What seems to be the shop rate these days to restore a CCCA classic car??

[1935Packard]

5 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

It is probably worth noting that the Packard I posted above with invoices was going to Pebble Beach. The restoration was expressly commissioned with a Pebble BoS in mind. I looked at a few of the details on one of the invoices and it was something like, "wet sand and polish the back of the hood vent doors."  So while the numbers are truly astronomical, they are also far beyond what is actually required to be considered a "restoration," even to a relatively high standard. There are plenty of 100-point CCCA Classics running around that would get laughed off the show field at Pebble. It's just not the same world.

 

And that wasn't even a monthly invoice.  The $180,000 bill only covered 2 weeks! 

 

I had the engine rebuilt for my 12 from that particular shop, around that same time, and just seeing that invoice format again gave me flashbacks. My 12 is a driver that has peeling 70s paint and 70s vinyl seats, and 90% of what they did for me was only the rebuild.  But still, I was always super nervous opening that envelope.  I think my highest monthly invoice was $20k, which for me was like, um, ohhhh boy.  That shop does great work, and the engine on my 12 has been perfect since the rebuilt (including today, when I was out for a drive).  But man, it's not cheap.

[edinmass]

11 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

It is probably worth noting that the Packard I posted above with invoices was going to Pebble Beach. The restoration was expressly commissioned with a Pebble BoS in mind. I looked at a few of the details on one of the invoices and it was something like, "wet sand and polish the back of the hood vent doors."  So while the numbers are truly astronomical, they are also far beyond what is actually required to be considered a "restoration," even to a relatively high standard. There are plenty of 100-point CCCA Classics running around that would get laughed off the show field at Pebble. It's just not the same world.

 

That car could never win BOS at Pebble. It's the lest desirable of the Custom Dietrich Packards, and there are a bunch of them. Maybe in the 50's or 60's. Today......not gonna happen. Visiting the Pebble show is one thing. Having competed there I can tell you most car guys don't even have a good read on what will do well. Bring a world class car there with a perfect 100 point restoration, and maybe.......just maybe a third in class trophy will drop in your hands. It's impossible to communicate the level of stuff you are going up against. It's the big picture most people can't grasp. Just when you think you have the class in your back pocket......out come the ribbons and you go home empty handed. Restoration costs aren't the only problem.........lack of willing workers to spend a lifetime in a shop doing manual labor at any price is the problem. Restoring cars is totally different than fixing cars or doing crash repairs. Fact of the matter is.......if you're smart enough & talented enough to do Pebble quality work........you're smart enough not to want to do it. 

 

Edited April 1 by edinmass (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

13 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

was something like, "wet sand and polish the back of the hood vent doors."  So while the numbers are truly astronomical, they are also far beyond what is actually required to be considered a "restoration," even to a relatively high standard.

My daily driver is a 2005 Avalanche that was conscientiously maintained by the original owner at his regular shop. I have the full bundle of receipts from that shop since new. In some circles it is regarded as a collectible vehicle. That shop had installed a complete set of brake lines for the previous owner. I spent a good chunk of Friday and some of Saturday reinstalling the extremities without tie wraps. They weren't falling off or anything like that but I used and drill, assorted bits, a tap. Had that type of installation been requested the reply would have been "That's not going to be cheap". I always wondered about the origin of that phrase.

Two of the tie wraps were black. I cut them before this topic started. When I cut them I thought "Black tie wraps. Those are for the high end jobs."

 

"That's not going to be cheap."

"That's not going to be easy".

 

The one I am most threatened by is "I think I can save you some money" which means "I have a plan to give you less than you wanted".

 

I will go along with the comment that the shop rate is not bad, it's just the time it took to get the job done.

[Scott Bonesteel]

Very interesting thread about the top 1% of the top 1% of this hobby/business/passion.  Restoration/material costs here in Southern California are similarly high and there is the same problem of trying to find someone who is willing (and knowledgeable enough) to 'do the job right'. (P.S., loved 60FlatTop's comment about black tie wraps being only for the 'high end jobs').  I have never thought about the hundreds of skinned knuckles or thousands of hours and dollars I have put into my couple of 34s, except on individual purchases of parts that made both me and my wife wince.  It is sad that the economics make it largely unfeasible to bring back pre-war (and some post-war) cars to a high caliber of restoration unless one can do a large portion of the work themselves--and, amazingly, there remain the few that can still do so in their jam-packed two car garage.  Certainly not PBeach level but that is, as described above repeatedly, another world.  In my world, there is the 70's motto of some car publication which was 'Fun with Cars', the photos of one contributor to this forum showing him blasting around I believe Florida in an original finish 34 Buick convertible, and the conclusion that when I 'finish' my 34 PE convertible coupe I am going to do the same in primer and remnants of original paint.  

[edinmass]

4 hours ago, Scott Bonesteel said:

Very interesting thread about the top 1% of the top 1% of this hobby/business/passion.  Restoration/material costs here in Southern California are similarly high and there is the same problem of trying to find someone who is willing (and knowledgeable enough) to 'do the job right'. (P.S., loved 60FlatTop's comment about black tie wraps being only for the 'high end jobs').  I have never thought about the hundreds of skinned knuckles or thousands of hours and dollars I have put into my couple of 34s, except on individual purchases of parts that made both me and my wife wince.  It is sad that the economics make it largely unfeasible to bring back pre-war (and some post-war) cars to a high caliber of restoration unless one can do a large portion of the work themselves--and, amazingly, there remain the few that can still do so in their jam-packed two car garage.  Certainly not PBeach level but that is, as described above repeatedly, another world.  In my world, there is the 70's motto of some car publication which was 'Fun with Cars', the photos of one contributor to this forum showing him blasting around I believe Florida in an original finish 34 Buick convertible, and the conclusion that when I 'finish' my 34 PE convertible coupe I am going to do the same in primer and remnants of original paint.  

 

Scott.....the 34 Buick convertiable is me........😀.........I do Pebble cars all week long, I have now passed over to the other side. The last 5 cars I bought were all original or an early 50's restoration that looks original now. I absolutely hate cleaning, detailing, and polishing cars. The 34 Buick was at Amelia in the "Barn Find Class" and got as much attention as a restored Packard 12. Had a great time with it on the tour, and I must confess......driving past the half dozen trailer queens broke down on the side of the road put a smile on my face. Most importantly the car only has to please the owner.........not the attendies of the show. 2/3 of the people ask me..."when you gonna restore it".........the answer is I will start the day after I wash it.......and I intend NEVER TO WASH THE CAR AS LONG AS I OWN IT!. We dusted it off after seven decades of sitting...........it will never see a wash or detail as long as I own it. I just simply don't care and enjoy. it exactly the way it is!

 

 

 

 

Edited April 1 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Scott Bonesteel]

10 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

Scott.....the 34 Buick convertiable is me........😀.........I do Pebble cars all week long, I have now passed over to the other side. The last 5 cars I bought were all original or an early 50's restoration that looks original now. I absolutely hate cleaning, detailing, and polishing cars. The 34 Buick was at Amelia in the "Barn Find Class" and got as much attention as a restored Packard 12. Had a great time with it on the tour, and I must confess......driving past the half dozen trailer queens broke down on the side of the road put a smile on my face. Most importantly the car only has to please the owner.........not the attendies of the show. 2/3 of the people ask me..."when you gonna restore it".........the answer is I will start the day after I wash it.......and I intend NEVER TO WASH THE CAR AS LONG AS I OWN IT!. We dusted it off after seven decades of sitting...........it will never see a wash or detail as long as I own it. I just simply don't care and enjoy. it exactly the way it is!

 

 

 

 

LOVE THAT BUICK.  Have always liked 33-34 Buicks but I am not enough of a carpenter to take on a Buick of that vintage.  Have to be satisfied with my 34 Mopars and their almost wood-free construction.  Your post and mine sum up my sentiments exactly on the current limits on restorations imposed by the $$$ involved.  Keep on driving and stop in if you ever get out San Diego way.

[TAKerry]

Ed, although my car is nice and shiny, and the one I am working on will be nice and shiny I too abhor polishing, waxing and cleaning cars!! In my younger days I would spend more time shining than driving. Now I could care less. I have been to several shows without as much as washing my car first. It was a good thing that the first part of Hershey was a washout, gave me a good excuse to have a dirty car, LOL. I try to get my son to keep them clean.  I have a nearing antique harley (24 yrs old) that I call my driver bike. I have been all over parts of the country with it. Runs like a top but is plane ugly by todays standards. It has a carb and a 5 speed, most guys riding a new harley probably dont know this kind of thing exists! I was riding with a couple of people with new, bright and shiny bikes, one of them asked when I was going to wash mine. My answer was the next time I get caught in the rain!

[Bhigdog]

16 hours ago, TAKerry said:

Ed, although my car is nice and shiny, and the one I am working on will be nice and shiny I too abhor polishing, waxing and cleaning cars!! In my younger days I would spend more time shining than driving. Now I could care less. I have been to several shows without as much as washing my car first. It was a good thing that the first part of Hershey was a washout, gave me a good excuse to have a dirty car, LOL. I try to get my son to keep them clean.  I have a nearing antique harley (24 yrs old) that I call my driver bike. I have been all over parts of the country with it. Runs like a top but is plane ugly by todays standards. It has a carb and a 5 speed, most guys riding a new harley probably dont know this kind of thing exists! I was riding with a couple of people with new, bright and shiny bikes, one of them asked when I was going to wash mine. My answer was the next time I get caught in the rain!

To each his own  i guess, but at some point charming patina devolves into neglect, dirt, and grime. Hoping you guys take care of your own body better than you take care of your car's...bob

Edited April 2 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[TTR]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

Scott.....the 34 Buick convertiable is me........😀.........I do Pebble cars all week long, I have now passed over to the other side. The last 5 cars I bought were all original or an early 50's restoration that looks original now. I absolutely hate cleaning, detailing, and polishing cars. The 34 Buick was at Amelia in the "Barn Find Class" and got as much attention as a restored Packard 12. Had a great time with it on the tour, and I must confess......driving past the half dozen trailer queens broke down on the side of the road put a smile on my face. Most importantly the car only has to please the owner.........not the attendies of the show. 2/3 of the people ask me..."when you gonna restore it".........the answer is I will start the day after I wash it.......and I intend NEVER TO WASH THE CAR AS LONG AS I OWN IT!. We dusted it off after seven decades of sitting...........it will never see a wash or detail as long as I own it. I just simply don't care and enjoy. it exactly the way it is!

 

 

 

 

Welcome to my world, sort of.

 

While I’ve been making a living restoring vintage cars to relatively high standards (i.e. probably PB acceptable, if not BoS extent) for over 30 years, extremely protective and at times overly comcerned of my clients cars and their well being, i.e. cleanliness, condition, etc, I’ve also owned dozens of (vintage) cars and driven them for several hundred thousand combined miles in past 45 or so and have always mostly owned unrestored, “preservation/survivor” examples (long before either became fashionable term and just despise term “barn find”).

 

But then again, I’ve never bought, owned (or much “showed”) my personal cars.
I’ve always acquired/had them for my personal enjoyment only.
While I occasionally clean them, perhaps once a year on average, I don’t go out of my to do so, as I know it won’t make them run or drive any better and since I don’t really care whether or not others like them, I don’t worry if they appear dirty and used, or should I say, well enjoyed. 
I also don’t go out of my way to abuse or neglect them either.

 

P.S. I also don’t “hate”, let alone “absolutely”, anyone or anything in this world. Not worth it and life’s too short for such. I sincerely hope you’ll get over that too.

 

 

 

Edited April 1 by TTR (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

12 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

That car could never win BOS at Pebble. It's the lest desirable of the Custom Dietrich Packards, and there are a bunch of them. Maybe in the 50's or 60's. Today......not gonna happen. Visiting the Pebble show is one thing. Having competed there I can tell you most car guys don't even have a good read on what will do well. Bring a world class car there with a perfect 100 point restoration, and maybe.......just maybe a third in class trophy will drop in your hands. It's impossible to communicate the level of stuff you are going up against. It's the big picture most people can't grasp. Just when you think you have the class in your back pocket......out come the ribbons and you go home empty handed. Restoration costs aren't the only problem.........lack of willing workers to spend a lifetime in a shop doing manual labor at any price is the problem. Restoring cars is totally different than fixing cars or doing crash repairs. Fact of the matter is.......if you're smart enough & talented enough to do Pebble quality work........you're smart enough not to want to do it. 

 

 

Sounds similar the Riddler Award at the Detroit Autorama auto show.

[keithb7]

I’m not in the big leagues. I figuratively play ball in a local beer league. Its fun to keep my cars going. It’s great fun to drive them and meet new people. I’ve learned so much. When I’m feeling brave someday, I might actually tackle bodywork and paint. I already know I’ll be great at making a mess of it. 
 

My ‘38 Plymouth is now reliable and safe. I drive it often. I’ve pretty-much run out of talent. I’ve exercised all my skill sets here at home. Bodywork , paint and upholstery are not on my list of skills. Yet I may still give it a go. Trophies are not on my radar. Having fun and feeling good about my work is the goal.  In time, we shall see how far I’ll go. 
 

The going shop rate rate here is measured by motivation. It comes and goes.

 

Edited April 2 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[Dr B]

In my view, the best part of these types of show cars is after the restoration is done and all the trophies have been collected and the owner who opened his (or her) checkbook to pay for it all is ready to move on to their next show winner (think race horse that is no longer competitive). They're ready to unload the car at a price where you pay a fraction of the restoration costs and get a car for free! If you're not interested in showing the car but want to drive and enjoy it, you can get an amazing deal. 

 

Robert

Edited April 2 by Dr B (see edit history)

[Scott Bonesteel]

7 hours ago, Bhigdog said:

To each his own  i guess, but at some point charming patina devolves into neglect, dirt, and grime. Hoping you guys take care of your own body better than you take care of your car,s...bob

I probably have taken care of my body about as well as I have taken care of my cars.  They may not be perfect but I sure have had a lot of fun with both of them.

[Dandy Dave]

On 3/31/2024 at 9:19 PM, Bhigdog said:

So, in other words, pebble beach, is not really a car show but is rather a bank roll and ego show.

I think the award shouldn,t be called the Best of Show but rather Biggest of Show.

Any suggestions for a suitable design for the trophy?....bob

 

I was behind a pickup truck a few days ago and these dangly things were hanging underneath that inferred it was a male. I think a pair of those gold plated would be about right for the Biggest Trophy. 😜 

[John Bloom]

9 hours ago, keithb7 said:

I’m not in the big leagues. I figuratively play ball in a local beer league. Its fun to keep my cars going. It’s great fun to drive them and meet new people. I’ve learned so much. When I’m feeling brave someday, I might actually tackle bodywork and paint. I already know I’ll be great at making a mess of it. 
 

My ‘38 Plymouth is now reliable and safe. I drive it often. I’ve pretty-much run out of talent. I’ve exercised all my skill sets here at home. Bodywork , paint and upholstery are not on my list of skills. Yet I may still give it a go. Trophies are not on my radar. Having fun and feeling good about my work is the goal.  In time, we shall see how far I’ll go. 
 

The going shop rate rate here is measured by motivation. It comes and goes.

 

My favorite post of this thread.  I think you speak for a lot of us.  

[Dandy Dave]

14 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

Scott.....the 34 Buick convertiable is me........😀.........I do Pebble cars all week long, I have now passed over to the other side. The last 5 cars I bought were all original or an early 50's restoration that looks original now. I absolutely hate cleaning, detailing, and polishing cars. The 34 Buick was at Amelia in the "Barn Find Class" and got as much attention as a restored Packard 12. Had a great time with it on the tour, and I must confess......driving past the half dozen trailer queens broke down on the side of the road put a smile on my face. Most importantly the car only has to please the owner.........not the attendies of the show. 2/3 of the people ask me..."when you gonna restore it".........the answer is I will start the day after I wash it.......and I intend NEVER TO WASH THE CAR AS LONG AS I OWN IT!. We dusted it off after seven decades of sitting...........it will never see a wash or detail as long as I own it. I just simply don't care and enjoy. it exactly the way it is!

 

 

 

 

You and I both Ed. I guess that makes us the 1% of 1% on the other end of the scale. I'm not going to wash off my 25 White either. I've seen enough shiny chrome and polish. Give me the ones that are true barn finds or right off of the old farm hedge row and show the crowd how to make it sing and run reliably. We are a rare breed. 

[Skvitt]

35 minutes ago, John Bloom said:

My favorite post of this thread.  I think you speak for a lot of us.  

I'll second that!

[Dandy Dave]

13 hours ago, Bhigdog said:

To each his own  i guess, but at some point charming patina devolves into neglect, dirt, and grime. Hoping you guys take care of your own body better than you take care of your car,s...bob

I takes a bath once a month whether I needs it or not. 😉 More often when the wife's around. 😁 I even shaves when the whiskers start itchen, or the wife say's they scratch when we're kissing. 🥰 

Edited April 2 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[mechanician]

From an operational perspective, I would bet that Ed's Buick is in far better "health" than 90+% of the show cars, restored or not, on any concourse show field...

[TAKerry]

14 hours ago, Bhigdog said:

To each his own  i guess, but at some point charming patina devolves into neglect, dirt, and grime. Hoping you guys take care of your own body better than you take care of your car,s...bob

Unlike the beautiful roadster that Ed has, my vehicles are not a subject of patina yet, and they def are not neglected. I just hate to wash and wax. As for my body, well thats a whole 'nother story!

[Bhigdog]

1 hour ago, TAKerry said:

I just hate to wash and wax. As for my body, well thats a whole 'nother story!

I'm with you on the wash and wax. As for my body, at age 84 I fix what I can and to the rest just say "whatever"...............Bob

[7th Son]

12 hours ago, edinmass said:

.....and I intend NEVER TO WASH THE CAR AS LONG AS I OWN IT!. We dusted it off after seven decades of sitting...........it will never see a wash or detail as long as I own it. I just simply don't care and enjoy. it exactly the way it is!

 

I guess we need to establish a new classification: "RAT CLASSIC"

 

Old and well worn is one thing, intentionally kept rusty, dusty, and dirty is another.

 

 

 

[Ed Luddy]

Lot's of interesting comments on here. As I don't normally dabble in Pre-War cars I generally stay out of these conversations.

 But a friend recently passed away with some vehicles left to be finished and I'm trying to help get a reasonable price for his widow on his long term restoration 1935 REO Royale. The chassis is all restored properly. Engine and transmission rebuilt and running. Body is all there including all trim minus rear bumper. Interior has to be finished. Seat frames are good and all new correct upholstery is included but not put together. She has decided to just sell it instead of trying to find someone to finish it. I think its at least yard drivable. So, my question is where to list it, and price? 

 I'll probably start a thread on here.

Thanks in advance for any input!

Edited April 2 by Ed Luddy
spelling (see edit history)

[63RedBrier]

On 4/2/2024 at 4:11 PM, Ed Luddy said:

Lot's of interesting comments on here. As I don't normally dabble in Pre-War cars I generally stay out of these conversations.

 But a friend recently passed away with some vehicles left to be finished and I'm trying to help get a reasonable price for his widow on his long term restoration 1935 REO Royale. The chassis is all restored properly. Engine and transmission rebuilt and running. Body is all there including all trim minus rear bumper. Interior has to be finished. Seat frames are good and all new correct upholstery is included but not put together. She has decided to just sell it instead of trying to find someone to finish it. I think its at least yard drivable. So, my question is where to list it, and price? 

 I'll probably start a thread on here.

Thanks in advance for any input!

List it right here, Ed!  Location?  The widow must have a ball park price in mind, no?  Post some photos…

[kar3516]

2 hours ago, 63RedBrier said:

List it right here, Ed!  Location?  The widow must have a ball park price in mind, no?  Post some photos…

Here you go…