Old Cars (How many of you remember Ralph Nader?)

[dodge28]

🙂How many of you remember Ralph Nader ? The Volkswagen, according to him, was the most unsafe car at any speed. He was responsible for forcing the manufacturers to make safer cars. I think some models of Jeeps were in the mix ? Some of the qualities he argued was the ratio of height to width of some vehicles ?    

[trimacar]

Methinks you might be confused with your post, Nader attacked the Corvair, not the Folks-Vahgen.  It was an interesting time, when nobodies could state a truth, which wasn't a truth, yet everyone believed the nobody, so somebody, or everybody, believed and reacted...

 

Not a far cry from false beliefs and media manipulation nowadays...

[Rusty_OToole]

I may be the only person who actually read his book all the way through, twice. The first time ticked me off, the second made me laugh. Not many people know that he had no engineering training, did not own a car, could not drive and did not have a driving license. Some auto safety expert. They also don't know that he got all the information he used in his smear job from General Motors files. They gave him access to their service and recall records  not knowing what he intended to do.

 

Another thing few people know is that the US government tested the Corvair's handling and found it perfectly safe, if  different from front engine cars. This information was quietly buried and never reported in the mainstream media. Not that it would have done any good as the report came out 3 years after the Corvair was replaced by the Vega.

[Larry Schramm]

He is an attorney.   Need say more.

Edited February 29 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[Andy J]

I always wondered about this.I'm no expert by any means,but I am familiar with both vehicles.In my eyes,the VW was as bad,if not worse safety wise,than the Corvair. Why wasn't the VW hounded like the Corvair? I realize the production of the VW couldn't be stopped,but the government could have stopped  it from being imported into the country.

 

I owned a VW once and have ridden in several Corvairs. I believe the Corvair to be safer by far.

[Studemax]

Nader was an idiot looking to stir up trouble to gain attention and make money.

[Rusty_OToole]

1 hour ago, Andy J said:

I always wondered about this.I'm no expert by any means,but I am familiar with both vehicles.In my eyes,the VW was as bad,if not worse safety wise,than the Corvair. Why wasn't the VW hounded like the Corvair? I realize the production of the VW couldn't be stopped,but the government could have stopped  it from being imported into the country.

 

I owned a VW once and have ridden in several Corvairs. I believe the Corvair to be safer by far.

As a former owner of a Corvair and numerous air cooled VWs you are 100% right.

[7th Son]

[Pfeil]

A gun is unsafe in the wrong hands and so is a car whose driver is unfamiliar with how it handles. There are dangers and pleasures to these types of vehicles you just have to know what makes them work. The wheel tuck on Corvair (60-64) can be frightening to the uninitiated and in Corvairs case can happen at lower speed/and angle of attack than Porsche, VW or Pontiac Tempest. Delorean knew from VW and Porsche that the situation could be lessened or moved higher into extreme incidence by increasing the wheel size. With those 13" wheels on Corvair causes its tuck problem to happen much sooner, and with a softly sprung car to give a big car ride the problem was inevitable. Original Beetle and Porsches actually used 16" wheels and then down to 15", and "Y" body Tempest (61-63 Transaxle cars) came with 15' wheels compared with Y body F-85 and Buick special that came with 13's. Tempest still had problems though because it too had a suspension to give a big car soft ride that Americans liked, but at least the 63's were much improved with a new trailing arm which helped geometry. When Knudsen was promoted from Pontiac General Manager to Chevrolet General Manager, he said he would not take the job unless he was allowed to correct Corvairs problem. Most of this all went away with Franz Reimspiess's new suspension (double jointed CV joints for the new 911, Corvair finally getting Knudsen's double jointed half shafts by 1965 and VW getting double jointed CV joints in 68-Auto Stick and 69 All Beetles. Still, because of weight bias even these corrected cars can swap ends if the driver doesn't know what he's doing. The exception here would be Tempest.

 

   

Edited March 2 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[Fordy]

30 minutes ago, Pfeil said:

The wheel tuck on Corvair (60-64) can be frightening to the uninitiated

Try it with a Triumph spitfire cornering hard at speed! Brown underwear time!

Steve

[Littlestown Mike]

10 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

I may be the only person who actually read his book all the way through, twice. The first time ticked me off, the second made me laugh. Not many people know that he had no engineering training, did not own a car, could not drive and did not have a driving license. Some auto safety expert. They also don't know that he got all the information he used in his smear job from General Motors files. They gave him access to their service and recall records  not knowing what he intended to do.

 

Another thing few people know is that the US government tested the Corvair's handling and found it perfectly safe, if  different from front engine cars. This information was quietly buried and never reported in the mainstream media. Not that it would have done any good as the report came out 3 years after the Corvair was replaced by the Vega.

Well you beat me.  I read it once--and that was enough.

He did what lawyers do--he argued his case. He combed through hundreds or thousands of pages of engineering studies and reports and found the couple of sentences that he could take ( out of context) and made it appear that his  quotes were the substance of the reports. He opened the door to the expectations that " GOVERNMENT" was the only authority that could possible protect the citizens from the EVIL capitalist manufacturers.

 

[Rusty_OToole]

6 minutes ago, Littlestown Mike said:

Well you beat me.  I read it once--and that was enough.

He did what lawyers do--he argued his case. He combed through hundreds or thousands of pages of engineering studies and reports and found the couple of sentences that he could take ( out of context) and made it appear that his  quotes were the substance of the reports. He opened the door to the expectations that " GOVERNMENT" was the only authority that could possible protect the citizens from the EVIL capitalist manufacturers.

 

Nader was a late comer to the auto safety racket. Other politicians had been working it for at least 10 years. Far from being a crusader, he was more of an opportunist. He made a fast buck and did his part to destroy the auto industry, once one of the pillars of the economy, and was as responsible as anybody for the wreck of the American economy in the seventies.

[hook]

9 hours ago, Larry Schramm said:

He is an attorney.   Need say more.

Well, not all attorneys are a problem. They say that only 98% of all attorneys make the good ones look bad.

[B Jake Moran]

I will play Devils Advocate. The 1960 Corvair was an unstable car in certain driving circumstances. It was later revealed that GM bean counters axed a $14 rear axle stability bar that would have helped a lot. Richard Donner GM CEO - was a bean counter and changed the culture of GM from engineering to accounting. 
 

Im not sure about Nader, he was probably a thorn that wrote books without perfect information and I never cared much for him - but there were fundamental issues with the 1960 Corvair that could have been avoided.   
 

The Beetle worked because it was a low hp car meant specifically to be a 2nd car and could not achieve the speed of the Corvair in wet corners.  By 1963, the stabilizer bar had been added.   

[8E45E]

11 hours ago, trimacar said:

Methinks you might be confused with your post, Nader attacked the Corvair, not the Folks-Vahgen.  It was an interesting time, when nobodies could state a truth, which wasn't a truth, yet everyone believed the nobody, so somebody, or everybody, believed and reacted...

Yes he did attack the Beetle in one or two sentences in later chapters in his 'Unsafe At Any Speed'.   As a result, the 1968 Beetle was the first VW in a long time one could tell what year it was a block away.  

 

The Corvair consisted of only one chapter.

 

Craig

[dship]

5 hours ago, Fordy said:

Try it with a Triumph spitfire cornering hard at speed! Brown underwear time!

Steve

I loved driving my '68 Spitfire.  On the highway, if you looked out your drivers side window as an 18-wheeler past you by, you would be eye-to-eye with its center wheel caps!

[Avanti Bill]

The early Corvairs theoretically could have wheel tuck but this was very unlikely if driven in a normal way.  I have a 66 Corsa Turbo Spider which is one of the nicest driving old cars I have, easy to drive, no bad habits.  When I bought it the previous owner had a a note from Nader, that he met somewhere, that said "I would rather look at it than drive it", I didn't realize he didn't have a license.

[bryankazmer]

2 hours ago, B Jake Moran said:

 

 

The Beetle worked because it was a low hp car meant specifically to be a 2nd car

Not at all true as far as design intent.  It, like the Citroen 2CV and the Model T, was mean to be in many cases the first car a family could afford. Hence the name « Volkswagen. »

[Angelfish]

I was about 5 years and my Dad made me a shirt, a bright red t-shirt that I wore until it was falling apart.  Down the front he had stenciled the words Unsafe at Any Speed.

 

Edited February 29 by Angelfish (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

Client of ours was one of "Nader's Raiders" after he graduated from law school. He was not impressed by Ralph.

[pont35cpe]

Didn`t he have something to do with the "5mph bumpers" too?

[powerband]

Happy Birthday ! to Ralph Nader, just turned 90 years young...

 

I rolled a '64 bug with the axles folding underneath, landed on wheels and engine still started . @ 40 years later I had three brick shaped Isuzu Troopers before someone noticed if you sway it like a Buick you're going over ...

.

.

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have fun

[Frank DuVal]

2 hours ago, Avanti Bill said:

I have a 66 Corsa Turbo Spider

Well, that’s a rare one. 😂. The Spyder name as dropped at the start of the 1965 model year. The turbocharged model became the Corsa. 

 

There were some decals made up because of preproduction photos (remember pre production photos can not be used as proof in AACA judging 👌) showing the air cleaner label as 180 hp Spyder.

[Gunsmoke]

While pondering the "Unsafe at Any Speed" catch phrase coined by Nader as a pseudo expert/opportunist, his thesis has largely been dismissed over time as unreasonably alarmist, and perhaps self serving. While he focused on the early Corvairs, the 30M plus VW Beetles sold worldwide are a testament to their acceptance by the motoring public as a good, safe car, especially as a low speed A-B means of transport. Having owned a '59 Karmann Ghia back in the '60's powered by a Corvair engine, I understand the unusual driving characteristics of such a combo, especially the light front end. But I loved the car's performance, look, and rarity, and never encountered an issue in 4 years of driving. However, such an anecdotal story does not mean it was safe!

 

More critical for all of us is who is rated today as making the safest cars? One recent report places the top 15 companies for safety as : Genesis, Volvo, Tesla, Mazda, Subaru, Ford, BMW, Mercedes Benz, Lexus, Hyundai, Audi, Honda, Toyota, VW, and Nissan. Note some ranked for their luxury models only. For the mass produced cars most of us might buy, the top 7 leaders are: Mazda, Subaru, Ford, Hyundai, Honda, Toyota, VW and Nissan. My question is. Are many of us really influenced by such ratings? 

Edited February 29 by Gunsmoke (see edit history)

[Frank DuVal]

9 hours ago, Pfeil said:

The wheel tuck on Corvair (60-64) can be frightening to the uninitiated and in Corvairs case can happen at lower speed/and angle of attack than Porsche, VW or Pontiac Tempest.

Why frightening? Because of the high rate of speed the driver was already going? ❓  Speed is relative, of course, in autocross picking up the outside rear wheel is common with 60 -63 cars and 61 to 65 FCs (the Corvair trucks/vans, which, BTW used 14" wheels) but loss of control is not common, unless speed is excessive for the turn, just like all the other cars doing the same turn at excessive speed. Wheel tuck issue is when that outside wheel off the ground comes down and touches ground on the sidewall. Wheel off the ground is just a wheel off the ground, like any car.  It is less of an issue than the other three wheels loosing traction due to side forces. So while the one rear tire might come off the ground (those 13" wheels just don't have that extra inch to still be touching?) typically that tire comes back onto the ground and goes merrily on its way, if the other three are sticking.

 

Of course the Tempest had to have taller tires, it had the disadvantage of engine weight in front, pressing down on the front tires to help raise the rear one off the ground!😮 It uses the SAME 60 to 63 Corvair transaxle (with a few parts to make it a rope driveshaft input).

 

Remember the saying, oversteer is when the passengers are scared, understeer is when the driver is scared!😉

 

Did you know Tucker was trying 13" wheels on the first chassis he built?

 

Quote from August 1972 NYT:

 

WASHINGTON, Aug. 12 (AP) —The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says it has sent letter to the owners of 1960–63 Corvairs saying that no safety defects involving in stability had been found in tests of the automobiles.

The announcement came yesterday, three weeks after Ralph Nader, the consumer advocate, termed the agency's report a contradictory whitewash and said that it failed to carry a recommendation by a panel of outside experts that owners of Corvairs “be advised that these vehicles may exhibit unusual handling characteristics under conditions of hard cornering.”

 

In its letter, the safety agency said that handling and stability of these older Corvairs did not result in an abnormal potential for loss of control or for roll over.

[Rusty_OToole]

Before Nader the Corvair was tested by all the leading auto publications and road testers. None of them found it unsafe. Tom McCahill remarked that it had some unusual handling characteristics in extreme conditions but that the ordinary driver would never encounter them in normal use, and that conventional cars would also be hard to handle under such conditions.

On the other hand he criticized the VW beetle for its rollover tendencies but added that it usually rolled gently and the round shape made it easy to roll back onto the wheels.  Even though on the whole he thought highly of the VW and was one of its early boosters he accepted that it had its bad points as well as a lot of advantages.

[Pfeil]

Road tuck in Corvair doesn't necessarily have to happen at high speed, but rather the terrain or the amount of weight thrown out of balance in the rear. 

Pontiac Tempest has 50-50 weight distribution and never suffered the back end shifting of its weight.

Both suffer from being too softly sprung and too much suspension travel.

Both have the same type of front and rear suspension. The front end has a positive roll center (like all older cars of that era) which fights the rears negative roll center on the inside wheel, while the outside rear wheel in a turn will tuck into a positive roll center. <63 Tempest rear trailing arm corrects this somewhat. Extreme photos that I have of the Tempest show this wacky type of front suspension and rear suspension fighting each other at Riverside Raceway when Tempest made its debut. It also shows how to compensate for the design by adding sway bars and camber compensators-just a band-aid to fixing the real issue. The only real fix would be to make front and rear suspensions have negative roll center built into it.

 I have done this on the front suspensions of my 69 H-O Pontiac LeMans and my 62 Pontiac Catalina which are used for street and grand touring (road racing). It consists of 1975-79 9C1 Police Nova variable high effort quick ratio steering box, springs (Eibach), poly graphite impregnated bushings, larger 1-3/8 sway bars, Koni adjustable shocks and the most important part besides disc brakes is the tall spindles to change the geometry from positive to a negative roll center. Not only does it give a great ride, but always having the tire with full contact patch on the ground at all times especially under hard cornering saves tires like you wouldn't believe. When the car is sitting on level surface the camber angle is zero, quite unlike some of the racers at the track with hideous amounts of negative camber.

I only wish the rear ends of these two cars had IRS. As such they are Eibach springs, 1-3/8 sway bars, poly graphite bushings in the links (adjustable links on upper) and koni shocks.  

 

[Pfeil]

4 hours ago, 8E45E said:

Yes he did attack the Beetle in one or two sentences in later chapters in his 'Unsafe At Any Speed'.   As a result, the 1968 Beetle was the first VW in a long time one could tell what year it was a block away.  

 

The Corvair consisted of only one chapter.

 

Craig

1968 Beetle Auto Stick. 1969 the M/T's got it.

[Pfeil]

4 hours ago, Avanti Bill said:

The early Corvairs theoretically could have wheel tuck but this was very unlikely if driven in a normal way.  I have a 66 Corsa Turbo Spider which is one of the nicest driving old cars I have, easy to drive, no bad habits.  When I bought it the previous owner had a a note from Nader, that he met somewhere, that said "I would rather look at it than drive it", I didn't realize he didn't have a license.

Give a thanks for that double jointed half shafted true IRS suspension that Bunkie Knudsen made come true that Ed Cole didn't think it was necessary.

Edited February 29 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

 

3 hours ago, Gunsmoke said:

 My question is. Are many of us really influenced by such ratings? 

As consumers, I think this is a great question for all of us to consider.

 

Us on this forum? I doubt it.

I believe most of us do our homework based on facts through objective research not subjective or influenced by anyone with an agenda. If we uncover agendas I'd like to think most of us will be strong minded enough to make a decision on truth and principle based on facts and not by an outside source trying to manipulate our thinking in order to get in our pockets or turn us away from a product. 

 

I believe your question is more appropriately including the entire population as consumers?

In that case I'd say probably more than ever!

 

With many consumers so willing to openly give reviews and ratings on every product known to man, everything from rubber bands to high tech devices, I believe it proves how any advocate with an agenda regarding any consumer product can effect the publics perception throughout history, especially in todays world with such a progressive leaning support structure in place to further such an agenda, IF they so choose to at any given moment.

 

 

Getting back on topic:

I think that's why Littlestown Mikes comments are key. Although as Rusty properly points out, their were many consumer advocates (politcal figures who were guarded in pushing the envelope) in the decade prior to Ralph, he was the first figure that the 1960s (and later 70s, 80s, etc) progressives welcomed with open arms and one who was willing to push the envelope. Once that pulpit was handed to him and the effects were witnessed by all, his acceptance (and many others later on) were further advanced. So yes, one could argue (as Mike has) that he actually opened that door for a anti-capitalistic thinking that can critique any product in order to have an influence in either building up a product, or to taking it down (with or without factual studies). The evidence for this is profound in our world today via advertising of any type of merchandise. One could argue that things haven't really changed all that much since Nader first knocked down that door, so your question of influence regarding ratings via advertising or studies is easily recognized is it not? 

 

Based on how many of those seven vehicles you listed are on the road, I'd say a pretty large portion of consumers are being influenced. 

It might be a coincidence, but I doubt it. 

 

His thesis may have been dismissed over time, but the alarmist tactics still abound and have had great success since then.

Currently the game is played out in realtime before our eyes on many levels. Simply present the story as fact, then once found out it's a simple apology from that "Professional" organization. As I said, not much has changed... 

 

On the other hand the glorification of a product (or study of a product) is undeniably very successful in the marketing world whether or not they are based on facts (unfortunately). 

 

Edited February 29 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[Roger Frazee]

I love Nader stories.  As a Corvair owner, I hear lots of them.  I have to chuckle when people ask me how I got a license plate for a car that Nader had outlawed. 

 

If it weren't for Nader, Corvairs wouldn't be nearly as much fun.

[Ed Luddy]

The 1st gen Corvairs had different tire pressure recommendations for front and rear and labels also. Of course nobody paid any attention to that.

 

[Ed Luddy]

[M1842]

As I recall, I found a book that Nader did on the VW Beatle in the U of MD library many years ago.  I always wondered why it didn't get the same attention as his Corvair book.  It was just as damning of VW.  It's been 40 years, but the essence of the book was that the Beatle was a pre war design that had never been upgraded to match the higher speeds on the Interstate system.

[Leif in Calif]

21 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

I may be the only person who actually read his book all the way through, twice. The first time ticked me off, the second made me laugh. Not many people know that he had no engineering training, did not own a car, could not drive and did not have a driving license. Some auto safety expert. They also don't know that he got all the information he used in his smear job from General Motors files. They gave him access to their service and recall records  not knowing what he intended to do.

 

Another thing few people know is that the US government tested the Corvair's handling and found it perfectly safe, if  different from front engine cars. This information was quietly buried and never reported in the mainstream media. Not that it would have done any good as the report came out 3 years after the Corvair was replaced by the Vega.

I also read it and he was way off base on lots of stuff, but his point was that car makers didn't pay much attention to safety. Knobs on the dash that would open your face, a steering column that was a spear pointed at your chest...all the things we love about old cars!

There definitely were cars with dodgy suspension, but it was more in the execution that the design.  The 356 Porsche had swing axels, as did the Triumph Spitfire and the early Corvair. Some worked, some didn't. 

One not well understood point; he didn't kill the Corvair, the Mustang did. 

[Rusty_OToole]

Sales wise the Corvair was always a disappointment. It did not do as well as the Rambler  Falcon and Valiant which were much more conventional. It turned out that is what people want in a compact car.

The sporty Monza did comparatively well. It turned out a lot of sports car fans with small budgets saw it as an alternative to a Porsche.

Meanwhile Chevy quickly came out with the Chevy II, an utterly boring car right down to the name. It was the car they wished they had made in the first place.

Corvair had its place in the Chevrolet line for 9 years which is about as long as most cars last. It was replaced by the Vega as their smallest model.

[prewarnut]

8 hours ago, powerband said:

 

I rolled a '64 bug with the axles folding underneath, landed on wheels

 

 

   My mom did too! 🙃

[Pomeroy41144]

I read Unsafe at Any Speed when I was a student.  

[B Jake Moran]

9 hours ago, bryankazmer said:

Not at all true as far as design intent.  It, like the Citroen 2CV and the Model T, was mean to be in many cases the first car a family could afford. Hence the name « Volkswagen. »

Not in the US.  Germany yes.  In the 1930’s Germany was still in the depression. Most families could afford no car. So yes, it was the family car. 
 

But in the US, most sales went to families as a 2nd car or as GM put it - to college nerds and professors.  

[Pfeil]

3 hours ago, Ed Luddy said:

The 1st gen Corvairs had different tire pressure recommendations for front and rear and labels also. Of course nobody paid any attention to that.

 

This makes a huge difference in VW and Porsche. In my two beetles (1964-65) I run 22 PSI front and 38 PSI rear/ it gets me the best handling of a stock suspension, best mileage, and best tire wear. I was never able to wear out a set of Michelin 165SR-15 XZX's and they exceeded their safe time by 20+years. Of course these are beetles, so, drive them and never push them beyond their capabilities and that goes for their engines too.