Old Cars (How many of you remember Ralph Nader?)

[Pfeil]

39 minutes ago, B Jake Moran said:

Not in the US.  Germany yes.  In the 1930’s Germany was still in the depression. Most families could afford no car. So yes, it was the family car. 
 

But in the US, most sales went to families as a 2nd car or as GM put it - to college nerds and professors.  

In the 30's, well, In 1938 all beetles sold to the public was out of a coupon book. All the Beetles produced went to promotion, or German heads of state. Not one beetle was ever delivered from the coupon book, hence, no beetle was sold to the public before the war.

[victorialynn2]

I can’t wait to get my ‘63 Spyder 4 Speed Vert running and take it for a spin. I come from a family who had Corvair’s as long back as I can remember. I have found the right person for the job and am on his waitlist. Nader just makes them more fun to talk about. 

 

My grandfather, who was an engineer, had an Ultra Van and was always working on Corvair’s. I went to several Ultra Van rally’s with him and my grandmother. He wrote tech memos for the Ultra Vans they still use. 
 

My dad had a Rampy, Greenbrier and the ‘63. Here’s a pic from the 80’s (bottom), and a recent one of the same car.

Edited March 1 by victorialynn2 (see edit history)

[Frank DuVal]

7 hours ago, Ed Luddy said:

The 1st gen Corvairs had different tire pressure recommendations for front and rear and labels also. Of course nobody paid any attention to that.

All Corvairs  had different tire pressure for front and rear axles.  TIFIFY (There, I fixed it for you). 

 

And yes, mechanics disregarded it more than the owners did! "Fill 'em all to 30, Roy, I know what all cars need."

 

5 hours ago, Leif in Calif said:

One not well understood point; he didn't kill the Corvair, the Mustang did. 

Yes!❗ Corvair started the bucket seats four on the floor movement, and Lee Iacocca ran with it at Ford.....😮

 

4 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

Corvair had its place in the Chevrolet line for 9 years which is about as long as most cars last.

Corvair had its place in the Chevrolet line for 10 years which....       TIFIFY  😉

[Frank DuVal]

Safety ratings from the IIHS I believe. Why? Because the indoor crash track is a little over an hour from here and I have been there to watch the tests. Might be in a group to go again later this year. Walk ins are not allowed, but groups can sign up.

 

https://www.iihs.org/about-us/contact

 

In the lobby are the two cars involved in the FIRST two air bag equipped cars accident on public roads. Head On. Amazingly, it happened in Culpepper County VA not 30 miles from the indoor crash track. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1990/03/31/va-crash-shines-spotlight-on-air-bags/bc49eff4-f445-41b1-8099-d0bdce8e901f/

 

In unrelated news, the indoor test track in Ruckersville replaced the outdoor test track that was behind my house.....😁 It closed several years before I moved here. Dang, I could have had a ready supply of used parts.😉

[8E45E]

12 hours ago, Leif in Calif said:

There definitely were cars with dodgy suspension, but it was more in the execution that the design.  The 356 Porsche had swing axels, as did the Triumph Spitfire and the early Corvair. Some worked, some didn't. 

One not well understood point; he didn't kill the Corvair, the Mustang did. 

If the Tatra V8 was sold here, I would have loved to have heard his review of them.  They were worse than Corvair for rear-end weight bias, extremely tail-heavy, and very prone to the driver losing control of it on the road.

 

Corvair became an interesting niche-market car with the 1965 models.  A sedan wasn't even available; only hardtops and convertibles.

 

Craig

[Str8-8-Dave]

It must be Joan Claybrook...

[B Jake Moran]

I was surprised to see that tire pressures were LOWER in the front (if I read that right) and much higher in the rear.  Why?  I am asking a legitimate question, I don't know. 

 

I am a former mechanic. It would seem that tire pressure that was lower in back would help keep the car on the road.  Anything higher would place less contact, and less incentive to stay on the road.  I know the Corvair and VW had rear engines pushing down, but clearly, in turns and wet, they let go anyway.  

[B Jake Moran]

This discussion has morphed a little but I will add that I think the 2nd generation Corvairs were very attractive, 1965 on. I went to an auction in the Iowa countryside about 7 years ago that had a large Corvair inventory, and all went for $200 to $450.  There were some rare cars, and they weren't all rusted out.  I was there for something else, and still regret not getting a 66-68 Corvair.  To me, the 2 door hardtops looked better than the Convertibles, the 2 door hardtops with those thin A and C pillars.  

[rocketraider]

GM has a history of making cars that, by the time they had refined them enough to be great cars, were unceremoniously discontinued. The Corvair and Fiero are the most prominent examples. Reattas and Allantes fall in there too but were just a little too complicated electronically to be a true enthusiast car. Yes, I know they have their rabid following and the comment isn't meant to dismiss them. But they were prime examples of GM's unfortunate 80s/90s habit of trotting out not-ready-for-prime-time electronic gadgetry. Enthusiasts want to get in the car and drive, not fight with finicky electronics to get it started and have heat, radio, windows that work etc.

 

Once the General realized it had marketed those cars all wrong, and should have been marketing them to and building them for driving enthusiasts, it was too little too late.

 

Nader? An opportunist if ever was. I think I read once that some GM executive dismissed and insulted him and he's held that grudge ever since. 

 

It's difficult for me to understand how anyone who has never owned or driven any car can be considered an authority on vehicle safety. 

[76 Caddy]

I have always liked the '65-'69 Corvairs and would like to have a 4-door hard top with the telescopic steering wheel.

 

Tim

 

 

[8E45E]

2 hours ago, rocketraider said:

GM has a history of making cars that, by the time they had refined them enough to be great cars, were unceremoniously discontinued. The Corvair and Fiero are the most prominent examples. Reattas and Allantes fall in there too but were just a little too complicated electronically to be a true enthusiast car. Yes, I know they have their rabid following and the comment isn't meant to dismiss them. But they were prime examples of GM's unfortunate 80s/90s habit of trotting out not-ready-for-prime-time electronic gadgetry. Enthusiasts want to get in the car and drive, not fight with finicky electronics to get it started and have heat, radio, windows that work etc.

I think GM's last innovation the rest if the industry adopted en masse was the Retained Power System which allowed use of the power windows and audio system for up to 10 minutes, or a door was opened after the vehicle was turned off.  I believe Cadillac was the first with it around 1989 or so.

 

Craig

[Rusty_OToole]

6 hours ago, B Jake Moran said:

I was surprised to see that tire pressures were LOWER in the front (if I read that right) and much higher in the rear.  Why?  I am asking a legitimate question, I don't know. 

 

I am a former mechanic. It would seem that tire pressure that was lower in back would help keep the car on the road.  Anything higher would place less contact, and less incentive to stay on the road.  I know the Corvair and VW had rear engines pushing down, but clearly, in turns and wet, they let go anyway.  

The front of the Corvair was considerably lighter than the rear. I think it was about 40% of the weight on the front wheels and 60% on the back wheels.  So, the front tires needed less air to work correctly, for the tread to be flat on the ground and to flex the way they were supposed to. While the rears needed to be pumped up to carry the extra weight.

 

In addition they wanted the low pressure front tires to cause understeer so the handling would resemble a conventional, front heavy front engine car. I had Corvairs and VWs and always had less pressure in the fronts but not as low as the factory recommended.

 

The 2 ply, bias ply 6:00 X 13 tires they used, handled different from modern radials.

[Str8-8-Dave]

6 hours ago, Str8-8-Dave said:

It must be Joan Claybrook...

Sorry- I couldn't help myself...

[8E45E]

1 hour ago, Rusty_OToole said:

The front of the Corvair was considerably lighter than the rear. I think it was about 40% of the weight on the front wheels and 60% on the back wheels.  So, the front tires needed less air to work correctly, for the tread to be flat on the ground and to flex the way they were supposed to. While the rears needed to be pumped up to carry the extra weight.

 

In addition they wanted the low pressure front tires to cause understeer so the handling would resemble a conventional, front heavy front engine car. I had Corvairs and VWs and always had less pressure in the fronts but not as low as the factory recommended.

 

The 2 ply, bias ply 6:00 X 13 tires they used, handled different from modern radials.

Many owners could not comprehend why there was a nearly 50% differential between the front and rear tire pressures.

 

Craig

[John348]

6 hours ago, rocketraider said:

GM has a history of making cars that, by the time they had refined them enough to be great cars, were unceremoniously discontinued. The Corvair and Fiero are the most prominent examples. Reattas and Allantes fall in there too but were just a little too complicated electronically to be a true enthusiast car. Yes, I know they have their rabid following and the comment isn't meant to dismiss them. But they were prime examples of GM's unfortunate 80s/90s habit of trotting out not-ready-for-prime-time electronic gadgetry. Enthusiasts want to get in the car and drive, not fight with finicky electronics to get it started and have heat, radio, windows that work etc.

 

Once the General realized it had marketed those cars all wrong, and should have been marketing them to and building them for driving enthusiasts, it was too little too late.

 

Nader? An opportunist if ever was. I think I read once that some GM executive dismissed and insulted him and he's held that grudge ever since. 

 

It's difficult for me to understand how anyone who has never owned or driven any car can be considered an authority on vehicle safety. 

Glenn,

GM tried that with the Cosworth Vega, limited production, EFI, a few hundred less then Corvette and grand more than a Camaro. Expensive drivetrain with finicky electronics in on a bad platform, it was a pig with lipstick.  The one I had was fun to drive and fast when it when it ran.

Great observation! 

[victorialynn2]

6 hours ago, 76 Caddy said:

I have always liked the '65-'69 Corvairs and would like to have a 4-door hard top with the telescopic steering wheel.

 

Tim

 

 

A 65 2 door hardtop in the one year “evening orchid” is on my wish list. 

[Pfeil]

9 hours ago, rocketraider said:

GM has a history of making cars that, by the time they had refined them enough to be great cars, were unceremoniously discontinued. The Corvair and Fiero are the most prominent examples. Reattas and Allantes fall in there too but were just a little too complicated electronically to be a true enthusiast car. Yes, I know they have their rabid following and the comment isn't meant to dismiss them. But they were prime examples of GM's unfortunate 80s/90s habit of trotting out not-ready-for-prime-time electronic gadgetry. Enthusiasts want to get in the car and drive, not fight with finicky electronics to get it started and have heat, radio, windows that work etc.

 

Once the General realized it had marketed those cars all wrong, and should have been marketing them to and building them for driving enthusiasts, it was too little too late.

 

Nader? An opportunist if ever was. I think I read once that some GM executive dismissed and insulted him and he's held that grudge ever since. 

 

It's difficult for me to understand how anyone who has never owned or driven any car can be considered an authority on vehicle safety. 

I will add Tempest to your list, and if "Y" bodies had lasted into and past 1965 the Tempest rear suspension would have been double jointed like Corvette, Corvair. To me, the "Y" bodied cars were the perfect size.  

[8E45E]

1 hour ago, victorialynn2 said:

A 65 2 door hardtop in the one year “evening orchid” is on my wish list. 

Pontiac Motor Division called that color "Iris Mist"

 

Craig

[Pfeil]

2 hours ago, 8E45E said:

Pontiac Motor Division called that color "Iris Mist"

 

Craig

Chevrolet called it "Evening Orchard."

[Studemax]

On 2/29/2024 at 2:01 PM, Roger Frazee said:

I love Nader stories.  As a Corvair owner, I hear lots of them.  I have to chuckle when people ask me how I got a license plate for a car that Nader had outlawed. 

 

If it weren't for Nader, Corvairs wouldn't be nearly as much fun.

As if Ralphie boy had any power. What a laugh riot that is!

[8E45E]

1 hour ago, Pfeil said:

Chevrolet called it "Evening Orchard."

As Vicky-Lynn correctly stated in her post above.

 

Here's a loaded Impala in that color:

[Frank DuVal]

14 hours ago, B Jake Moran said:

I am a former mechanic. It would seem that tire pressure that was lower in back would help keep the car on the road. 

Then you should know the tire has to have the correct "patch" on the ground. Just ;look at autocrossers and chalking the tires to make sure the patch is correct. The only thing with weight on the front wheels of a Corvair is the little suspension crossmember, which you can pick up and carry around (well, when I was younger) with all parts attached, a little sheet metal and half the weight of the front seat passengers. The rear tires have several hundred pounds of cast iron transmission and differential assembly and then an engine! If you run 35 psi in the fronts, the patch is really tiny.😮

 

10 psi differential is what most Corvair people like to run. 

 

Evening Orchid is only on Pontiacs (Iris Mist) and Chevrolet. Not Buick, Olds or Cadillac.

 

Corvairs came with WIDER wheels than most of the other GM cars. OK, wider than ANY 13" GM car! The Chevy II and Buick Special with 13s were narrower.

 

13 hours ago, rocketraider said:

It's difficult for me to understand how anyone who has never owned or driven any car can be considered an authority on vehicle safety. 

We got Ralph to sit in an early convertible for a photo shoot at the 1991 Corvair convention in DC.

 

Ralph bought a Corvair to display in his Tort Museum.

16 hours ago, 8E45E said:

Corvair became an interesting niche-market car with the 1965 models.  A sedan wasn't even available; only hardtops and convertibles.

Least expensive hardtops on the market was an advertising statement from Chevrolet. Even the lowly stripper 500 models were only hardtops.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Ahh Ralph Nader.  Local gadfly who finaly stopped running for President and mucking up our local parades every fourth year.

 

A car friend of mine was his neighbor for years a couple towns over in Winsted, CT.  Not sure if it was purchased for research or a memento of sorts but in his garage is...yep a Corvair.  Sitting of course.

[victorialynn2]

14 hours ago, 8E45E said:

Pontiac Motor Division called that color "Iris Mist"

 

Craig

Wow! 😍😍😍 that is gorgeous, what an awesome GTO. 

[victorialynn2]

10 hours ago, 8E45E said:

As Vicky-Lynn correctly stated in her post above.

 

Here's a loaded Impala in that color:

Beautiful Impala! 💗💗💗

A friend had a Chevelle in that color and seeing it in person was a real treat. 

 

[JV Puleo]

Though I'm sure it wasn't intended, RN did me and my friends a big favor. After the Corvair was no longer being built, and with all the bad publicity, they were extremely cheap. I think I paid $300 for '68 convertible around 1972. Prior to that I had an early one that was free...which was important because I had to get to work and I'd just spent every dime I had on a 1910 REO. My friend Paul still has his 64 that is an ongoing project with him. He also has a 32 Chrysler roadster but his wife prefers the Corvair.

[Frank DuVal]

And percentagewise, way more Corvairs survived than "normal" cars! Maybe Ralph, maybe low price, maybe people just knew that were superior engineering!😉 With a known flaw that was overcome by Viton o-rings, not typically available during the production run. 

[Larry Schramm]

I bought two Corvairs in about 1972 for $20.00 total.  The '64 Monza I fixed up and my wife/then girlfriend drove it another 50,000 miles before we parted with it. 

 

Fun car with 4 on the floor.  We put radial tires on it and it would go through any depth of snow fall.   Lots of good memories.

Edited March 3 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[Pfeil]

On 3/1/2024 at 7:50 AM, B Jake Moran said:

I was surprised to see that tire pressures were LOWER in the front (if I read that right) and much higher in the rear.  Why?  I am asking a legitimate question, I don't know. 

 

I am a former mechanic. It would seem that tire pressure that was lower in back would help keep the car on the road.  Anything higher would place less contact, and less incentive to stay on the road.  I know the Corvair and VW had rear engines pushing down, but clearly, in turns and wet, they let go anyway.  

As a former mechanic, then to automotive engineering. I had two years of automotive mechanics in High school. While in college I had a part time job, I was also lucky enough to have my local VW dealership sponsor me in VW's auto mechanics school that the dealer mechanics went to providing someday I went to work for them.

 I had heard it before, in High school, in college and at VW school how important the tire pressure between front and rear were to the proper handling of these types of cars is.

[Pfeil]

On 3/1/2024 at 10:59 AM, 76 Caddy said:

I have always liked the '65-'69 Corvairs and would like to have a 4-door hard top with the telescopic steering wheel.

 

Tim

 

 

That 4-door hardtop is a very good-looking car, love that "C" pilar.

Such a little car and so much room inside!

[Str8-8-Dave]

So this is my entire list of Corvair stories... 

 

The scene for story #1

One of my brothers high school buddies was Wayne Feitzer, he was a car addict starting with the mis-appropriation of his dads 1953 Plymouth Cranbrook, which got then 12 year old Wayne in a heap of trouble after the Plymouth, which was parked in Wayne, (town of) Michigan before Wayne (mal-content 12 yr. old) "borrowed" the Plymouth which was found in Toledo, Ohio!  Wayne graduated high school in 1960 and was already hooked on hot-rod cars.  One of Wayne's hot-rod buddies was Paul Hatton, who took Wayne under his wing and taught him how to paint cars which eventually got Wayne into Dearborn Steel & Tube and into the prototype car business. 

 

Wayne, AKA Butch, made a first new car purchase of a black 1963 Dodge Polara with a 13-1/2 to 1 CR 426 cross-ram Max Wedge with a push-button Torque-Flite and 4-11 Sure-Grip rear.  After a couple of passes thru the 1/4 mile at Detroit Dragway, that car was jacked up in his parents driveway, wheel wells were VEERRY carefully cut out and a home-made set of equal length stainless headers were fabricated with drag caps and street hookup.  Butch got Al Ansen to make some custom narrow front wheels and some widened rear wheels to accommodate a big nasty set of street prowlers out back and narrow Mickey Thompson front tires.  Butch was left with a car that was ripping fast, quite noisy and barley street legal.  The car could not be driven in cold weather as it had no carburetor heat which resulted in it being tucked away in his dad's garage during winter weather. 

 

So, what did Butch get for his every-day car?  A dark red turbocharged 1963 Corvair Monza Spyder convertible!    That car was seen driving around Wayne in the early spring and early fall and winter.  In fact, one fine warmish winter day in 1963 while walking home from school I almost lost my life with that particular car.  Ever see how angry a 20yr old hot-rodder can get when you hit the windshield of his Corvair Monza with a hard snowball!  After he got the car stopped I got quite a little road side lecture about that.  I credit my brother's association with Butch for the fact I'm still around to write about that particular event. 

 

A few years after Butch had sold off the Monza he bought another Corvair.  This one was a lot less spectacular than the Monza, at least for awhile.  Then one day after a lengthy absence the later Corvair showed up with a fairly nasty small-block Chevy V8 mounted mid-ships.  Even though the V8 lump was mounted in front of the rear axle it required a couple of 80lb bags of cement in the trunk to keep front wheels associated with the ground.

 

My last experience with Corvairs came along after my sister married an engineer who wound up at GM Truck and Bus working on radiators.  When they married he had a 1956 2-tone red and white Chevy Bel Air with it's original 265 2bbl V8.  The car had been restored years before and was traded for a 1964 Pontiac Tempest.  The Tempest was an automatic which was a good thing for my sister who could not drive a stick.  But alas the Tempest was a leaker, it leaked water on the floor every time it got rained on or washed.  My brother in law replaced that car with a white 1966 Corvair Corsa with 4 carburetor 140hp flat 6 and a four speed.  It was a really nice car.  My poor sister now finally had to learn to drive a stick.  It wasn't pretty, but she did survive.    

 

 

Edited March 4 by Str8-8-Dave
spelling, grammar (see edit history)

[Pfeil]

Everyone remember the electric Corvair from 1966?

[rocketraider]

I vaguely remember ElectroVair. Somehow EV innovation wasn't as offensive in 1966, since there was no concerted political agenda trying to force it on us. It was viewed as futuristic and cutting-edge engineering, even to a car-crazy ten year old who loved every car he saw.

 

With all that battery weight up front, wonder how it affected handling? Possibly tilted the Corvair toward 50/50 weight distribution? It says "AC motor" which means more weight in form of rectifiers.

 

When Corvair became all-hardtop, the Bill Mitchell influence oozed out of every pore 🥰. Though it probably didn't help folks who liked the stiffness of a B-pillar for autocrossing.

[B Jake Moran]

6 hours ago, Pfeil said:

As a former mechanic, then to automotive engineering. I had two years of automotive mechanics in High school. While in college I had a part time job, I was also lucky enough to have my local VW dealership sponsor me in VW's auto mechanics school that the dealer mechanics went to providing someday I went to work for them.

 I had heard it before, in High school, in college and at VW school how important the tire pressure between front and rear were to the proper handling of these types of cars is.

Yes it took me a little while to understand the tire pressures discussion.  So, with all the weight on the rear of a Corvair, tire pressure can certainly be increased and still allow a contact patch.  BUT - the rear still lifted or lost contact.  Sometimes.  

[Frank DuVal]

Oh, I remember the Electrovair II very well. We had it in the Richmond, Va Corvair Museum for several years in the late 90s. GM loaned us several cars. Most unusual was the Sterling engined early model!😮

 

Glen, it needs an inverter, not a rectifier to make three phase AC from a battery. 🏎️😉

 

And the late models are quite stiff enough for autocrossing without the B pilar....   Just look at all of them still on autocross tracks. Modifications are beefier sway bars, etc. but no one adds longitudinal chassis supports.

 

 

 

[Pfeil]

On 3/1/2024 at 10:45 PM, Frank DuVal said:

Then you should know the tire has to have the correct "patch" on the ground. Just ;look at autocrossers and chalking the tires to make sure the patch is correct. The only thing with weight on the front wheels of a Corvair is the little suspension crossmember, which you can pick up and carry around (well, when I was younger) with all parts attached, a little sheet metal and half the weight of the front seat passengers. The rear tires have several hundred pounds of cast iron transmission and differential assembly and then an engine! If you run 35 psi in the fronts, the patch is really tiny.😮

 

10 psi differential is what most Corvair people like to run. 

 

Evening Orchid is only on Pontiacs (Iris Mist) and Chevrolet. Not Buick, Olds or Cadillac.

 

Corvairs came with WIDER wheels than most of the other GM cars. OK, wider than ANY 13" GM car! The Chevy II and Buick Special with 13s were narrower.

 

We got Ralph to sit in an early convertible for a photo shoot at the 1991 Corvair convention in DC.

 

Ralph bought a Corvair to display in his Tort Museum.

Least expensive hardtops on the market was an advertising statement from Chevrolet. Even the lowly stripper 500 models were only hardtops.

Least expensive hardtops on the market was an advertising statement from Chevrolet. Even the lowly stripper 500 models were only hardtops.

 

What are these Corvairs below? Sure look like sedans to me.

Not so, these are sedans

1960-64 Corvair 2 dr. and 4dr. were sedans.

Edited March 5 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[Frank DuVal]

I was responding to 8E45E who said "the 1965 models..."  Those are pictures of earlies, which are all sedans, except the convertibles.😉

[victorialynn2]

On 3/1/2024 at 9:01 PM, 8E45E said:

Pontiac Motor Division called that color "Iris Mist"

 

Craig

Guess what I saw in APOPKA, FL today?

[rocketraider]

😬😖 There's one of those creepy crybaby dolls sullying that gorgeous GTO...

 

I had hoped those things had been consigned to the trash by now. Apparently not. Lord those dolls bother me and have since the first time I saw one.

 

The individual who popularized them should be beaten around his ears and made to sit and listen to Ralph Nader for hours.

[Grimy]

I damn near got killed on my first honeymoon in 1967 when my bride's 1965 Monza 2-d hardtop with factory tire pressure settings got blown into the path of an oncoming big rig.  We had that car another 8 years, the duration of the marriage, and I experimented with various tire pressures.  What worked best for me was 18 psi front and 36 psi rear.