A real and present danger to old car restoration

[Jack Bennett]

A complaint by those logging on to the Dodge Brothers Discussion forum is that the two posts leading into the automotive portion are the (aging) announcements of the death of a member.

Now, two of posts opening the AACA forum are also announcing the passing of a fellow classic or antique car collector.

Although I too share the grief in the passing of these people, that is not the purpose of this post.

While it must express my condolences in the mortal departure of these people from this earthly life, being as owner and collector of antique machinery, I must also acknowledge that a part of my ability to sustain my hobby has also diminished with their passing.

Perhaps, depending on who is asked their opinion, the interest in the hobby of restoring antique machinery has became a pass time of the elderly, or the aging. And, with the passing of every person who is a avid collector, or one who restores antique machinery as a 2nd nature of living, so passes a portion of the wisdom and ability of every person who also shares the hobby.

I would not hesitate to wager a bet that there is not a single member of this forum has not been vexed by their inability to obtain a much needed part to continue their antique car restoration project. I too am troubled by the non availability of parts, I have always considered as being pretty basic, without having to communicate with a like minded collector in New Zealand or Australia, because no one, including our US suppliers of antique/classic car parts, has it. 
Sadly, along with the propensity of our parts supply to dry up, so does the knowledge base necessary to repair and maintain our old machines. Nor can the lack of interest by our proceeding generation to acquire or maintain these aging vehicles, and their lack of concern that their dads “barn find” antique Packard is neither collectible or will sell in the price range only affordable by royalty. So, it is either rat rodded or trotted off to the crusher for reincarnation as a toaster oven.

The only admonition I can offer to this dilemma is that our fellow antique car buffs stop dying, or the kid is weaned from the lap top, and showed how a manually opened hood works.

Responses and productive disagreements are welcomed.

Jack

 

 

 

[1912Staver]

The beginning of the end was about 20 years ago when younger, middle class hobiests were priced out of all but the very lowest ranks of vintage cars.  From that point mainstream in the hobby became older, financially secure people. They are a finite group, and they are rapidly ageing out. And having missed out when they were younger only a very limited group of people will take up old cars as they become older.

 It didn't help that for the last 40 + years the vast majority of new cars are very grey porrige indeed. " Just picked up this really cool Chevy Citation " or similar front drive / 25 % plastic heap. Hardly the stuff of a old car guy's dreams.

 Once the knowledgeable , middle class , younger and middle age  chain is broken vintage cars just becomes diversion for the rich. 90% of old cars will drop greatly in value over the next 20 years. If you can even sell them at all. We are starting to see this already. The top 10 % of old cars are selling for jaw dropping sums to very wealthy people and the rest more or less struggle to even get 10 years ago's price. { I am talking about cars mid 1960's and older }

Edited September 18 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Maybe we need an annual 40 under 40 recognition of younger folks involved in the hobby.  I know of a few including one now around 34-35 and making a name for himself with a growing business focused mainly on prewar cars and another who is becoming well known with Model A & T mechanical restoration both here in CT.  Another maybe 30, 32 works for Wayne Carini down at F40, having met him racing Model Ts in MA.    There are others.  The current president of MBCA I believe is around 30 give or take.

Those who go into the restoration, repair, parts or even collection management fields should be celebrated as that is our best bet at a viable support network to keep the hobby alive.

Edited September 18 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

[leomara]

The younger generations do not collect anything.  This is the lament I've heard from antique dealers and I fear it is true.  It may be for financial reasons but I really think it's because they have no interest or see any value in anything older than they are.

[TerryB]

My son and his work friends…these are the guys that actually design and build cars for a living.  Having a little fun prepping a car for an event where the car can’t cost more than $500 to buy.  They might not be doing a concours restoration but they are sure having fun.
Way too much generalization about young people which is common in threads like this.

 

 

 

[1912Staver]

Funny thing is that BMW sure would not be $500.00 around here. More like $5000.00 { Canadian } in my neck of the woods. Canadian used car prices have gone through the roof post covid. 70's pick up trucks that before covid were being scrapped left, right and center are now all carying a $5000.00 and up asking price. It's sort of nuts. But then a new truck is $60,000 to $100,000 .

 I am selling a early 90's 5 series at the moment. Several younger people want it but due to the housing situation they are all living in tiny apts. and similar. Rent's are beyond nuts around here , $2000.00 a month for a tiny space and upwards of $3500.00 a month for part of a house or 2 bed townhouse. No wonder young people are shut out of the car hobby. And in one of my BMW photo's in the ad you can see my 1974 Ford F250. I have easily had as many people asking if the truck is for sale as the BMW I am actually selling. 5 years ago I might have sold the truck for $500.00 if I was lucky. These days I am sure I would get $3500.00 + for it.

Edited September 18 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Jack Bennett]

50 minutes ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

Maybe we need an annual 40 under 40 recognition of younger folks involved in the hobby.  I know of a few including one now around 34-35 and making a name for himself with a growing business focused mainly on prewar cars and another who is becoming well known with Model A & T mechanical restoration both here in CT.  Another maybe 30, 32 works for Wayne Carini down at F40, having met him racing Model Ts in MA.    There are others.  The current president of MBCA I believe is around 30 give or take.

Those who go into the restoration, repair, parts or even collection management fields should be celebrated as that is our best bet at a viable support network to keep the hobby alive.

Golly Steve_Mack_CT, I really do appreciate it when someone actually reads, and responds to my verbose, and possibly boring posts.

I personally enjoy seeing a kids eyes light up when the stuff they have been force fed in class, regarding gravity, is appended to a simple process used to supply fuel to an engine. And the evidence it works is supplied when they touch the starter button, yep, on the floor, of my old Dodge, and the engine returns to life. But, I also realize that the kid will hop aboard his electric scooter, or climb aboard his electric bike, and return to the flatscreen world of EFI and EV’s and soon be snuggled up with his iPad or streaming video. 
it tickles me to have a youngster ask about the different sound my sleeve valve engine makes when it idles, and I do take pleasure in the opportunity to explain the difference between a poppet valve engine and one using sleeves instead. But, again I realize that my second of fame will soon pale as the kid slides into the seat of his parents new, totally magnificent pick up truck, and they leave in a cloud of exhausted electrons and depleted atoms.

Jack

[TerryB]

The car has “issues” as you might have guessed.  They had to fab a roll cage as part of the entry requirements and will have to pass a safety check.   It’s sort of a Concours de Lemmons goes to the races event.  Anyway, we have to stop writing off young people as not interested.  They have interests and financial challenges to deal with as many of us did growing up and will find their interests as those challenges are overcome.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Ha Jack, pethaps the kids I am referring to are...  a bit more along the lines of  independent thinkers?  

Getting lawnmower engines to run in Shop class was pretty cool, actually fixing a lot of things can be very satisfying for some.

[Jack Bennett]

59 minutes ago, leomara said:

The younger generations do not collect anything.  This is the lament I've heard from antique dealers and I fear it is true.  It may be for financial reasons but I really think it's because they have no interest or see any value in anything older than they are.

IMO there is no basis for them being interested in anything, and, considering that, wanting to collect it.

My old cars, motor scooter and tractor keeps the link in place which reminds me of a past. 
I know about the Revolutionary and Civil wars, and I also have heroes like Omar Bradley, George S. Patton and Dwight D. Eisenhower. I also know about heroes who directed the evolution of history like Harry S. Truman and Theodore Roosevelt, and while they aren’t my hero, I do not begrudge those who do accept them as such.

So, I cherish and collect memorabilia which adds credibility, and value to my own existence.

I think, as another person who posted to this thread so aptly put it….(my words) have no cars to collect other than…..(quote) “very grey porridge, indeed”.

Jack

[JAK]

Last week my son was here helping me repair a 1907 Stanley, he is just a proficient in steam as I am. 40ish, I have young people who are interested but

know there financial limitations. My son lives in the Baltimore suburbs, hard enough to take care of the necessities without spending extras on an antique car,

Having been raised by me he doesn't see post WWII cars as antique. Please don't tell me my 73 XKE is old! I think the interest is still here, fortunately I live in a rural area of Pennsylvania and in some form young people are interested, as hobbyist we need to be tolerant of there interests. Perhaps not looking for that last penny for a part,

or hording something that could help a young person along, pay it forward. Young people are interested we just need to help them along.

Fire away I've  got broad shoulders.

[alsancle]

There are young people interested in mechanical things.  Just not as many as 50 years ago when just about everyone knew how to change their own oil and mowed their own lawn.

 

Also, you see many guys get involved in the hobby after 50 when the kids are out and some of the financial pressures of raising a family get less.

 

I have a buddy who didn't buy his first car until 5 years ago and just bought his 4th which is a real big boy toy.   He is 55.

[pkhammer]

 I agree with many of the OP's comments and share the same concerns, however, there is some glimmer of hope. My best friend's nephew, 19 years old and a cracker jack welder/fabricator loves antique machinery and is in the process of restoring his Grandfather's 1955 Chevy. Another friend has a Grandson who has loved antique cars and machinery since he was able to talk. He is now in his 20's, became a mechanic, opened his own repair shop and it is quickly morphing into a restoration shop.

  There will always be a chunk of the hobby that will only be accessible to those with the means. That has happened with 60's and 70's muscle cars in the last 30 years. Me and my buddies were driving Big Block Chevelles, Roadrunners and GTOs to high school around 1980 because they were cheap used cars. Now I cannot afford to participate in that segment of the hobby. As some segments of the hobby are reaching new heights in popularity (and cost that goes along with it), there will also be segments that will be declining and more affordable to the average guy. While I believe antique car hobbyists are aging and passing on at a higher rate than younger enthusiasts are entering the hobby, I think there will always be strong interest in antique cars and as @alsancle mentions above, many don't get INTO the hobby until later in life.

[Matt Harwood]

I don't believe that young people are uninterested, but there are many more things competing for their time now. We kind of look down our noses at kids who play video games as if it's unworthy, but it's a hobby like ours. That's but one competitor for the car hobby. When many of us were younger, there were not as many things to do and cars were a more central part of life. Look at how cars were marketed and how they're marketed today. Lifestyle vs. reliable transportation. 

So it isn't young people's fault that they're not doing cars. Cars are a much less central part of life, and therefore the interest level will be different. Add in the fact that hanging out with your buddies at the local burger joint looking for a race isn't really much different than hanging out online looking for a deathmatch in a video game. 

 

How to get them interested? I don't know. My kids aren't really interested although the youngest has some modest interest when it suits him and he's not distracted. They've been raised around cars, have access to cars, but it just doesn't "click" with them the way it does with us. Not everyone was into cars years ago, not everyone will be into cars today.

 

Now, with that said, I agree with Jack that huge amounts of knowledge are lost when older enthusiasts pass away. I don't even know how to quantify what I know or how to pass it along. I let my kids help me and I show them what I'm doing and why, but there's so much information to download that it would be impossible to do it. And to be honest, most of it was earned the hard way. I can't teach someone how not to cross-thread a bolt. I can't teach someone how to tune a carburetor by ear. Those are things you have to learn by doing. If you don't have the urge to "do" then you'll never develop those skills. Fortunately, I think there will always people who "do." They might be fewer, but it will never be zero.

 

The knowledge, while maybe not always passed along, will at least be re-created. Maybe that's good enough.

 

 

Edited September 19 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[hidden_hunter]

Also, have you seen the price of property lately?

 

If I wanted to be able to stay where I live and have room to work on my car would be pushing US$2.5m when 20 years ago it would have been about $300k

 

The other thing I find ironic on parts availability is that people expect to make huge profits on something that ultimately will probably end up going to the scrappers as a result. Like how many people are buying 1922 Cadillac parts and do you really need to make 1000% profit on every nut and bolt if the answer is yes then don’t bemoan it when the hobby dies 

[Dr B]

3 hours ago, TerryB said:

Way too much generalization about young people which is common in threads like this.

I don't know what the cars and coffee are like around you, but we have a TON of young people (20-30 years old) both men and woman every Saturday morning at the one near me.  I would guessitmate several dozen.  I don't care what kind of car they like, I am thrilled they are there (and not necessarily with their parents, although there a quite a few kids (1-12 years old) there with their parents. As noted above, many factors competing for entertainment/hobby time and money. 

 

Robert.  

[Terry Bond]

3 hours ago, leomara said:

The younger generations do not collect anything.  This is the lament I've heard from antique dealers and I fear it is true.  It may be for financial reasons but I really think it's because they have no interest or see any value in anything older than they are.

You're painting with a pretty broad brush. I know several younger enthusiasts who are fascinated with and avidly collect early automobilia. Proud to be a sort of mentor and I look forward to spending time with them at Hershey again thus year.

Terry

[1912Staver]

37 minutes ago, hidden_hunter said:

Also, have you seen the price of property lately?

 

If I wanted to be able to stay where I live and have room to work on my car would be pushing US$2.5m when 20 years ago it would have been about $300k

 

The other thing I find ironic on parts availability is that people expect to make huge profits on something that ultimately will probably end up going to the scrappers as a result. Like how many people are buying 1922 Cadillac parts and do you really need to make 1000% profit on every nut and bolt if the answer is yes then don’t bemoan it when the hobby dies 

Unfortunately here in the Vancouver Canada area we have a property situation much like yours. Prices have truly gone nuts while incomes have for the most part been stagnent for decades. A total decoupling of property prices vs what local people actually earn. And still a huge inflow of cash from outside Canada.  Anyone who was born and works locally and who did not buy something 20 years or so ago has probably missed the home ownership boat.

  Lots and lots of places still selling, but when you see who your new neighbors are it is pretty obvious they are newcomers.  Their kids all seem to drive very high end vehicles. Every day I see several 20 or so year olds that are clearly not from these parts driving cars that cost substantially more than I make in a year.

 Had a interesting conversation with a recently retired real estate agent. { muscle car fan. I may be selling my Cobra Jet } , he said the last decade in the biz made him sick. Blatent money laundering on a good portion of the transactions involving newcomers and high end properties.. All levels of government turning a blind eye.  Hold your nose and collect the taxes.

Edited September 18 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Borough Essex]

I'm always bemused when people my age (I'm in my 60s) go on their computer to lament that young people go on their computer. We are all guilty of it. Now, I'm off to my shed to deal with a fuel pump and derusting some parts; I should have done it an hour ago, but I was wasting time on my computer:) 

[1912Staver]

I am also in my 60's , but I have a son who is 23. Not as much the last few years, but from the time he was 7 or 8 up on to about 19 - 20 he spent a vast amount of time gameing. Quite a bit of computer music creating as well so it wasn't 100 % time down the drain. Finally in his 20's he is living mostly in the real world. But for over 10 years my wife and I were quite concerned. Some of his friends are still very avid gamers. 

[Jack Bennett]

1 hour ago, Borough Essex said:

I'm always bemused when people my age (I'm in my 60s) go on their computer to lament that young people go on their computer. We are all guilty of it. Now, I'm off to my shed to deal with a fuel pump and derusting some parts; I should have done it an hour ago, but I was wasting time on my computer:) 

My take on the hobby of antique car collection and restoration is that the old hupmobile is both a mechanism to keep our minds occupied and our bodies moving. The hobby, may it be antique/classic car, beads, airplanes, gardening, reading, golf…….well, you get the idea, is also a way we can socialize and share a common point of discussion about something other than our money, our bunions, our sorry lives, or the bad boss at work. And, as we age this thirst for company doesn’t lessen, although our ability to quench it may.

I too spend a majority of my waking hours outside doing “stuff”, but I also make sure to leave a bit of time for socializing.

The problem here though is that I have been in one bar room during my entire, 79 year long, life, and have nothing to discuss with a drunk. That leaves a few other options, but age and infirmity has a way of taking those away too. And being a avid car hobbyist may be slightly more challenging for a person who is home bound, or must use a computer from their bed to converse with others who enjoy the hobby.

That much said, I have already said too much, but that has never stopped e me from talking. So I will add how very sweet it is to go on the computer at 10:00 PM, scroll on down to the Amazon or eBay site, and order, and pay for a distributor cap, rotor and new plug wires for a 1951 Plymouth Cambridge, and have them delivered to your doorstep the next morning.

We are paying more than $5.00 a gallon for gas, and just the amount burned during a store to store search for the parts needed to keep the old buggy running makes using the computer a tool of value equal to pulling overtime at work, to buy gas,  instead of working on Lizzie.

Jack

[nick8086]

😋

[Big Beat]

When I was a student, everyone my age I knew that was into old cars was tinkering with cars about 20 years old, cheap used cars at the bottom of their depreciation curve. Guess what, the kids are still doing it. Only in the 1980s, that meant a crappy 1968 Chevelle. Now it's a crappy 1998 Honda Civic. We put on aftermarket wheels and acted stupid, they put on aftermarket mufflers and act equally stupid. That part didn't change at all. We just fail to recognize the similarity behind superficial generational differences. There are definitely fewer young people into cars, though, for a variety of cultural and financial reasons. So fewer former crappy Honda owners will ever graduate to a pre-war classic when they can afford one, versus the former crappy Chevelle owners.  

 

[avgwarhawk]

I'm 58.  I was in my teens when Apple came to being. Microsoft came to being. Atari game consoles hit the market.  I'm still a gamer(simulation games) but with a deeper checkbook for better rigs to play. 

I often think back to the days of finding parts consisted of the junkyard owner screaming repeatedly in his phone that connected to other junkyards in hopes to find a part.  The Internet has changed all of that for the better. 

Concerning the younger crowd not interested in old cars and caring for them, they are. My daughter's boyfriend came to our home for his first visit. My daughter said I should show him my cars.  He dropped an eye tooth when he looked at my 60 Electra.  I asked if he wanted to go for a ride.  He was in the front passenger seat before I could finish my sentence.  Each visit he would ask me a car question because he is interested.  He asked if I could show him how to change the oil in a car. The interest is there. They need someone to show them.  Long gone are HS shop, wood working and mechanical drawing classes.  They don't exist and that is a shame. 

[8E45E]

1 hour ago, avgwarhawk said:

Concerning the younger crowd not interested in old cars and caring for them, they are. My daughter's boyfriend came to our home for his first visit. My daughter said I should show him my cars.  He dropped an eye tooth when he looked at my 60 Electra.  I asked if he wanted to go for a ride.  He was in the front passenger seat before I could finish my sentence.  Each visit he would ask me a car question because he is interested.  He asked if I could show him how to change the oil in a car. The interest is there. They need someone to show them.  Long gone are HS shop, wood working and mechanical drawing classes.  They don't exist and that is a shame. 

Hopefully you'll be the 'cool father-in-law' who will keep the hobby alive for the new generation.  

 

Craig

[jp1gt]

I think the cost is a big factor. First car was a 65 mustang fastback. 5 hundred bucks but I was making  a dollar an hour. Back then you could go to the junk yard and pick up things like a hurst shifter, wheels etc. Can't do that anymore--

[JV Puleo]

I think several things are simultaneously going on here and that any one of us can only judge them by our own experience. My experience has been quite different than that of most of the folks here so I have a different view of the situation... I think:

 

1. 1912Staver makes a very good point regarding costs although I think it pertains more to the cost of the cars and materials than it does to present-day living costs. The rising prices (as opposed to values) of antique cars have effectively driven out everyone with a middle-class income unless they are prepared to make sacrifices that cannot be reasonably expected from any more than a handful of enthusiasts. Those prices, which have delighted so many older collectors, were a poison pill for collecting.

 

2. The notion that "everyone" was part of the car culture 50 years ago does not accord with my experience at all. In fact, almost no one I knew gave a damn about cars or worked on them. With the exception of 2 HS friends (brothers, who are still friends) we were the only people close to our age I ever met that were interested. When I was in my 20s, joining a local club, the "old timers" (who were mostly in their late 50s or 60s then) were very cool if not hostile to a younger member. There were exceptions and you could always ignore the grumps but I have never formed a good impression of clubs as a result.

 

3. All the good service providers are dying off. To some extent this is true, at least in the conventional sense. You can't go down to the local automotive machine shop and get an engine job done on a flat head Ford like you once could and the lack of demand for their services means fewer people will enter those trades. But, it will attract specialists who will almost certainly want better prices but will be able to provide specialized insight that the local guy may never have offered. There will also be enthusiasts who have never worked in the automotive trade. I'm one and on this forum we have several others, including Luv2Wrench with his 1913 Metz.

 

4. The rising costs of cosmetic restoration dictate taking a serious look at the disproportionate emphasis placed on this aspect. American collecting has always been dominated by the "look at me" crowd but the fact is that if you are seeking attention from the general public, who can't tell the difference between a $50,000 paint job and Earl Scheib, it will make little difference. Ultra paint jobs will be out there but they will be unaffordable to middle-class collectors unless they do them themselves and that, in its own right, implies a bit more flexibility in the judgements people make.

 

5. I've been collecting since I was 12 years old...mostly 18th and early 19th century arms. These were ALL items for which there were no living people who had used them or even remembered them in use. The notion that collecting is driven by what people remember is valid but very short sighted. Good stuff will always attract interest...but likely some things, for which interest is only a passing fad, will fade. This has always been the case and will continue to be so.

Edited Friday at 02:09 PM by JV Puleo
tense (see edit history)

[Str8-8-Dave]

There was a recent post about Maclellan Blair's passing.  He was known for his 32 Buick Registry and had a huge collection of 32 Buicks that were mostly parts cars, stacks of engines and other large driveline pieces that are now left for his successors to get rid of somehow.  I don't have nearly as much stuff for the 31 Buick I still own but I'm at the age where I don't want to leave a complicated mess for my successors to have to deal with when I go over.  Much of it is not worth saving, rusted out, not serviceable, etc. so some is headed for the Tin Man to be sold for scrap.   

[metalbender]

my grandson liked to see my cars when visiting.   i knew he liked to wrench and i would buy him some tools for christmas etc.

he had never driven an older car, so i asked him if he would like to give it a go. a little reluctant but said ok. afraid he might hurt it.

that was my jag XK-120 and after a few surges of the clutch, he did fine.  he was beaming from ear to ear.

well on the next visit this spring, i asked him if he would like to drive the '46 MG TC. yes sir was the answer.  again after a couple

of clutch hops, he did fine and again the ear to ear smiles.  he did so well i asked him if he would like to drive the '27 rolls-royce.

again very reluctant but would try,  after a few pointers, he did fine and loved every minute of it.  a future in old cars has

been ingrained and is now in aircraft mechanics school.

[Jack Bennett]

2 hours ago, Str8-8-Dave said:

There was a recent post about Maclellan Blair's passing.  He was known for his 32 Buick Registry and had a huge collection of 32 Buicks that were mostly parts cars, stacks of engines and other large driveline pieces that are now left for his successors to get rid of somehow.  I don't have nearly as much stuff for the 31 Buick I still own but I'm at the age where I don't want to leave a complicated mess for my successors to have to deal with when I go over.  Much of it is not worth saving, rusted out, not serviceable, etc. so some is headed for the Tin Man to be sold for scrap.   

Hi Dave. When my wife passed, my life became like an apple with the core removed. I needed something to fill the void of not having her around after over half a century of marriage. I wanted to do something that I could do alone, use my my time productively, and do it without burdening others with my troubled mind. So I bought my first old car, began stripping it down, and renewing it back to operation. The second car followed the third car followed. and the rest is history. However, I treat this as a hobby. not a vocation. With the passing of my wife, I have no  immediate family left to pass my inheritance on to. I do have a grandson, but he has became a wild hair and has no interest in my old cars. 

As sad as this may sound, it actually allows me to do what I want with my estate when I no longer have need for it. I would never want my possessions, in this case, my cars, to be passed to someone who would just junk or sell them. And it bothers me to think they would become a burden for someone to keep who really could not appreciate their true value.

I am concerned with the health and welfare of our young people, and for this reason I would never expect that giving them a car they could not/would not ever drive, and would cost money they needed for other things simply for its maintenance, would be beneficial to their welfare.

Instead I have included in my final directive that my cars will be passed to St. Jude to be auctioned off, and the return from their sale be used for childhood cancer research. Of course, the charity has brokers who do the actual selling of the vehicles meaning that I am not directly involving them in the process of disposing of the cars. But, in this way I can be relatively well assured the cars are passed to someone who may appreciate, and can afford to maintain them, and still pass on their monetary value to a chosen charity. 
Jack

 

Edited September 19 by Jack Bennett (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

If all I left behind was a few stories remembered and my bones. The calcium would make some pretty good fertilizer. And the whole event might be more seamless than anyone expected.

[Jack Bennett]

I have owned, and lived in the same house for over 40 years. Accordingly, I have seen the surrounding community go from single family houses and rolling lakeside estates to yard less duplexes and expansive apartment complexes. I have also seen the culture change from one where dad came home from work, parked in a driveway, went inside the single family home to eat a home cooked meal, and return to the yard for some tag football with the kids. Now it is a single person who hastily parks their deeply financed car in the carport slot assigned to their apartment, rushes inside to call door-dash or Domino’s delivery for a quick fix of fast food, slips into something comfy and, using a remote control, clicks on the telly or the iPad for some evening entertainment before bed.

And this thread is not about them.

It is about learning that the lower gasket of a Skinner vacuum tank is as important as the upper gasket, and a single loose screw can defeat every speck of gravity in the universe so far as fuel delivery is concerned.

It is about things that click, buzz, hum, and break.

It is about those who know Newtons Law, as it applies to what makes our old machines continue to run after a hundred years, also knows that it applies to their minds and bodies, and is elemental to a satisfying life.

And it is about the people, regardless of age, which realizes that life is as fragile and transitory as the point of a needle valve in a old gravity fed carburetor.

And, it is about a culture which is taking a essential part of everything I’ve said above to the grave with them.

It is about the understanding that a distributor relies on two totally different devices to control a engine’s spark advance, and regulate its ability to operate as efficiently under load, and at lower RPM, as it does with minimal load at high speed. This allusion to a mechanical device is my attempt to show it doesn’t take a PHD to understand the criticality of a diverse back up system to regulate our own metabolism. And, with the passing of every person familiar with a conventional ignition system, as compared to one who relies on a EPROM reading and HEI for the health of their machine, so passes the knowledge that we need diverse, and dissimilar sources of how we govern our own lives.

And these folks will be direly missed because they are the only living examples of first hand knowledge that, sometime, clicking, clunking, humming, buzzing, whistling, squealing, banging and breaking are highly preferable to that monotonous whirring sound a petulant, and demanding cell phone makes as it demands your attention.

Jack

[Xander Wildeisen]

I agree and disagree with some of the statements made. I think interest in cars is bigger than it has ever been. Attendance and membership in automotive groups and events would prove it. Magazine’s, small car clubs and burger joint cars shows have all taken a hit. The restoration side of the hobby/industry/trade has always been smaller than the custom, street rod, hot rod, rat rod, off road, racing and other sub  sectors of the aftermarket industry. The type writer, VHS, cassette, fax machine and the covered wagon have all gone by by. I love classic era cars, it is just financial suicide to restore them. The dealer side to these types of cars probably does better then the restoration side. As others have stated, you have to have disposable income to dive into those projects, even doing most of the work yourself. I have made lots of comments on here over the years about what is going on in states like Idaho. And nobody wants to touch it, or hear about it. Maybe some of the diminishing interest in vintage cars, could have something to do with the treatment of people, businesses and customers. You can’t talk about all the beautiful things this hobby brings. And not addressing  the negative things that exists with in your industry. Will drag down the good.

[Jack Bennett]

21 hours ago, TerryB said:

Way too much generalization about young people which is common in threads like this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Harruuuummmmmmpppppp…….Poppycock.

The thread is about losing the first hand knowledge, and sentimental attachment, to the restoration of antique machinery being lost as the older participants in the hobby die.

It is about the association of a many part, gravity fed fuel system with getting out of bed, making it up before leaving the house, eating a breakfast which sustains the mind, but doesn’t encourage lethargy, brushing your teeth, combing your hair, checking the appropriateness of your dress, locking the door and……….as that little drop of gas arrives at the anxiously awaiting spark plug explodes into a flurry of energy…….so the person arrives to work another day.

For whatever reason, this is easily comparable to working on the simplistic engine of my 1923 Dodge Brothers Roadster. But, it is beyond me as to how it can relate to plugging a EPROM reader into a under dash plug, obtaining a digital read out, and retrieving the necessary wrench and part to replace a defective oxygen sensor.

The youth of today are products of an environment handed to them by well wishing adults. What they do to survive in this environment is what dictates the culture of tomorrow, and that I can’t change.

But I can lament that the culture fostered by my grandpa and his grandpa is like water passing under a bridge…..and once gone it will never be recalled to memory again.

Nothing to do with 2023 Junior or Sissy……..they will follow whatever path is laid for them by the current stable of adults in control.

Jack

[60FlatTop]

I will never forget the day my wife told me "Men tend to generalize".

 

I read stuff like this and my mind wanders. I imagine that young student in the 1950s being patted on the head and told they would become the lotus blossoms of knowledge in another 60-70 years.

 

Of course, when I was in High School I had an article published in the school paper. One of the English teachers held the paper up to his class folded to my writing. He asked "Has anyone read this?" Then tore the paper and threw it in the trash. Those impressionable youths whom saw it, and I. Serious matters.

 

Don't take all this change and hobby prolongation too seriously. Seriousness breeds expectations. And expectations are hard to meet. Old men get real nasty about unmet expectations.

 

My garage is full of my toys. They are not to be imposed on the youth.

[Jack Bennett]

37 minutes ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

I agree and disagree with some of the statements made. I think interest in cars is bigger than it has ever been. Attendance and membership in automotive groups and events would prove it. Magazine’s, small car clubs and burger joint cars shows have all taken a hit. The restoration side of the hobby/industry/trade has always been smaller than the custom, street rod, hot rod, rat rod, off road, racing and other sub  sectors of the aftermarket industry. Maybe some of the diminishing interest in vintage cars, could have something to do with the treatment of people, businesses and customers. You can’t talk about all the beautiful things this hobby brings. And not addressing  the negative things that exists with in your industry. Will drag down the good.

Along with old machines, I have a few other hobby’s which are more “alt” than “first”. Among them are metal detecting, history and genealogy.

Our area is rich in 1800’s era history, and the metal detecting and genealogy compliments my finding in both.

We have a pass named “Snoqualmi” here in Washington State, and it provided a way for west bound settlers to navigate the mountain range between Idaho and Washington State. Remember that these people are anticipating completion of a task which entailed moving all their worldly goods, in a creaky Conestoga wagon, dragged all the way from a home in Pennsylvania.

I have metal detected this pass for the past 40 years, and I have never tired of the finds it produces. Albeit, there is a shortage of gold, silver, baubles and jewelry, but there is a wealth of broken and abandoned wagon parts.

If privileged to stand on the brink of the final long, and steep grade they had to descend prior to hitting the lush and fertile Puyallup River Valley, one can’t help but notice the grooves worn into the rock as the steel wheels of the wagons passed over it. Nor does the sheer drop and length of the slope they had to descend escape the eye of an interested viewer. Recorded history depicts the settlers, in a last minute rush of inspiration and energy hooking the logs hewn from huge trees, and using them as drag anchors to hold their wagons in check as they were winched down the hill.

By George, this is a forum devoted to antique car restoration and collection, and metal detecting, genealogy and history has no part in its continued existence.

That is, if I could admire my handiwork in its upholstery, liked the smell of the pixels emitted from its exhaust or could take a nice ride, with the windshield open and top down, as the sun set on the horizon.

But, as you have said, the forum uses the good things I have mentioned above to elicit a conversation, not a fuel pump replacement, and what we talk about is determined as being “good” or “bad” by those contributing to the conversation. 
My old cars are a mechanism which allows me the opportunity to have a identification without citing rules, regulations, and accomplishments which lended to my own ego, and, consequently, attempted to deflate yours.

[avgwarhawk]

8 hours ago, 8E45E said:

Hopefully you'll be the 'cool father-in-law' who will keep the hobby alive for the new generation.  

 

Craig

It appears to be moving in that direction.

[avgwarhawk]

I would like to add that "Will it Start" videos on YouTube are not only numerous but 99% are young guys with kids. Derek and his Vice Grip Garage not only posted videos of a truck from the 30s he got running but two Buicks.  A T Type and a Grand National.  The T Type is one hell of a find.  View the video if you can.  His young son is there to help Derek and has his sights set in a old pick up in Derek's yard of vehicles.  

 

I subscribe to many YouTubers.  Old car will it start  videos to Diesel Creek where the young fella rescues old construction equipment.  There are a plethora of young guys tinkering with old cars.  The interest is alive and well. 

[kfle]

Well, I can't refrain from jumping in any longer as this continues to come up across many posts.  I agree that with every passing of someone we lose a lot of knowledge, but I don't agree that the younger generation has no interest in cars or doesnt collect.  There is a lot of interest in cars, but what the younger generation does not have an interest in is the way our traditional car clubs and events operate as they dont seem to like being judged, bureaucracy in meetings, and being looked down on by older people.  So what most people in these clubs who only see their traditional event see is a drop of younger people participating.  Essentially it is a big echo chamber!

 

I offer three recent things that I have witnessed:

 

1. At the Old Car Festival which is all pre 1932 cars, I saw the largest participation by young people that I have seen in my 8 years of attending the event.  These are some pictures that I found on Facebook from this years event and there are more.

 

2. At Old Car festival there was a Millennial aged You Tuber that has 30,000 subscribers finding interesting cars to do videos on. One of the cars that he did a filming video on was my 1917 Cole and here is the video.  Again, the younger generation has a different way of doing things but they are preserving knowledge and history in a different way than club archives and libraries.  Here is the video that he released and look at the views and comments.  

 

 

3. The young people are doing meet ups through social media and while it is mostly on newer cars, tuners, etc., they are getting into cars and wrenching on them.  I have talked to several in Florida and when exposed to older stuff I hear a lot of I would like to get into that someday, which is the natural progression of cars.  Here is an example of one of these and I guarantee that they get way more cars than the typical local car club/show events that we typically take part in.  

 

So lets not make generalizations about younger people and cars, things are just different!

[1912Staver]

I am 65 and have been interested in vintage cars as far back as I can remember. And those things you mention, bureaucracy, judging , and being looked down upon { except in my case it was more wealthy owners looking down on my friends and I because we had rag tag survivors rather than the polished to the Nth degree garage queens they all had } rather than age. This sort of thing was a big turn off with some of the local clubs 40 years or more ago. Hardly a new phenomenon.

 I admit the whole social media thing means little to nothing to me. And don't see that changing anytime soon.

I have been using marketplace lately to sell off part of my old car fleet { moving will do that, otherwise most of it would have remained in my posession until I died }, but I am astonished by  the large number of extremely rude and downright stupid responses my ads have attracted. { I have also sold over 20 cars, trucks , projects, and tractors over the last 6 months, some on Craigslist , but most on marketplace }. If this is as a substantial part of social media as the last six months have indicated once the move / sell off is over I doubt I will ever use marketplace / social media again, for selling at least.

 Guess I am just a out of touch , thin skinned old guy . But the amount of abuse and insult that seems to be part of marketplace and social media is a huge turn off. The ability to communcate anonymously just seems to bring out the worst in some people. And I have to say 90 % of the actual buyers as opposed to the lookey loo's are closer to my age, some even older. Lots of younger people have come by for a look, but only one was actually a serious buyer { same guy bought 4 cars from me }. All the others had one excuse or another why my exactly as advertised, decent value for the money offerings just were not a good fit for their circumstances. Gee wiz, I would have thought they would have taken all that into account before they decided to waste my time.

 

 

Edited September 20 by 1912Staver (see edit history)