What's your experience with Restoration Shops, good and bad?

[McLovin]

On 11/29/2023 at 4:25 PM, Scooter Guy said:

This is, unfortunately, not an uncommon scenario. 

 

My observation and opinion is that many restorers and shops are run by folks that really do love cars and may be exceptionally good at working on them but that those same people often have no interest or skills in the business side of the operation. That is, things like scheduling/timelines and project management. Some struggle with communication to their customers, others have issues on the financial side with invoicing and collecting payments. Some just plain bite off more than they can chew and complicated projects languish while the shop decides to fish or cut bait, and some don't even realize that they've done it until they walk in one day there isn't anywhere else to park one more car. 

 

 What to do about it depends on how badly you want the skills of any particular restorer. It really comes down to tolerating the way they do business or moving on. And I don't mean to minimize moving on either: if you've got a car torn apart in someone's shop, it's much easier said than done to tell someone to cut their losses and move on. There certainly are those unicorn shops out there that don't have issues but they're really few and far between. 

Well put Scooter, you described this guy well. Thanks.

[McLovin]

On 12/1/2023 at 2:19 PM, Peter Gariepy said:

Not meant to be funny.

 

Yes. You picked the shops. No doubt hopeful at their ability to do the job. But you also left the vehicle at the shop for years.  6 years by your own admission in one case.  The shops may have been bad, but your lack of holding them accountable played into it as well.   Take some responsibility.
 

I stand by my comment:  Your post and topic are both hyperbolic and anecdotal.  Not all shops are bad, and your experience is NOT representative of most restoration shops.

I never said all shops were bad. My question and title was "are all auto restoration shops flaky"? Which you felt the need to alter. It appears you are the moderator of this forum and it would seem that in that position you wouldn't be giving your own defensive opinions, Perhaps you get a kick out of other forum members responses to them? Peter, I do realize I need to take some responsibility for the time frame but I am the customer and the business did come to me with a written estimate and time frame of one year that has turned into six. When your car is in a million pieces and your three year old paid parts order with them is still incomplete it's hard just to pack it up and take it somewhere else, especially in Alaska where options are few. I have and will be putting as much pressure on the shop as possible as it's really not that far from the finish line, just beyond what I could do myself. I apologize for the response to TTR as I didn't take his response as a joke as I should have. McLovin.

[TTR]

Dear McLovin, I appreciate your comment and understanding, along with your willingness to acknowledge/admit your own responsibility.

 

Unfortunately, your predicament is more common than most realize or are willing to admit.

There are "good shops" out there, but unfortunately also plenty that aren't and finding one to fit each individuals expectations can be more than difficult and frustrating.  

 

Following comment is not directed at you McLovin, but intended as generalizing

based on my 30+ year experience and "industry insider" observations as a professional restorer (& nearly 45 years as a enthusiast/hobbyist):

Same can be said of “restoration” customers.
There are good ones, but many more who don’t understand they shouldn’t attempt or commission restorations for any/many number of reasons, including cost, quality & time expectations, etc so when two “bad/flaky” representatives from each camp decide to do business with each other, chances of a disaster or unhappy outcome are multiplied. 
 

Just this past week I received two unexpected/unsolicited* requests for complete/comprehensive restorations, but (almost)** managed to talk myself out of both by just explaining what such jobs actually require.

 

* Mind you I don’t advertise/solicit for jobs anywhere and never have.

** Well, one requestor(sp ?) didn’t seem faced by my reasoning of general financial & timeline expectations (i.e. “reality check”) etc, but instead, asked me to reconsider/think about it for awhile and the put him on the waiting list, even though the costs alone would far exceed the perceived value of his car, actually a few times over.
 

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by TTR (see edit history)

[Bryan G]

I ran the family business, which was an old-fashioned "soup-to-nuts" body shop. Pretty much, if it would fit in the door, we'd work on it. (And some things that wouldn't fit!) We always had at least one restoration project. I tried very hard to never get overwhelmed with them. Every single time one came in, like clockwork, we got busy with insurance work. There were times when I had a list of 10-15 people who wanted to bring some old car or truck in, and when it came time to call I might skip around. Why deal with a Chevelle that was pulled out of a swamp when I can do a straightforward refinish on a solid tri-five from out west?

 

I had some customers with large collections, and a dealer who sold lots of old Corvettes, and they were my favorite kind of restoration customer. We both knew what to expect from each other. The worst were the guys who said they weren't in a hurry, then hassled you constantly. I recall someone dropping off a car in April and needing it back for a wedding in October. We weren't prepared to start when he dropped it, and I told him that, with assurances that we'd have it ready. He left his enclosed trailer so we could store it when it wasn't being worked on. After our first week's worth of work (around the first of June) he just came by one night and took the car/trailer. Never heard from him again. Never paid for the work I did. Stupid me. 

 

Quite a lot of folks have no idea just how poor a condition their car is in. Just because you can buy every part for that mobile out of a catalog, doesn't mean you should. Yes, we could build you a '66 Mustang. Why not just buy one pre-assembled? Be a lot easier, lot cheaper!

[McLovin]

On 12/2/2023 at 6:55 PM, TTR said:

Dear McLovin, I appreciate your comment and understanding, along with your willingness to acknowledge/admit your own responsibility.

 

Unfortunately, your predicament is more common than most realize or are willing to admit.

There are "good shops" out there, but unfortunately also plenty that aren't and finding one to fit each individuals expectations can be more than difficult and frustrating.  

 

Following comment is not directed at you McLovin, but intended as generalizing

based on my 30+ year experience and "industry insider" observations as a professional restorer (& nearly 45 years as a enthusiast/hobbyist):

Same can be said of “restoration” customers.
There are good ones, but many more who don’t understand they shouldn’t attempt or commission restorations for any/many number of reasons, including cost, quality & time expectations, etc so when two “bad/flaky” representatives from each camp decide to do business with each other, chances of a disaster or unhappy outcome are multiplied. 
 

Just this past week I received two unexpected/unsolicited* requests for complete/comprehensive restorations, but (almost)** managed to talk myself out of both by just explaining what such jobs actually require.

 

* Mind you I don’t advertise/solicit for jobs anywhere and never have.

** Well, one requestor(sp ?) didn’t seem faced by my reasoning of general financial & timeline expectations (i.e. “reality check”) etc, but instead, asked me to reconsider/think about it for awhile and the put him on the waiting list, even though the costs alone would far exceed the perceived value of his car, actually a few times over.
 

 

Hey TTR, I liked your perspective on the bad customer scenario as I've seen that to be true myself throughout my 40 years in retail sales before retiring 3 years ago. Some customers you want to hug, others you want to shoot and everything in between! One of the first things I learned is to take care of the customer and if you promise something you damn better deliver on it. It's proven that a negative experience is five times more likely to be communicated than a positive one to others. I think being on the receiving end of business complaints for so long and putting out the fires has made me more tolerant than most as a customer which has been to my detriment in the Mach 1 restoration. Since I've shown sympathy to his past explanations of poor staffing, his divorce, his aging parents, etc, I have apparently conditioned him to "slow walk" my project assuming I'll understand. Since retirement I've had more time to drop by and have more serious conversations with him, expressing my anger, disappointment and frustration for his continued broken promises of progress. He always apologizes, promises progress and the cycle continues. One thing I just can't get used to is a man making a promise, looking you in the eye, shaking your hand and  not delivering as that's not how I was raised or how I conducted business in my career. I'll continue to push forward, stay in contact and perhaps with some luck and persuasiveness by the end of next summer will finally have it back. Thanks, McLovin.

[alsancle]

Here is the issue in a nutshell.  If you send a car in for a finite task like an engine rebuild, or a paint job then you have a decent chance of it getting done and you getting the car back.  If you send a car in to any shop for a full restoration that project will take years.   The reason is that a full restoration requires all kinds of external dependencies that will slow the project down.    You could send the chrome out and never get it back.  Or wait on some special part or instrument rebuild that could take forever.

 

When the restorer is waiting, for any reason the car gets pushed in the corner.   Sometimes that reason is the customer can't keep up with the billing.  Once it is in the corner it could sit there for months or years.

 

Also,  the subject car of this thread is not a "restoration" in the traditional way we use it on this forum.   Clearly you are changing what is original.   The good news is that means you can cut corners and get the job done much faster.   For example you are not trying to find date coded parts to your car.

 

I had a friend who restored a 1969 Mustang to perfect standards.   That project took 20 years and 160K.   It started and stopped for long periods for lots of reasons.   None of which were the restorers fault.

 

The biggest mistake I see many restorers make is taking projects that they know in their hearts are doomed.   But they hate to turn away business.  But in the end they probably wish they turned the customer away.   I believe there are as many bad restoration shops as bad customers.

[McLovin]

17 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Here is the issue in a nutshell.  If you send a car in for a finite task like an engine rebuild, or a paint job then you have a decent chance of it getting done and you getting the car back.  If you send a car in to any shop for a full restoration that project will take years.   The reason is that a full restoration requires all kinds of external dependencies that will slow the project down.    You could send the chrome out and never get it back.  Or wait on some special part or instrument rebuild that could take forever.

 

When the restorer is waiting, for any reason the car gets pushed in the corner.   Sometimes that reason is the customer can't keep up with the billing.  Once it is in the corner it could sit there for months or years.

 

Also,  the subject car of this thread is not a "restoration" in the traditional way we use it on this forum.   Clearly you are changing what is original.   The good news is that means you can cut corners and get the job done much faster.   For example you are not trying to find date coded parts to your car.

 

I had a friend who restored a 1969 Mustang to perfect standards.   That project took 20 years and 160K.   It started and stopped for long periods for lots of reasons.   None of which were the restorers fault.

 

The biggest mistake I see many restorers make is taking projects that they know in their hearts are doomed.   But they hate to turn away business.  But in the end they probably wish they turned the customer away.   I believe there are as many bad restoration shops as bad customers.

Some good points and I appreciate it. The shop that has it primarily builds race cars and also custom fabricates for that purpose. This is right up his alley and he was excited to take it on and pick up where the last shop left off. Almost all sheet metal replaced, mustang two suspension, front floor pans, windshield pillar repair, subframe rail repair all done. Floor tunnel needs to be enlarged to fit the 6-speed tremec and 428 FE motor to be fit over new suspension. Older body and paint guy and his son who works for the owner have been waiting close to 3 years for the powertrain mock up fitment so they can finish the body and paint and interior. Quite a project, I know and if I hadn't had it since 1983 I probably wouldn't have bothered. 11 years ago I drove to the first shop, shock towers cracked, suspension and  steering worn out, 351 Windsor and fmx leaking and tired but still running. I've found out that nostalgia can be a very expensive type of emotion! lol. Thanks, McLovin.

[TAKerry]

McLovin, I think you and I have the same attitude in a lot of ways. I have been dealing with people professionally forever. I always like to think the customer is right but sometimes just not the case. I was in the same situation when having the motor for my Trans Am rebuilt. I know the owner of the shop well. I dropped it off right when covid hit and figured he would have it done in a month or two like the previous motor he built for me. 3 1/2 years later I had it back in my shop. I put my trials and tribulations down on another forum of the long drawn out process. The bottom line was everyone rightfully so thought I was a chump for letting this guy take advantage of me. I knew in the big picture it was best to leave the motor there. I got it back this past summer, just now getting to buttoning up things so I can get it running. But I know it will be a great running motor that will provide me with plenty of enjoyment. As long as the guy keeps moving forward sounds like you will be ok. I wish you the best of luck.

[TTR]

13 hours ago, alsancle said:

Here is the issue in a nutshell.  If you send a car in for a finite task like an engine rebuild, or a paint job then you have a decent chance of it getting done and you getting the car back.  If you send a car in to any shop for a full restoration that project will take years.   The reason is that a full restoration requires all kinds of external dependencies that will slow the project down.    You could send the chrome out and never get it back.  Or wait on some special part or instrument rebuild that could take forever.

 

When the restorer is waiting, for any reason the car gets pushed in the corner.   Sometimes that reason is the customer can't keep up with the billing.  Once it is in the corner it could sit there for months or years.

 

I had a friend who restored a 1969 Mustang to perfect standards.   That project took 20 years and 160K.   It started and stopped for long periods for lots of reasons.   None of which were the restorers fault.

 

The biggest mistake I see many restorers make is taking projects that they know in their hearts are doomed.   But they hate to turn away business.  But in the end they probably wish they turned the customer away.   I believe there are as many bad restoration shops as bad customers.

There are shops/restorers who can deliver complete/comprehensive restorations in timely manner, let’s say in 1-2 years or even less, but since we all know (or should know) that restoring most postwar and many prewar cars, especially complex higher-end/luxury examples can easily take several thousand hours at minimum to accomplish, it’s just a matter of dedicating sufficient amount of personnel and time to it.

 

But as you pointed out, how many customers/owners are able/willing to deal with a shop that can assign, let’s say three guys, to work full time (40 hrs week ?) on a single project and if a deadline (a show or something) is approaching, perhaps they can assign one or more guys at it to expedite to process ?

 

I’ve done several complete restorations on postwar luxury and sports cars in relatively short timeline, but ones that ended up taking more than 3 years were commissioned/owned by customers who didn’t have financial wherewithal to see them through as originally agreed (I had offered rough estimates up front).
Due to this couple of them even changed ownership during restoration, one project even twice before it was finished in about 5 years, instead of in originally agreed/estimated 2.5-3.

 

So yes, it is very common that customers and shops end up agreeing on terms that are completely unrealistic for both them.

[McLovin]

4 hours ago, TAKerry said:

McLovin, I think you and I have the same attitude in a lot of ways. I have been dealing with people professionally forever. I always like to think the customer is right but sometimes just not the case. I was in the same situation when having the motor for my Trans Am rebuilt. I know the owner of the shop well. I dropped it off right when covid hit and figured he would have it done in a month or two like the previous motor he built for me. 3 1/2 years later I had it back in my shop. I put my trials and tribulations down on another forum of the long drawn out process. The bottom line was everyone rightfully so thought I was a chump for letting this guy take advantage of me. I knew in the big picture it was best to leave the motor there. I got it back this past summer, just now getting to buttoning up things so I can get it running. But I know it will be a great running motor that will provide me with plenty of enjoyment. As long as the guy keeps moving forward sounds like you will be ok. I wish you the best of luck.

TAKerry,Good stuff, thanks for that!