Matt88RegalCustom Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 Does anyone have any exploded engine diagram pictures of the 231CI 3.8L V6 “LD5” trying to find one online but I can’t seem to find any so I can completely take apart the engine on my 1984 Buick regal that is currently locked up at the moment and I have other questions on how to take certain parts off to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 If you are that deep into the engine, free diagrams from the web wouldn't be my first choice. Spend the money and buy yourself a real factory Chassis Service Manual - a paper original, not a PDF copy that was scanned and lost details. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt88RegalCustom Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 Alright I will buy one when I get the time to. but also does anyone know how to take the fan clutch off these engines because I’ve been at it for a few days now and I couldn’t make it budge I took the 4 bolts off that attaches the fan to it and the spring on the front of the clutch but I still can’t get it off. If anyone knows please help me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAKerry Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 Im not sure the fan clutch is made to come off the blade. Is it riveted on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 If the four nuts have been removed from the water pump flange, then it should come off. It is probably just stuck to the water pump flange/shaft. Try some WD-40 and tapping with a hammer around the circumference of the flange. The 'spring' you removed is the thermostatic coil that controls clutch engagement. Put that back where it came from! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt88RegalCustom Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 Just now, TAKerry said: Im not sure the fan clutch is made to come off the blade. Is it riveted on? I’m not quiet sure what does that exactly mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt88RegalCustom Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 Just now, EmTee said: If the four nuts have been removed from the water pump flange, then it should come off. It is probably just stuck to the water pump flange/shaft. Try some WD-40 and tapping with a hammer around the circumference of the flange. The 'spring' you removed is the thermostatic coil that controls clutch engagement. Put that back where it came from! Yeah I took the 4 bolts off and that spring inside which I’m gonna need replaced because it’s messed up now and I sprayed PB Blaster in side the area behind the clutch and in the area where the spring was and I was banging it with a hammer for quite a bit and nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt88RegalCustom Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 Are those springs replaceable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt88RegalCustom Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 The spring snapped off when I got to the end of it when Taking it off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 1 minute ago, Matt88RegalCustom said: I’m not quiet sure what does that exactly mean. The spring is not supposed to be removed from the fan clutch. The clutch and fan come off the water pump as an assembly. Remove the four nuts that hold the clutch to the water pump flange. The clutch will likely be stuck to the pump flange, which requires careful prying to remove it. Try to resist the urge to break things until you know what you are doing. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 A little heat from a propane torch may help. Warm the mounting flange then spray penetrating oil at the interface. Let it cool, lather, rinse and repeat... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) The zinc plating on the clutch flange expands as it corrodes with age. That effectively wedges it to the pump shaft. Just be patient and work a small chisel into the joint between the water pump flange and the clutch flange. Repeated heat/cool cycles with WD-40 should eventually get it free. Edited February 12 by EmTee (see edit history) 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt88RegalCustom Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 3 minutes ago, joe_padavano said: The spring is not supposed to be removed from the fan clutch. The clutch and fan come off the water pump as an assembly. Remove the four nuts that hold the clutch to the water pump flange. The clutch will likely be stuck to the pump flange, which requires careful prying to remove it. Try to resist the urge to break things until you know what you are doing. yeah I know it’s upsetting that’s what snapped off on me at the very end 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAKerry Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 10 minutes ago, Matt88RegalCustom said: I’m not quiet sure what does that exactly mean. Sorry Brain Fart, Joe P's pic is what I had in my mind. Thinking about the mounting stem. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 Not the end of the world - you can buy a new fan clutch. Worst case scenario is you may have to remove the water pump and fan together, then separate them at your workbench where you have more options... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt88RegalCustom Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 (edited) 3 minutes ago, EmTee said: Not the end of the world - you can buy a new fan clutch. Worst case scenario is you may have to remove the water pump and fan together, then separate them at your workbench where you have more options... Alright I’m trying to take off the water pump but I already took off the belts off the Air pump and alternator am I gonna have to put those back on so it stops spinning when I try to loosen the bolts Edited February 12 by Matt88RegalCustom (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 OK - before going any further, what caused you to try to remove the fan in the first place...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt88RegalCustom Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 4 minutes ago, EmTee said: OK - before going any further, what caused you to try to remove the fan in the first place...? I was taking the engine apart because it locked up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 Ah - OK then. Carry on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 Stupid question of the day..... Do you know for sure that the engine is locked-up? Have you checked for a strong battery and working starter? Can you get a socket on the crankshaft pulley bolt to see if the crankshaft spins? You can also try turning the engine at the ring gear on the flex plate. Just my 2 cents' worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt88RegalCustom Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Harold said: Stupid question of the day..... Do you know for sure that the engine is locked-up? Have you checked for a strong battery and working starter? Can you get a socket on the crankshaft pulley bolt to see if the crankshaft spins? You can also try turning the engine at the ring gear on the flex plate. Just my 2 cents' worth. Yeah had new battery and new starter put in and same result unfortunately. I just tried to spin that one yesteryday and I couldn’t get it to budge Edited February 12 by Matt88RegalCustom (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt88RegalCustom Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 (edited) 35 minutes ago, EmTee said: Ah - OK then. Carry on! Should I put the alternator and air pump back on with the belts so I can take the water pump pulley off? Because when I try to take it off it just spins Edited February 12 by Matt88RegalCustom (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 What about a seized water pump or alternator? You would not be the first. Take off the belts and see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 I would suggest that before you disassemble anything else, pull all the spark plugs, put a socket and breaker bar on the balancer bolt, and see if you can turn the engine over. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 2 hours ago, Matt88RegalCustom said: Should I put the alternator and air pump back on with the belts so I can take the water pump pulley off? OK, confused here. ❓ A fan clutch is used on longitudinal engines (the normal engine placement for years, not transverse FWD) since the fan assembly (blade/thermostatic clutch/hub) typically bolts to the water pump shaft's hub, like the pictures shown above. Are these not the 4 bolts you mentioned you removed? The 4 bolts/studs that go through these 4 slots here and into the water pump hub?: 3 hours ago, EmTee said: Or did you remove the 4 short bolts that hold the fan to the thermostatic clutch? Or does your fan clutch not look at all like this picture? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 51 minutes ago, Frank DuVal said: OK, confused here. ❓ A fan clutch is used on longitudinal engines (the normal engine placement for years, not transverse FWD) since the fan assembly (blade/thermostatic clutch/hub) typically bolts to the water pump shaft's hub, like the pictures shown above. And the 1984 Regal is front engine/rear drive. What's the confusion? I got the sense he removed the bolts holding the fan to the clutch, not the clutch to the water pump. Keeping the V-belts in place definitely help when trying to loosen those nuts on the water pump flange. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 Kinda putting the cart before the horse if you are going to rebuild the engine. Take it out of the car to work on it. 5 hours ago, joe_padavano said: Try to resist the urge to break things until you know what you are doing. I agree that you need to make sure it is indeed locked up. Did something happen while driving or was it parked in the rain for a few years and now will not crank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 (edited) On 2/12/2024 at 2:12 PM, joe_padavano said: I got the sense he removed the bolts holding the fan to the clutch, not the clutch to the water pump. Keeping the V-belts in place definitely help when trying to loosen those nuts on the water pump flange. That's the confusion, which nuts/bolts did he remove already! ❓ 🤔 To hold the water pump hub steady on a longitudinal engine vehicle, just use a screwdriver/pry bar between the bolts/nuts and the shaft of the fan clutch, no belts needed. Much easier than using the screwdriver/pry bar on the bolts holding the belt pulley to the water pump hub on transverse engines. Note there are FWD vehicles with longitudinal engines, GM & SAAB to name two companies that made them.😉 Edited February 13 by Frank DuVal (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 4 hours ago, Frank DuVal said: That's the confusion, which nuts/bolts did he remove already! ❓ 🤔 To hold the water pump hub steady on a longitudinal engine vehicle, just use a screwdriver/pry bar between the bolts/nuts and the shaft of the fan clutch, no belts needed. Much easier than using the screwdriver/pry bar on the bolts holding the belt pulley to the water pump hub on transverse engines. Note there are FWD vehicles with longitudinal engines, GM & SAAB to name two companies that made them.😉 The screwdriver wedged between the shaft and one of the fasteners is how I usually do it, but I've also done it by leaving the belts on. Either way works. I guarantee that the screwdriver will slip at least once during the process, resulting in skinned knuckles. 😝 And yeah, any FWD vehicle with a TH425 or TH325, including some that used this exact engine. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt88RegalCustom Posted February 24 Author Share Posted February 24 On 2/12/2024 at 1:19 PM, Frank DuVal said: OK, confused here. ❓ A fan clutch is used on longitudinal engines (the normal engine placement for years, not transverse FWD) since the fan assembly (blade/thermostatic clutch/hub) typically bolts to the water pump shaft's hub, like the pictures shown above. Are these not the 4 bolts you mentioned you removed? The 4 bolts/studs that go through these 4 slots here and into the water pump hub?: Or did you remove the 4 short bolts that hold the fan to the thermostatic clutch? Or does your fan clutch not look at all like this picture? I removed 4 bolts attaching fan to clutch i just went to far ahead and didn’t think but I got the water pump off. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt88RegalCustom Posted February 24 Author Share Posted February 24 On 2/12/2024 at 2:12 PM, joe_padavano said: And the 1984 Regal is front engine/rear drive. What's the confusion? I got the sense he removed the bolts holding the fan to the clutch, not the clutch to the water pump. Keeping the V-belts in place definitely help when trying to loosen those nuts on the water pump flange. Yeah that’s what I did i just jumped to far ahead and didn’t think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt88RegalCustom Posted February 24 Author Share Posted February 24 (edited) On 2/13/2024 at 9:19 PM, joe_padavano said: The screwdriver wedged between the shaft and one of the fasteners is how I usually do it, but I've also done it by leaving the belts on. Either way works. I guarantee that the screwdriver will slip at least once during the process, resulting in skinned knuckles. 😝 And yeah, any FWD vehicle with a TH425 or TH325, including some that used this exact engine. Yeah that’s what I did wrong you live and you learn. I’m gonna leave belts on next time to do it would make my life easier 😂 Edited February 24 by Matt88RegalCustom (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt88RegalCustom Posted February 24 Author Share Posted February 24 The 231 engine I got had engine knock when I purchased it so I knew it was gonna be fragile so when I got it running the first time for like 2 minutes I got happy and so dedicated that I came back the next day to start it again and I kept spraying carb cleaner in it which I definitely did to much like way to much because the car was sitting for awhile so I thought it would need a lot of it then I started it which in which it started again and Ran for like 10 seconds but then immediately stopped which made me assume that I either locked up the engine or flooded it just really don’t know what happened to it. If anyone knows what I did to it just let me know I have heard those engines have history of having bad valve trains and being unreliable but I can be wrong but if anyone is really good with the engines just let me know if I locked it up or flooded/seized it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 3 hours ago, Matt88RegalCustom said: I have heard those engines have history of having bad valve trains and being unreliable 231? No, never heard that! If the engine was so bad, Buick would have never bought the tooling back from American Motors (Buick sold them the tooling after the 1967 model year for them to use in the Jeep) for use in the 1975 model year! They continued to use/update the engine into the 2005 model year! A real workhorse of an engine. It powered the 1978 Buick GNX! Fastest production car IN THE WORLD that year!!!!!!!!!!🍾😁 But, owners can kill anything.....😮 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 8 hours ago, Frank DuVal said: 231? No, never heard that! If the engine was so bad, Buick would have never bought the tooling back from American Motors (Buick sold them the tooling after the 1967 model year for them to use in the Jeep) for use in the 1975 model year! They continued to use/update the engine into the 2005 model year! A real workhorse of an engine. It powered the 1978 Buick GNX! Fastest production car IN THE WORLD that year!!!!!!!!!!🍾😁 But, owners can kill anything.....😮 3.8 is 231. It was odd fire. Great engines. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt88RegalCustom Posted February 24 Author Share Posted February 24 2 hours ago, avgwarhawk said: 3.8 is 231. It was odd fire. Great engines. Yeah heard they were great on gas to just heard from a handful of people that it had a handful of problems but that’s typical with any engine 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt88RegalCustom Posted February 24 Author Share Posted February 24 11 hours ago, Frank DuVal said: 231? No, never heard that! If the engine was so bad, Buick would have never bought the tooling back from American Motors (Buick sold them the tooling after the 1967 model year for them to use in the Jeep) for use in the 1975 model year! They continued to use/update the engine into the 2005 model year! A real workhorse of an engine. It powered the 1978 Buick GNX! Fastest production car IN THE WORLD that year!!!!!!!!!!🍾😁 But, owners can kill anything.....😮 Alright 😁 just hope mine is gonna be saveable It might be a better option to swap it with a Buick 350 but if I have the ability to rebuild the engine I will try 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 (edited) 2 hours ago, avgwarhawk said: 3.8 is 231. It was odd fire. Great engines. No, his is even fire just like the GNX. Odd fire was last built for the 1977 model year. Even fire was in the 1978 model year. You can tell even from odd real easy, since there is a distributor on these engines. If there are 8 towers and two are not used, it is odd fire. 6 towers, it is even fire.😉 So, even fire from 1978 on into the 3800 series . Yes, 3800 series have no distributors.😁 Edited February 24 by Frank DuVal (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt88RegalCustom Posted February 25 Author Share Posted February 25 I know this is dumb to ask but when I sprayed the whole carb clean bottle over a period of 2-3 days to get running did that cause my motor to lock up or flood because it was running then it immediately stopped 10 seconds after running and the day prior I had it running for like 2 minutes when I didn’t have a lot of carb cleaner in it just let me know please could save me a lot of time and help me out 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 You probably washed the oil off the pistons and diluted the oil in the crankcase. A shot of carb cleaner to diagnose a 'no-start' condition is OK, however, running an engine for any length of time that way can cause problems... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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