try to find something ready to go (but ask questions and do your homework, I have seen plenty of un-sorted and even worn out "fresh" restorations).

 

My assessments are only my opinions and made without standing next to the car.  Do what makes you happy, if the car doesn't make you happy today, don't buy it.  There will be one that does, and if there isn't, then there's golf or stamp collecting... 

[alsancle]

My honest advice about the market for all collectible cars is that they will never be worth more than what you pay today. The exceptions are in the 1/10 of 1% category.   Possibly some will go to zero in the not to distant future.   So if any level of financial return is required buy the cheapest car that will keep your brain occupied.

[mrcvs]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

My honest advice about the market for all collectible cars is that they will never be worth more than what you pay today. The exceptions are in the 1/10 of 1% category.   Possibly some will go to zero in the not to distant future.   So if any level of financial return is required buy the cheapest car that will keep your brain occupied.

You summarized my thoughts, I think.  I didn’t think of it that way, however.  
 

These brass automobiles may go down over time, but labor isn’t decreasing any and will certainly rise.  So an automobile that needs work—over time, the decrease in price may be considerably offset by the higher cost of labor.

[Grimy]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

My honest advice about the market for all collectible cars is that they will never be worth more than what you pay today. The exceptions are in the 1/10 of 1% category.   Possibly some will go to zero in the not to distant future.   So if any level of financial return is required buy the cheapest car that will keep your brain occupied.

As I said in another thread, the Inflation Calculator on the internet dashes all of our hopes of making money on our vehicles, to which I will now add  even without factoring in opportunity costs.  It may be a function of my advanced age, but I'm only interested in vehicles I can drive now, not projects.

Edited April 21 by Grimy
corrected one word (see edit history)

[alsancle]

27 minutes ago, Grimy said:

As I said in another thread, the Inflation Calculator on the internet dashes all of our hopes of making money on our vehicles, to which I will now add  even without factoring in opportunity costs.  It may be a function of my advanced age, but I'm only interested in projects I can drive now, not projects.

George,  Ed and I both like to say that project cars have no value.  Not completely true as something very interesting will usually find a buyer at some price.  But run of the mill cars that are projects are worth next to nothing.   You are not alone,  I don't want a car that I will be working on for the next 5 years before driving.    Not to mention restoration costs are insane.

[edinmass]

Early cars…..say pre 1925 are much easier to deal with…..more of a - less parts and trim kinda thing. When you get to my 1936 Pierce V-12 there is something like 600 parts just on the dash counting special hardware…….and 100 pieces of chrome just on the dash……..a 1924 Caddy for instance………probably has 20 percent of the parts, or less. With the modern era of YouTube for fixing things and showing how to repair almost anything, there will be more guidance for shady tree mechanics in the future. It’s not all doom and gloom for the hobby, just change. It’s million years old dinosaurs like us here that will need to adjust.

[alsancle]

16 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Early cars…..say pre 1925 are much easier to deal with…..more of a - less parts and trim kinda thing. When you get to my 1936 Pierce V-12 there is something like 600 parts just on the dash counting special hardware…….and 100 pieces of chrome just on the dash……..a 1924 Caddy for instance………probably has 20 percent of the parts, or less. With the modern era of YouTube for fixing things and showing how to repair almost anything, there will be more guidance for shady tree mechanics in the future. It’s not all doom and gloom for the hobby, just change. It’s million years old dinosaurs like us here that will need to adjust.

 

This is actually a really good point and someone else said the same thing the other day.   I think the days of being able to debug a 540K fuel system,   or a tick in a 16 cylinder Marmon engine are over.  At least for the semi-regular collectors.

[DGPoff]

As always it’s a question of your brass car primary use. If touring is the objective, then spend some time to think about tour locations, distance, etc.. A 2 cylinder car will likely need to be transported to a tour. So those costs come into play. A mid size car can often be driven to and from.

 

I’ve driven a 2 cylinder car on a 300 mile tour. I’ve traveled with a friend around the NE in an early brass T without issue, no trailer. You sort of need to define what game you want to play. I’d say with $50k, you can find better options more now, Than in recent history.

For perspective, what I am finding difficult is to find a long distance tour car, capable of a Transcon trip. No trailering, drive it there. Here mechanical provenance trumps everything. And my budget is appropriate. As is often said, finding the really great stuff is hard, unless you have a 7 figure budget!

 

 

Edited April 21 by DGPoff (see edit history)

[edinmass]

10 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

This is actually a really good point and someone else said the same thing the other day.   I think the days of being able to debug a 540K fuel system,   or a tick in a 16 cylinder Marmon engine are over.  At least for the semi-regular collectors.

The big boy toys need lots of labor, and that means a deep pocket. Almost all cars stay dialed in once you get them there if you drive them on a regular basis. There are bunches of FANTASTIC nickel cars out there available for such reasonable prices it’s ridiculous. Even big nickel cars are very, very affordable. In the last 60 years, it’s never been more affordable to get into the hobby than it is today. Buy a finished car that is sorted and reliable. I try and not look at the for sale advertisements as I don’t need any more cars, and there are handfuls of good deals being posted here weekly. With about 25 years left on my clock, I’m certain that more interesting cars will pass through my hands than I thought I would ever be able to afford. So the market shift is working to the advantage of new people and existing collectors adding to their inventory. Drivability is the key to adding cars to your collection…….unless you like garage art. The big six Studebaker’s a fun, reliable cars that cost about the same as a lawn mower today for a driver type car. You won’t be driving it at 60mph, but you sure can have great family fun in a car that is easy to service and drive. 

[Jim Mead]

Haven’t even read the replies. There are plenty of 30 hp Touring cars of good makes and sound runners coming available right now.  These flush outs come in cycles. Buy one now.   I’ve been around for 55 years paying attention, buying, selling but mostly keeping. I’m tickled. Have yet to see any really scary downturn. 
Get to having fun with us !!

[Jim Mead]

I agree with Ed. Wish I thought I had 25 more years.  Waiting for prices to decline vs. inflation is a fools game. 
I doubt it will happen. 
Another odd type of car is the old but well done at the time mechanical restoration that has carried the elderly owner 80 to 120,000 miles in the last 30 - 40 years.  Not sure that’s a recommendation or a hint that it all needs to be done again…..

[DGPoff]

1 minute ago, Jim Mead said:

I agree with Ed. Wish I thought I had 25 more years.  Waiting for prices to decline vs. inflation is a fools game. 
I doubt it will happen. 
Another odd type of car is the old but well done at the time mechanical restoration that has carried the elderly owner 80 to 120,000 miles in the last 30 - 40 years.  Not sure that’s a recommendation or a hint that it all needs to be done again…..

There are some great cars like that coming out again! Great observation. 
I think to get 100k miles in, it has to be kept up. The phase you hear “I have had every part of that car in my hands multiple times!”

 

Best way to find a car capable of big tours, is to find one that has.

[Jim Mead]

That too.  Depends on the car and the owner.  Part of the Chase…..

A gracious and enthusiastic prior owner will tell you which components will likely need to be held tenderly next. And in how many more miles. After all, you are being selected to continue what they began…..

[DGPoff]

1 hour ago, Jim Mead said:

That too.  Depends on the car and the owner.  Part of the Chase…..

A gracious and enthusiastic prior owner will tell you which components will likely need to be held tenderly next. And in how many more miles. After all, you are being selected to continue what they began…..

^^^^ This is exactly how I feel. Over 60, ready to retire and tour and continue someone’s story. Well stated Jim.

[jcrow]

Well I may be the odd man out. The last issue of the HCCA magazine that I looked at had

a twenty year old or younger person on every other page. When I started collecting in 1960,

my mentor told me Brass cars were "over" as few remembered them from their youth. I am

glad I didn't believe him.  What I did learn was that quality cars will grow in value and more

common cars will not. My advice is buy the best that you can afford. That is true for cars

of any age.

 

If you plan on touring, where the real fun is, buy something that can keep up.

 

Johnny

[mechanician]

6 hours ago, jcrow said:

Well I may be the odd man out. The last issue of the HCCA magazine that I looked at had

a twenty year old or younger person on every other page. When I started collecting in 1960,

my mentor told me Brass cars were "over" as few remembered them from their youth. I am

glad I didn't believe him.  What I did learn was that quality cars will grow in value and more

common cars will not. My advice is buy the best that you can afford. That is true for cars

of any age.

 

If you plan on touring, where the real fun is, buy something that can keep up.

 

Johnny

I agree. Brass may have a better long-term future than later eras.  Traditional "car guys" seem fewer in the under 30 crowd (but are still present), but brass cars seem to have an appeal beyond the typical gear head (ie. the "maker" enthusiasts, and renewed interest in traditional crafts etc which seem much more prevalent in that same generation than in the generations immediately before them).  It takes a different skill set and interest to keep brass cars, especially compared to post-war.  Perhaps I am more optimistic because I like brass.  Once you get past the idea of having zero parts support, you realize that you don't actually need any parts support for a brass car.

[Roger Garnett]

First - If you're looking for a financial investment, forget it. A brass car will probably maintain it's value +/- some. And inflation may wipe out any rise in price. That's not what you're here for. If you want investment, go talk to a investment broker. 

 

Second - What car, what kind? Something you enjoy. Find your local HCCA folks or other brass touring folks, and go for a ride. Hitch a seat on tour - many people have spare seats in a touring car, and some need a navigator for any car. HCCA and others are about touring, not showing so much. Get familiar with some of the cars and people out there.

 

Third - Big car, little car? 1, 2, 4 or more cylinders? 10, 20, 30, 40 HP? Most tours are for 4 cylinder cars, as there are more of them and they can go a little faster / further. While many 1-2 cylinder cars can't keep up on a 4 cylinder tour, some can. And we sometimes have a Curved Dash Olds along, who start early and stop less, and have a good time. There are also separate 1-2 cylinder tours, which are great fun for those cars. 

 

Fourth - How are your skills? These cars do require regular maintenance and fiddling. You need to be ready to do that, or pay someone to do it. Certainly more than post-war cars. Some finding or making parts, it's all part of the hobby. 

 

Fifth - Within the brass genre there's a wide range of cars. Early cars are less refined, later are more production based, and start to have amenities like electric lights and starters. Mid-era cars are brassy, pretty, and all over the ball park on mechanical designs and layout. Model T Fords are abundant, if you are worried about parts and documentation. 

 

Roger

 

[cudaman]

My priorities have shifted over the years.  I always avoided basket cases, but when I was younger and had more energy than money, I bought somewhat rough projects and put lots of sweat equity into hunting down missing parts, rebuilding the mechanicals, then spending more money than I planned on bodywork and paint.

 

Now, I spend more money up front to buy complete, running, "ten footer" cars that look presentable, are mostly complete, and can be driven right away without having to completely disassemble them first.  Even with those, there is still plenty to do fixing older "make do" repairs, replacing incorrect parts, and tidying up the loose ends. 

 

[Buzz68]

Older restorations or complete cars are best way if you want a car tinker with or enjoy buying a car in pieces witch I've done is big mistake unless you got or have access to complete fab shop

[rprice76]

So I'm relatively 'new' here, but have been a long time old car owner.  I'm not ancient by any means, but I am in that mid-life thing we all have (at 48).  I grew up around T's and A's and even took my driver's test in a 21 T Roadster when I was 16 (1992).  That being said, I've always been a T guy though I always wanted an older car.  I've owned just about ever era of classic car, from  T's, to A's, my dad's flatheads after he passed (1937 Humback 4-dr sedan and 1932 V8 Roadster), skipped the 40's and early 50's, owned several Edsels, and was also into VW's.  That being said - I have never been able to own a brass car until now.  Just sold my 58 Edsel so I could buy a brass era car.

 

Why did it take me so long to get here?

 

I have no idea.  It isn't that they are rare, but they are pricy, and that can be a bit of a rub.  The one thing I've learned about pricy cars is the way to get into them is to either 'work your way' through buying and restoring and trading up in cars, or save money until you can afford one.  Some are just well out of your price range, but that doesn't mean 'Good' brass cars aren't out there!

 

For me I always wanted an early brass car.  Dad was 'into it' but never pulled the trigger - closest we got was a 15 T Roadster (restored).  So recently I began a search.  I found a local 1905 REO (in pieces), and a few other cars, but then found a little 1911 Maxwell AB.  I go pick it up in a week or so.

 

Now...is it a big beautiful brass car??  I can't afford that, but this little Maxwell will make me quite happy.  Has plenty of brass, charm, and a little 2 cylinder engine that will put-put-put me along at a nice 25mph (if I'm lucky).  It needs work - has been sitting since the 1960's but its complete and has lots of documentation with it (original owner letter from the Maxwell company to boot!).  Did I overpay?  Probably, but it is EXACTLY what I wanted and thats what matters to me.

 

The hardest thing with anything that is 90+ years old is finding one that is COMPLETE and not mucked with.  Complete AND  Running?  You may get lucky and find one that has been well maintained and in the price range you are looking for, but you need to move fast on them when you do.  Take someone who knows brass cars with you when you look at them and make certain you go in with your eyes open as to what you are getting.

 

If you are looking in the 20k range you could try Maxwells, Hupmobiles, REO, and maybe some of the slightly bigger cars, but they will more than likely need restorations at that price.  For 'ease' of getting into brass era, you can't beat a good old fashioned Pre 1916 Model T.  Just about every part is availible.  

 

Keep looking and be patient.  The one lesson I've learned is - you don't live forever. So I intend to enjoy what I have, and get the most out of it!

 

 

 

 

[Larry Schramm]

Welcome to the Horsless Carriage world.  Join the HCCA and the AACA if you have not already done so.  Lots of help in both places.