What seems to be the shop rate these days to restore a CCCA classic car??

[34LaSalleClubSedan]

I know prices are crazy these days to restore a pre- WW2 classic car and have it done correctly to the highest standards. Paint, chrome, engine work, upholstery, etc. All have gone up.

I know the big boy shops are booked with the billionaires and not afraid to charge them so they can win Pebble, other national events and a trophy. 

But in the real world, someone willing to pay for great work. What do you guys think per hour??? A real restoration shop with employee's, and not a backyard mechanic

Thanks, Jim 

[Matt Harwood]

I might refer you to the receipts in this auction (which, for a true comparison, are 14 years old). It may also be worth noting that they started with a previously restored car.

 

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1934-packard-1108-twelve-dietrich-individual-custom-convertible-sedan/

 

Here's a preview of just one invoice, out of perhaps 30 or 40:

 

[nick8086]

I have not restore a car in a long time..

 

But I can tell the shop rates I have paid..

 

11.00 an hour.

 

100.00 an hour

 

198.00 an hour..

 

Price oil changes on a luxury car. You can spend 350.00 to 980.00 just to change oil.. lol..

 

 

Edited March 31 by nick8086 (see edit history)

[Akstraw]

$65 to $95 seems to be the going rate within my circles right now, for those shops that can actually find good employees and have available capacity.  I am sure there are wide variations across the country.

[34LaSalleClubSedan]

32 minutes ago, Akstraw said:

$65 to $95 seems to be the going rate within my circles right now, for those shops that can actually find good employees and have available capacity.  I am sure there are wide variations across the country.

Thanks

52 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

I might refer you to the receipts in this auction (which, for a true comparison, are 14 years old). It may also be worth noting that they started with a previously restored car.

 

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1934-packard-1108-twelve-dietrich-individual-custom-convertible-sedan/

 

Here's a preview of just one invoice, out of perhaps 30 or 40:

 

Thanks Matt

[7th Son]

Shops in the Northwest will quote $100,000. for starters, without having seen the car. If that doesn't scare the customer away, they'll ask for detailed photos or for you to bring the car by (no "house call" estimates). Labor alone could eat up most, if nor all, of that $100k. and then add parts and supplies   ...and that was for an early '30's non-running but "complete" mid-level orphan sedan (non "big three").

 

That's probably why common project cars aren't selling except to the DIY crowd.

 

 

 

Edited March 31 by 7th Son (see edit history)

[34LaSalleClubSedan]

48 minutes ago, 7th Son said:

Shops in the Northwest will quote $100,000. for starters, without having seen the car. If that doesn't scare the customer away, they'll ask for detailed photos or for you to bring the car by (no "house call" estimates). Labor alone could eat up most, if nor all, of that $100k. and then add parts and supplies   ...and that was for an early '30's non-running but "complete" mid-level orphan sedan (non "big three").

 

That's probably why common project cars aren't selling except to the DIY crowd.

 

 

 

Thanks

1 hour ago, Akstraw said:

$65 to $95 seems to be the going rate within my circles right now, for those shops that can actually find good employees and have available capacity.  I am sure there are wide variations across the country.

Thanks

1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

I might refer you to the receipts in this auction (which, for a true comparison, are 14 years old). It may also be worth noting that they started with a previously restored car.

 

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1934-packard-1108-twelve-dietrich-individual-custom-convertible-sedan/

 

Here's a preview of just one invoice, out of perhaps 30 or 40:

 

Thanks Matt

[Motorpirate]

6 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

I might refer you to the receipts in this auction (which, for a true comparison, are 14 years old). It may also be worth noting that they started with a previously restored car.

 

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1934-packard-1108-twelve-dietrich-individual-custom-convertible-sedan/

 

Here's a preview of just one invoice, out of perhaps 30 or 40:

 

that's only $98.00 an hour.

My shop was $65.00 an hour 25 years ago.

Would take at LEAST $150.00 an hour to get me off the couch..

[Fordy]

Australian rates seem to start at A$180 per hour (117 US$)

Steve

[alsancle]

Jim, Shop rate is only part of the equation. All the different subcontractors have become very expensive and they are much less of them. Chrome, generator, starter, upholstery guys, etc.

 

Also just for a data point on materials, I just wrote a check yesterday for a gallon of clear and a gallon of harder. $1545 total.  my car took 4.5 gallons of paint, the paint is another $700 a gallon.  So just to buy the paint, Hardner and clear is well over $5000. Mix in  1000 hours of bodywork ( minimum), another 5 to 10,000 in miscellaneous materials. And you’re looking at 100 to 130 K to paint a big classic these days.
 

I will absolutely never paint a car again. And definitely never a full restoration ever again.

[TAKerry]

4 hours ago, Motorpirate said:

that's only $98.00 an hour.

My shop was $65.00 an hour 25 years ago.

Would take at LEAST $150.00 an hour to get me off the couch..

That invoice was 14 years old.  I am sure they are up to 150. now!

[alsancle]

To actually answer the question,  I pay 75/hr to the owner of the shop,  less to other guys depending on who it is.  Shops have finally wised up to the idea that "shop rate" is a dumb idea when you have a superstar making big salary and a 21 year old kid pushing a broom.  You typically see a staggered rate now based on who clocked the hours.

[Walt G]

10 hours ago, Akstraw said:

for those shops that can actually find good employees and have available capacity

This is a major factor. If you can find them also consider if they are full time you have to pay health insurance, etc.

I am not justifying what seem to be the huge cost but what did you pay to have work done on your modern car at a local repair shop that you use that does quality work? I use a shop for the modern cars that is owned/run by a pair of brothers who were my former students - thus I know what is being done is correct and no extra charges. It isn't cheap. But you pay for what you expect is the right thing and will last.

I have been to the shop that the invoice is for and all I can say is "nil melior" - none finer. Great attitude by the people employed. The owner is a true "old car guy" and is as crazy as the rest of us.

Think of the cost of other things - how many reading this go to Hershey every October - cost to get there, the hotel, food and all there to look at used obsolete car parts................

Edited March 31 by Walt G (see edit history)

[CarNucopia]

25 minutes ago, Walt G said:

This is a major factor. If you can find them also consider if they are full time you have to pay health insurance, etc.

 

I owned a business that had a shop rate for the purpose of pricing out jobs. You are correct, and there are other costs to employ people like FICA, vacation time, workman's comp and so on. The rule of thumb at the time, 20 years ago, was you multiply a person's hourly wage by 1.3 to get close to your actual cost. Then you need to mark it up. I'd wager that number has grown. Another complication is, the more experienced they are, the older they are and the more their health insurance costs you.

Edited March 31 by CarNucopia (see edit history)

[John348]

Another forgotten cost is shipping, which had to be about 15-20% of the final cost of my projects, and mine were DIY's, except for the paint and chrome. Shops on either coast can have a higher cost factor built in then those in center of the country.

 

All we can hope for is long after the price of the restoration is forgotten the quality remains, and it always brings a smile when you look at finished product for years to come. 

Good luck with your search. 

[edinmass]

Rates vary by location............Here in Palm Beach the Rolls/Bentley dealer is 425 an hour flat rate. That's a 900 dollar basic alignment folks. Not shims or cradle adjustment. 

 

Restore a car in a major metropolitian area like NYC, LA, Miami............and get good experienced workers for PRE WAR CARS............it's gonna be CRAZY expensive. Post war cars are fifty times easier to deal with......yes, they are that much easier. Want Pebble Beach quality work for a pre war classic CCCA car? It is ONE MILLION DOLLARS OR MORE TODAY........YES, ONE MILLION OR MORE. And that's starting with a very good car with no missing parts. Another point......restoration shops today can and do restore cars that look good. Most cars coming out of restoration need 50k to 75k to go down the road once they are off the show circuit. Now understand this is for achieving as close to perfection as possible. That's why 99 percent of the cars out there run and drive like crap. I could go on........but it's a sad fact today that pre war cars are very expensive to own and maintain today. Look at the cost of a new crew cab dually oil burner......120k & add in a 45k trailer. Times and prices are evolving. Buying the car is going to get cheaper. Owning one is going to drag you down.........I do this for a living, and speak to the shop owners and workers........trust me, they realize it also. 

 

Need a smile? It's cheaper, faster, and easier to get divorced than it is to restore a 1934 Packard Super Eight. It's also less aggravation. We won't talk about the 12's.

[3macboys]

Least one think that the owners of the shops are making a fortune at those rates I'll offer this for perspective - I used to manage a small government fleet of light duty vehicles- around 30 vehicles and we used all dealer service.  Another municipality with a much larger fleet did all their work in house and as part of their due diligence had calculated the cost of their door rate factoring in heat/hydro labor etc and they were only about $10 an hour cheaper than we were paying at the dealership - and that's without having to pay the capital cost of the building or property taxes!  I know that there will be the argument about government workers making more etc but all in there are not large margins for the shops.  A good rule use to be that an employee cost was the hourly rate x 1.5 and it's not just that one person doing the physical work as @alsancle mentioned, there's the guy cleaning up, the office staff, the person sourcing and stocking parts and materials and on and on before anything hits the owner's pocket.  I might add that I expect running a restoration shop and dealing with the car owners is bit like dealing with a wedding bride.  

[erichill]

I could easily see a shop with knowledged employees doing skilled work that is not easily replaced with another having to charge $120 plus an hour if not more. I run a business that my average employee is making $20/hr and I have to charge $70-$80 an hour to cover my  overhead. Granted my business is outdoors so I have to figure in rain days,  You figure  skilled metal shaper or exert painter is make $40-50 an hour or more.

[Larry Schramm]

The dealership labor rates from what I have heard are about $180.00/hour here in the Detroit area which are probably representative of any large metro area.

[1912Staver]

You guys are really depressing me. I used to think that I just had to win any old lottery to own an old car. Now it looks like a Powerball win is needed.

[Angelfish]

15 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

You guys are really depressing me. I used to think that I just had to win any old lottery to own an old car. Now it looks like a Powerball win is needed.

Seems like the price of these old cars, at least the common ones, is on the way down.  I’ve found many 50s American cars in daily driver condition in the $7000-15,000 range.  
 

My problem is that buying a good runner that only needs a little maintenance seems like cheating.  You need to earn antique car through suffering, despair, false hope, domestic disruption, blood loss and learning French words. 

[BobinVirginia]

1 minute ago, Angelfish said:

Seems like the price of these old cars, at least the common ones, is on the way down.  I’ve found many 50s American cars in daily driver condition in the $7000-15,000 range.  
 

My problem is that buying a good runner that only needs a little maintenance seems like cheating.  You need to earn antique car through suffering, despair, false hope, domestic disruption, blood loss and learning French words. 

I’ve done all but the French! 😂 

[Leif in Calif]

28 minutes ago, Larry Schramm said:

The dealership labor rates from what I have heard are about $180.00/hour here in the Detroit area which are probably representative of any large metro area.

I'm an hour North of San Francisco in a farm town where the tallest building is a grain elevator. The local Chevy dealer gets $220 an hour and a grand daughter is working at In-n- Out Burger. She gets $22.50/hr.  

[BobinVirginia]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

Rates vary by location............Here in Palm Beach the Rolls/Bentley dealer is 425 an hour flat rate. That's a 900 dollar basic alignment folks. Not shims or cradle adjustment. 

 

Restore a car in a major metropolitian area like NYC, LA, Miami............and get good experienced workers for PRE WAR CARS............it's gonna be CRAZY expensive. Post war cars are fifty times easier to deal with......yes, they are that much easier. Want Pebble Beach quality work for a pre war classic CCCA car? It is ONE MILLION DOLLARS OR MORE TODAY........YES, ONE MILLION OR MORE. And that's starting with a very good car with no missing parts. Another point......restoration shops today can and do restore cars that look good. Most cars coming out of restoration need 50k to 75k to go down the road once they are off the show circuit. Now understand this is for achieving as close to perfection as possible. That's why 99 percent of the cars out there run and drive like crap. I could go on........but it's a sad fact today that pre war cars are very expensive to own and maintain today. Look at the cost of a new crew cab dually oil burner......120k & add in a 45k trailer. Times and prices are evolving. Buying the car is going to get cheaper. Owning one is going to drag you down.........I do this for a living, and speak to the shop owners and workers........trust me, they realize it also. 

 

Need a smile? It's cheaper, faster, and easier to get divorced than it is to restore a 1934 Packard Super Eight. It's also less aggravation. We won't talk about the 12's.

What would be a realistic materials cost for such a restoration? Seems that cost alone would be out of reach for most even if somehow magically a person could do all aspects of the restoration. 

[plymouthcranbrook]

The old chestnut seems to apply here” If you have to ask how much, you cannot afford it”

[Fordy]

6 hours ago, 3macboys said:

I might add that I expect running a restoration shop and dealing with the car owners is bit like dealing with a wedding bride.  

Oh how true that statement is!!

Steve

[Crusty Trucker]

I guess it's about time to start collecting clocks and leave the cars to the one-percenters.

Might need to invest in a new rocking chair, but at least my fingernails will be clean.

 

 

 

[Walt G]

Cost of supplies: in 1972-74 I did a frame up restoration on two cars of mine , a 1931 Franklin Derham bodied victoria brougham and a 1941 Packard 120 station wagon. The cost of a gallon of nitrocellulose lacquer then was $150 a gallon - I imported it from England ( Bellco brand) because it was the exact right color also used on a current car being made then that matched the color of the old cars when new ( remember I am an art teacher so knew/know how to match/view colors) add to that gallons of lacquer thinner of good / proper quality , assorted grades of sand paper, and compound ( liquid and paste) . All this for the exterior sheet metal , chassis paint etc was all another job.

[TTR]

Another way to look at a complete/full restoration of almost ANY CAR is that in most cases where it has all its reusable coach work, mechanical, trim, etc components & parts in relatively nice condition, it will take several  thousand hours of labor to disassemble, refurbish and re-assemble all of them, no matter who does it.

Only variable will be quality vs labor rate and price of replacement parts. Basic "supply" costs are same, regardless of subject vehicle, size of the subject notwithstanding.

 

Most people don’t seem to understand some basic/ simple facts associated with restorations, for example, to prep & paint a large prewar car or ‘50s/‘60s limousine will take more time and material to do than, let’s say any vintage Ferrari, including the iconic 250 GTO (which are valued at $50M-$80M each) which in turn has closer to same amount of paintable surface area of a, let's say '64 Corsair, Corvette or '65 Mustang convertible.

Or the fact that most late-‘50s American mid-to-high priced luxury production cars have much more chrome/aluminum/stainless bright trim than just about any prewar full classic, hence the plating and polishing costs for former should be expected to be considerably higher.
 

OTOH, '50s/'60s vintage Ferraris or similar sports cars, for example, are much smaller (= less body & paint work labor or materials), have very little trim and relatively simple interiors, yet can easily cost $500K and up to restore, but many may and have required $1M+.

 

Etc, etc, etc…

 

And let’s not forget the fact that “complete/full restoration” is and has always been THE most commonly misused phrase or reference in this hobby.

“Rebuilt” is not too far behind. 

 

And yet most adult and/or allegedly well educated vintage car enthusiasts or their chosen restorers just fail to consider or understand all this.

Now that’s mind boggling.

 

Edited March 31 by TTR (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

Shop rates really never had much relevance on my participation in the hobby. By the time I reached my late 20's I had been disappointed by "work done by others" that I just bought tools and became willing to do the job as many times as it took to make me happy.

 

Eventually I realized how fast time passes and began to buy good cars less than 25 years old and age with them. The first one of those I bought was when I was 29 years old. It was 15. In May I will have owned it 46 years. In 2011 I bought a clean 26 year old car. It is 37 years old.

 

My wife and her sisters are big quilt hobbyists. If I told her I wanted to get into the quilt hobby and asked how much it would cost for someone to make me a quilt I know I would get the evil eye. Some do it, just outside my hobby paradigm.

 

To put labor costs into perspective, owners of large rental units in suburban areas near me screen renters carefully. They know who can afford to live in their units. A single person will be denied an apartment if the annual income is not a minimum of $50,000. 250 working days per year make that a minimum $25 per hour job. They have a good handle on who can't afford the rent.

 

People with hobby cars they keep indoors have always been relatively wealthy. In the 1950s and 60s they were professionals or two income families. Many funded the hobby with untaxed income from various industries. And today their dollars and cents thinking is usually 30-40 before the current era.

 

My business is slow since I got old and it is of a consulting nature. I will do a job for $1,000-$1,800 per day but mention that to an old car guy and the come up with some crack about the 50 year old Rockford Files TV show. Most just ain't caught up yet and may never.

[TTR]

34 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

Most just ain't caught up yet and may never.

That's part of the "Boomer" syndrome I often refer to.

 

While I grew up with pretty much nothing and I still have most of it left, I'm not afraid to spend it on my passions, including vintage cars.

Perhaps I'm not the smartest, but at least no one can call me cheap or a poser.

[hidden_hunter]

The fun of an old car for me is working on it, $150k pays for a lot of tools and jobs that are either too hard or make a hash of

[TTR]

22 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

I might refer you to the receipts in this auction (which, for a true comparison, are 14 years old). It may also be worth noting that they started with a previously restored car.

 

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1934-packard-1108-twelve-dietrich-individual-custom-convertible-sedan/

 

Here's a preview of just one invoice, out of perhaps 30 or 40:

Just for a brain exercise, I just added up the labor hours shown on invoices in this listing and came up with almost 10,000* (and excludes 385.5 shown to be for a model/sample car, job #905 ?), all invoiced/paid within 13 months, which would suggest the shop must've had at least 5 individuals working on it full-time for over a year (09-10-09 to 10-01-10).

And that doesn't include +/- $150K Chrome bills or +/- $130K for parts, etc.

 

Now let that sink in and then, add your preferred shop rate of today + any increases in Chrome & parts costs. 

 

* Last "full/complete restoration" I did took over 4000 hours (but I'm known to not keep very good track of all hours) although on much smaller/simpler postwar (sports) car and I outsourced the paint job along with about 1/2 of the interior/upholstery work + plating & polishing of bright trim.

Edited April 1 by TTR (see edit history)

[1935Packard]

The way costs are going, classic car restoration standards over time will look something like this for all but the very deepest pockets:

 

1970s, standards were low; 

2010s, standards were high; 

2050s, standards will be low (as no one will be able to afford it otherwise).

 

 

Edited April 1 by 1935Packard (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

It is probably worth noting that the Packard I posted above with invoices was going to Pebble Beach. The restoration was expressly commissioned with a Pebble BoS in mind. I looked at a few of the details on one of the invoices and it was something like, "wet sand and polish the back of the hood vent doors."  So while the numbers are truly astronomical, they are also far beyond what is actually required to be considered a "restoration," even to a relatively high standard. There are plenty of 100-point CCCA Classics running around that would get laughed off the show field at Pebble. It's just not the same world.

[3macboys]

All this talk about the shop rate and quality reminds of a comment Chip Foose made on one of the shows that he was on, that his shops hourly rate was actually fairly low but it was the number of hours that they put into the car.  In other words the hourly rate doesn't matter, it's the quality of the end product that does and it's going to cost you.

 

Two other thoughts - the first time that I went to Hershey was in about 1981 with my parents.  I remember seeing those big full classics for the first time and those were the first cars that I remember being priced from $100 to 250K with, if I remember right, the Duesenbergs asking the top dollar.  My parents made good middle class money and those cars were way beyond the family means then....fast forward to today with an inflation calculator of 3.41 times and they are still out of reach, heck even at the 1981 prices they are out of reach, which is all meant to say that those cars have been for the top 10% pretty much since they were built aside for the short period that they were considered used cars.

 

For the rest of us I'll use the line that I used to use on our vendors to describe the quality and price that we wanted - we've had a Chev for a long time, we can't afford a Cadillac but we'd really like a Buick.  It was an analogy that even non-car people could understand and for most of us I think that describes where we fit in the restoration world.  

[Bhigdog]

10 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

It is probably worth noting that the Packard I posted above with invoices was going to Pebble Beach. The restoration was expressly commissioned with a Pebble BoS in mind. I looked at a few of the details on one of the invoices and it was something like, "wet sand and polish the back of the hood vent doors."  So while the numbers are truly astronomical, they are also far beyond what is actually required to be considered a "restoration," even to a relatively high standard. There are plenty of 100-point CCCA Classics running around that would get laughed off the show field at Pebble. It's just not the same world.

So, in other words, pebble beach, is not really a car show but is rather a bank roll and ego show.

I think the award shouldn,t be called the Best of Show but rather Biggest of Show.

Any suggestions for a suitable design for the trophy?....bob

 

Edited April 1 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[TTR]

28 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

It is probably worth noting that the Packard I posted above with invoices was going to Pebble Beach. The restoration was expressly commissioned with a Pebble BoS in mind. I looked at a few of the details on one of the invoices and it was something like, "wet sand and polish the back of the hood vent doors."  So while the numbers are truly astronomical, they are also far beyond what is actually required to be considered a "restoration," even to a relatively high standard. There are plenty of 100-point CCCA Classics running around that would get laughed off the show field at Pebble. It's just not the same world.

I agree, to a point.

 

Most, if not all P.B. BoS and BoC or Cavallino (Ferrari) BoS and 100 point Platinum level restorations are very likely refinished far above & beyond what the given cars had originally, i.e. "over restored", for which at least IAC/PFA* guidelines have a specific, but rarely, if ever used category for points deduction, or in other words, non-authentic restoration.

 

* Ferrari focused organization responsible for creating international judging guidelines/rules for them and these guidelines/rules are possibly same or similar to those used at P.B. judging (I believe some of the council members are same)

[TTR]

22 minutes ago, 3macboys said:

In other words the hourly rate doesn't matter, it's the quality of the end product that does ...

That's pretty much what I said in my first post to this thread.

 

18 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

So, in other words, pebble beach, is not really a car show but is rather a bank roll and ego show.

Has always been. 

Ask Ed.

 

But then again, so are all other concours/judged shows.

Edited April 1 by TTR (see edit history)

[Brass is Best]

Shop rates are only going to go up. With inflation and more regulations everything including classic cars will cost more.