padgett Posted June 7, 2003 Share Posted June 7, 2003 I think of them more related to the electronics but do not consider ones before 1987 "C" engine which added roller lifters and the balance shaft.The next division was in 1991 when the programming for the "E" trans was added and the snakes intake appeared - "L" engine. Still with the P-4 computer and 256k PROM. ESC got triple oval coils instead of square coilpack. Greg - is this when the EGR went to the single unit instead of the mushroom ? My '92 Transport does not seem to have an EGR.Believe the 1994-95 went to a 512k PROM and ABS function was added. ECM became the "Powertrain Control Module"1995 introduced the SII and OBDII (On Board Disgnostics) replaced the ALDL serial stream essential to run the Reatta dashboard. Can mix and match a lot from an electrical standpoint since all are based on MAF and not MAP, standard GM O2 sensor, TPS, and MAT.Greg what is your opinion of the Crane cam ? Was a bit "more" than any factory 3800 cam we saw - as much as Crane was willing to go for a computer car. Did it wake up the top end (dead top is not what you want with a manual trans) ?Have a tremendous amount of data on the computers, really just needs to be converted to information. Can put on a CD. Where is a 20-something nerd without a life willing to learn the Motorolla/Hitachi 68HC11 when you need one ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Greg Ross Posted June 7, 2003 Share Posted June 7, 2003 Padgett,The '92-93 Park Ave.(Incl S/C) manual shows the 3 stage EGR same as was on the '88 Reatta. The '94 3800 Series I Intake manifold, etc. from a LeSabre caried the progressive(single Coil) EGR. The other notable change was to relocate the EGR to the front of the 3800 where the Dog Bone Strut resides on the '88.The Crane Cam I believe really woke this engine up, The purrrr range is about 3000 to 4800 rpm. Using Hal's conservative factor of 1.32 x MAF I'm making in excess of 200 net HP over 4500 rpm. I still have the MSD Ignition retarding from 5500 rpm (where the cut-off cuts in?)Seat of the Pants Torque value, I think it's peaking above 3500 rpm vs 1800 on the 3.8"C" About 55 mph in 3rd gear is where you can really feel it pulling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 7, 2003 Share Posted June 7, 2003 How much did that cam cost ya? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Greg Ross Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 This is a regrind proposition, I sent them a new GM 3800 Series I cam and they returned a Crane HR-202/286-2-12Contact their Tech Line and talk to Dave Maxwell, he might remember my name, maybe not! Anyway quote the above Grind Reference and he should recognize it.The price was about $150. plus a few dollars for shiping. Cost me a few dollars for ABS Pipe and End Caps for my shipping to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Greg simplified things a bit, quite a bit of research, number crunching, and Dyno 2000 modeling went on for that selection. In simple terms it is more but not too much: about 10 degrees more on intake and exhaust and a bit more lift (but not enough to require non-stock springs) and ground to accept roller lifters.This last was a hard point. There are a number of Series II cams and there are a number of cams for the GNs (pre-roller) but not much for the S I 3800 with rollers yet the rollers and the balance shaft are both desirable for smoothness and efficiency. In addition, Crane was having quality problems with their blank supplier hence the need to provide one for them to regrind.Think this was the baseline for the cam. Hard part was finding something with high efficiency at a 2000-2200 rpm cruise yet would pull to 5,000 rpm. Not the extra duration and lift on the exhaust. This does two things:1) Have found that Pontiac V-8s really like it and the prot design on the 3800 is similar.2) Is what you want for a mildly boosted engine anyway.Might also mention that Crane is a Florida company I have delt with for many years and really understands cams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Greg Ross Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 The Link that Padgett posted listed pre-'86 engines.The Grind Ref. HR-202/ 286-2-12 came with the notation on the Tag"1987 & up 3.8L V-6" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Good, well Ive got the cam out of the way then. Geeze, This is easy, you guys do all the research for me. I might have to start paying you guys before you go on strike or call the Union. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 Personally, juicing and boosting scares me. I've always been a naturally-aspirated, fully carbuerated V8 kind of guy so I've taken the same approach with my Reatta. The engine is basically an SBC with 2 cylinders chopped off, after all. With rollers, metal timing set and a decent bore, this is a pretty good engine to begin with...My suggestion for more power is to simply let the engine breathe. Open up the intake with aftermarket (K&N) cone filtering, put in a comp cat converter and true dual cat-back exhaust, get a JET prom, and then hit the machine shop. You need to get the intake and heads port-matched and polished for flow. Find an import hop-shop and have them open up the throttle body, as well. You'll easily hit 240+ horsepower without force-feeding the engine, adding load to the crankshaft or burning out a piston with too much NOS.If you want more than that, you may be using the car inappropriately for its design <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />Just my $0.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2seater Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 Please do not call the 3800 engine a derivative of a SBC, it's not. The internal construction is completely different and is based on a Buick V8 bore and stroke. Not all the SBC stuff works the same on a Buick engine, they are more geared for torque rather than lots of revs. That said, improving the breathing and other changes mentioned are valid, but 240 N/A hp is a stretch if it has to be computer friendly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 Okay, started nosing around under the hood for a place to mount the turbo. After the o2 sensor there is a mount where that pipe and the exaust pipe mounts up. If I hack that mounting bracket, add the bracket for the turbo and bolt it there, finish the exhaust there, and then let it go, will that work well? I dont want to mess with too much exhaust change for the turbo, but the intercooling piping will be a little more difficult (but I know someone who will do it.) So with that Turbo setup, will it work well? Im planning to run 12-15 psi on a engine built by Edlebrock or Jasper or a company like that. I want about 300-400 HP on a 80% duty cycle so Im not slaying the engine, but it will get up a go. Yes I know 300-400hp out of a reatta is pushing the limits, but hey, worlds fastest reatta? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2seater Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 The nicest place for the turbo would be at the location you mention since it is where the exhaust comes together in stock form. I do not believe there is enough room for the turbo itself to be located there, plus routing of the air intake and compressor outlet piping would be a real pain, if you can find room at all. Try experimenting with sticking a piece of 2.25" or 2.5" exhaust tubing through some of the areas you will have to route it and you will find there is almost no room anywhere. It would be a great setup if you can figure that one out. There is an advantage to only having to route air piping through the tight areas, it could be run with almost zero clearance as heat will not be a large factor to deal with. A substantial upgrade in the transaxle department would be an absolute requirement too. There are nasty computer and engine control problems to deal with also, so be prepared to do that as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 Well the turbo isnt that big, its more of a longer. I think the turbo will fit, but the piping will require some customization. As for computers, Im going to use a $1500 Haltec unit as a piggy back system and allow the ecm to run the digital dash and [censored] like that. Transaxle is going to be a beefed up 5 speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigsteviejoe Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 That post is the first I've heard of a company like Haltech. What an awesome find. I've done many searches with different key words and have not found any places like them. What model (controller) are you looking at purchasing? $1500 may be the high end one.Are you staying with a series 1 3.8litre 6?Do you have any ideas where to get the beefed 5spd from? When it comes to fwd 5spd conversions is there any reason for staying with GM at this point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Im going to use the E6K unit flying lead unit, but with some goodies thrown in. I am staying with a 3.8L and the 5 speed is going to come from a GM car, but its gonna take a trip to the tranny shop for a rebuild and beef up. If you can find another 5 speed that will mount up besides GM lemme know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest trofeo73 Posted August 2, 2003 Share Posted August 2, 2003 I am thrilled to see more people experimenting with this! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />Dont be afraid, it DOES work and quite well,,, with the exception of a few bugs to work out. I ran mid to low 14s with no intercooler and stock fuel system, so it CAN and has been done by Hal and I. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />A tranny rebuild/upgrade is advisable though. I would conservatively estimate porting, ect only nets 20 or so hp at the most, IF and I say IF someone offered stroker kits, nasty cams, high comp pistons, radical computer, ect, 240 hp could be attained, but more of the import cars are catered to that dept. The only alternative to fealing REAL results is, at this time, forced induction; it works sooooo good. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> My trofeo amazed many of the import crowd here with its awsome display of low end tire buring torque and simple (cheap) turbo kit design,(by me of course). Gave my friends WRX a real run for his money, beat me by a third of a car length at most.....I may keep the Trofeo and redo the turbo kit adding a bigger or two turbos with a 3 inch long down pipe after the turbo to give it the jet engine takeoff noise it had last spring. BTW the riv is running great , a used engine from a 95 delta 88 royale with 70k on with was installed.. Runs real well now, no knock. I was close to losing a rod at the time. The oil pan was mashed so far up, it slowly killed the engine CHECK THAT OIL PAN!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 2, 2003 Share Posted August 2, 2003 Yea Im waiting on responses from a few engine companies on prices and then I will start the build. I hope to have the fastest reatta at the next meet which I want to attend. 300+ HP will be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigsteviejoe Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 I haven't found out anything about non GM trannys fitting. Something I'd like to share I found a site www.motorvation.tv and they claim to be able to make whatever kind of custom chip. No where did I see anything about the application having to be OBDII. They require the ECM #, injector flow rates, etc, a pretty detailed description they want. just wanted to share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2seater Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 I'll send them a post, but I do not have a lot of hope. Not to be a downer on this subject, because input is always appreciated, but so far all the computer programmer types I have conversed with don't know what to do for a boosted application. Part of the problem is the stock system is not calibrated to cover the air flow rates possible when pressurized. We go off the scale pretty easily so unless the tables can be extended by about 25% or so, the ECM cannot control the fuel and timing properly. For the time being I have turned my boost down to get the knock retard under better control, which has slowed the car as boost builds more slowly and is now good in the first two gears. Max boost through first and second gear is now 5psi but spikes up over 7 psi at the 2-3 shift and retard of 5-6 degrees results. The wastegate hole and "puck" that closes it needs to be larger in my particular application as it will still see a minimum of 3 psi boost in first gear with the wastegate blocked wide open. Greg Ross is having the same problem with his S/C application. There is an outfit called J&S Electronics that makes a timing control with individual cylinder retard. The almost $600 price has stopped me for now. I am convinced at this time that one or two cylinders are probably lean,(#1 & #2),under full boost due to the design of the intake plenum, where the air piles up on the opposite end from the intake. The GN guys have this problem too and have devised different solutions to this problem. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Don't have a good answer but know there is one. The MAF measurement can be extended to at least 250 gm/sec by changing a PROM variable and there aresome things you can do with the power enrichment (PE) tables.My problem is not being able but finding the time (in Huntsville last week, Kansas City (at 104F) this.The amount of data I have is measured in tens of megabyes but is all theoretical at this point, I just know it can be done (and have corresponded with a gentleman with a boosted Trofeo who has done it.Further, the s/c 3800 has a "boost dump" switch that would correspond nicely to a waste gate.Is a bit frustrating not to have a week with a dyno to do such properly but right now an up to eyeballs with Blaster and varients - if worried just replace TFTP.EXE in the system32 directory with NOTEPAD.EXE - make read-only (attrib +r ) so Windows won't fix it.However good news is yes, it can be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Hal, you might have to look into a piggy back system for the ECM problems. Plus that would give you accessibility to editable fuel maps and ignition control, if you wanted to spend the money. I know you HAVE to use a piggy back system due to the digital dash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssracing Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 you guys do know that 1996 to 1999 parks 98s bonnis and rivs had a ecm that had both data lines. Uart and high speed right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dship Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 (edited) Dude, you're replying to a post that's 18 years old! Edited April 17, 2022 by dship (see edit history) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2seater Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 3 hours ago, ssracing said: you guys do know that 1996 to 1999 parks 98s bonnis and rivs had a ecm that had both data lines. Uart and high speed right I know a lot more now than two decades ago. The funniest thing about this resurrected thread is my latest project is a supercharged variant🤔 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted April 18, 2022 Share Posted April 18, 2022 I used the '94 Buick Park Avenue Ultra maps to convert a Reatta to a L67 many years ago. Has anyone ever swapped in a LS4 ? 300 hp without boost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted April 18, 2022 Share Posted April 18, 2022 I have question about performance that is much more basic. Has anyone ever changed the differential ratio in the transaxle for better acceleration? In the old days that, and throwing on a set of headers, was the first thing we did to our hotrods before ever touching the engine. Well, maybe a nice set of wheels came first and then the other stuff. Nice wheels were mandatory even if your car was black primer. 😁 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2seater Posted April 18, 2022 Share Posted April 18, 2022 I have wondered about the LS conversion also. I am pretty sure it is all aluminum also. There are only a few engines with the GM metric bellhousing pattern which is peculiar to only a few engines, mostly the 60deg GM V6’s. I must say if I had things to do all over again I would have used the Series2 engines to start with, much like Daniel has done. If you start with a higher baseline, performance mods are generally magnified. I have heard of people doing a final drive ratio change, which I believe is relatively straightforward but I don’t have any example. GM did that, 3.33 final, on the 91 Reatta. It is my belief that was done to help the relatively soft low rpm torque of the Series 1 TPI engines. They do have a higher torque peak, by a small amount, but at a much higher rpm, which is where the increased hp comes from ad well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2seater Posted April 18, 2022 Share Posted April 18, 2022 I had calculated the relative axle ratio some time ago due to the 91 also running a taller tire, but the effective ratio is still lower. I estimated the change would be the same as an earlier Reatta running a 3.25 final drive. Essentially the difference works out to a bit over a nine percent rpm change at the same speed. You could get the same effect by running a 23.5” diameter tire🤨 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted April 19, 2022 Share Posted April 19, 2022 If boosting I'd dump the 440T4/4T60 for a 4T65E at least. L67s used to scatter theirs until GM softened the shifts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2seater Posted April 19, 2022 Share Posted April 19, 2022 18 minutes ago, padgett said: If boosting I'd dump the 440T4/4T60 for a 4T65E at least. L67s used to scatter theirs until GM softened the shifts. I agree. It is much of the reason I am generally cautious about the application of throttle at low speeds, but not always. I know it is a kind of fusible link in the drivetrain. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted April 20, 2022 Share Posted April 20, 2022 Have wondered about a LS4/4T80E from an Impala... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonlabree Posted April 23, 2022 Share Posted April 23, 2022 I had my stock transmission hardened. I am able to light-up the front wheels. It looks really weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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