R 12 AC Machine??

[Zimm63]

Not sure this is the right category, but its a start.

 

My 63 Riviera runs R12 and I would prefer to keep it that way.  At various times, I see R12 service equipment for sale at reasonable prices.  The last couple I have been interested in were Snap On and, upon checking, had no parts or service availability.  So, if the machine stops working, thats the end of that.  

 

My question to the learned group is:  Are there any vendors out there supporting R12 machines at all?   At a minimum, there is a need to properly evacuate the system without releasing freon into the air.  

 

 

[rocketraider]

Good point on inability to source parts if it quits. I've noticed Snap-on is getting bad about not supporting some of their older tools. A recent example for myself is trying to rebuild a Blue Point 3/8 impact. Secondary market or nothing. Snap-on does not support parts.

 

I'm leery of used refrigerant recovery units because, unless it comes with meticulous records, there's no telling what refrigerants it may have been contaminated with. I remember all that uproar over 12 and all the "substitutes" that were put in 12 systems to avoid the expense of converting to 134a.

 

If a machine was used to evacuate a 12 system, and that system had had "substitutes" put in, all that crap was now in the recovery unit and would cross-contaminate every system it was connected to from then on.

 

I've also had doubts about the whole ozone hole thing, because I learned long ago not to trust agenda-driven science especially when some corporate entity was also trying to push acceptance of their new product.

 

But I completely understand wanting to recover and reuse your expensive R12.

 

**

 

I wish E P A would stop monkeying with refrigerants. I have a $1500 repair invoice on my desk for repair of my home A/C. System is 3 years old and in three years has had the entire outside unit replaced once at a year old, and this year the condenser coil and reversing valve have been replaced (two years old). The ultimate culprit? The insane operating pressures of the refrigerant the E P A now requires all newer units to use.

 

At least the parts were covered under warranty.

[37_Roadmaster_C]

To answer your question,  Yes.  The issue is NOT R-12. The issue is simply old equipment that has aged out. To comment on @rocketraidercomments about cross contamination.  If used properly there is NONE! The refrigerant does not stay in the recovery unit, it stays in the recovery tanks. If using the recovery unit on different refrigerants, you need different tanks for each refrigerant AND you need to flush the unit itself with proper solvents before each use. If you do not know the refrigerant then you need to use a tank for "Unknowns" so it can be disposed of properly and NOT reused. If you were in the business there are sample machines that will tell you what is in the sample so you know, even if it is a mixture of several refrigerants.

Bottom line, buy old and pray $ or buy newer and have support $$$.

[old car fan]

We have a nice one, Not mine, but for  sale. 

[gossp]

For the record, there is nothing about recovery equipment that makes it refrigerant specific other than perhaps marketing for its original application or a sticker. Recovery machines set up for auto shops often specify a refrigerant but that was just to get shops to buy a dedicated machine. Right before 134 came around recovery machines started getting stickers that said they were for 12… then the 134 machines came out. 
 

if wanting to keep a vehicle running the original refrigerant, which I highly recommend doing (converting has a high failure rate), source yourself a jug of r12 and when work is needed have a refrigeration or appliance repair guy help you. They will be more qualified than an auto tech. With the cost of r12, having someone that knows what they are doing run a pressure test with dry nitrogen and a decay test under vacuum will pay for itself over losing $500-1000 worth of refrigerant. 
 

[Frank DuVal]

7 hours ago, 37_Roadmaster_C said:

The refrigerant does not stay in the recovery unit, it stays in the recovery tanks. If using the recovery unit on different refrigerants, you need different tanks for each refrigerant AND you need to flush the unit itself with proper solvents before each use.

In the case of my Snap-On R-12 machine it is not that easy, as the same tank is used for recovery and replenishment, as Snap-On designed it. Yes, you could reach up inside the machine and remove the tank and then put in a scrap recovery tank for disposal later, then put in a tank of R-12 for the machine to run its cycle of refilling.  Back in the day I used a refrigerant identifier before I recovered refrigerant from a vehicle. Now the systems on old cars I buy are empty anyway!

 

I too do not look forward to when the machine quits working and it is some proprietary IC on a board that craps out.😡 I too have had issues repairing Snap-On tools after they are 10 years old. This is also why I refuse to buy their battery operated tools anymore. I also had issues getting the parts for pneumatics.

[m-mman]

The car: 1966 Mercury Park Lane convertible. I did a full mechanical rebuild, paint and chrome.  I wanted a reliable tour car. It has factory A/C so I figured I should get it working.  This is what I learned.

 

 

Got an old 60s-70s A/C system that you want to function? "Just needs freon" ain't going to cut it.  It is called an A/C SYSTEM. It is 30, 40, maybe 60 years old. You would never open up a 50-60 year old engine and replace just one part. You rebuild-replace everything. Air Conditioning systems are no different.   This means: New/rebuilt compressor, new rubber hoses, blow out/flush out the condenser & evaporator, new/rebuilt expansion valve, new/rebuilt receiver dryer. Opening the system means that you are also replacing all the O-rings copper washers etc. And because you replaced the compressor, you are installing new oil. 

 

Rant: Gee whiz, why don't people routinely fix the A/C on a car they have for sale? ("Just needs a recharge") 

It is because fixing an A/C system is going to be at least $1000 in parts!

How about this? You buy the car and if you want a working A/C, then YOU fix the A/C!

 

OK, you have now replaced everything and it is time to recharge the system. 

You asked about a R12 "machine" but didn't specify what you were asking about.  There are two types of machines. 

"Recovery machines" and evacuation pumps. 

 

On industrial or building A/C systems you might find a FILLED system with a blown compressor or other serious damage. It is still filled with refrigerant. You cannot legally let the refrigerant escape into the environment. You need to remove AND RECOVER the (contaminated?) refrigerant, repair the system and reinstall refrigerant. Simple.  But this is not how cars work. 

 

Certainly possible to have a damaged car A/C system that still has a charge but I would not count on it. 99.99% of the time no "recovery" is necessary on a car because whatever damage it suffered caused/allowed the refrigerant to leak out. Yes discharge of refrigerant into the environment in not supposed to happen. But it did, and it did so long before you got the car. 99.99% of the time the automotive system is going to be empty. ("All it needs is a recharge") 

 

At one time they made automotive recovery machines. I bought this one from Craigslist. I never got it to work.  No instructions, something not working, it became a $200 shop decoration. 

 

 

Automotive A/C recharge after repair:  

1. Check for leaks - Just like a tire, fill the A/C system with compressed air and use a soap solution on the connections and look for bubbles. (pressure gauges confirm leak free systems too)  BUT compressed air has moisture and will contaminate your new dryer. So, charge the system with Nitrogen. (compressed, pure gas, no moisture)  This needs a Nitrogen tank and associated gauges, etc. 

 

2. No leaks? Evacuate the system. This vacuum pump sucks all the air out (makes room for refrigerant) AND since you suck it down for about an hour it also sucks all the moisture out of the dryer.  After it has been evacuated you install your refrigerant. 

 

Opps! that expansion valve you put in doesn't work. (no cooling and bad readings on the pressure gauges) BUT you have already filled the system with refrigerant and you cant let it escape into the atmosphere! So you buy this; A refrigerant recovery machine and a spare refrigerant tank. Suck out your R12 (or R134) and pump it into your tank.  (which actually "stores" the clean refrigerant) After the repair you can then potentially use the recovered clean refrigerant to reinstall in the system or use new stuff from the can and use the "recovered" stuff for a recharge later. 

 

 

The evacuation and recovery machines and the extra tank I purchased on Amazon. Cheap enough to meet my needs.

Probably spent less than the Craigslist old machine. 

 

Did it work on the Mercury? YES! 

After repair (I filled it with R12) I got a 32 degree outlet temperature (Ok, it was winter) but the real joyful surprise was yesterday. I pulled  it out of 12 to 18 months storage, drove it around and on a 90 degree day I was getting 47 degree outlet temperatures <hooray!> 

18 months of sitting and it doesn't seem to "Just need a recharge"  

 

Want an excellent book to learn the whole process? 

This:  https://www.amazon.com/Just-Needs-Recharge-Mechanic-Conditioning/dp/0998950718/ref=asc_df_0998950718/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312031082787&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=7883688271088039577&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031226&hvtargid=pla-491995004540&psc=1  

 

[Frank DuVal]

4 hours ago, m-mman said:

At one time they made automotive recovery machines.

Still do.  For R-134a and R-1234yF.

 

https://www.robinair.com/products/category/ac-recovery-and-recycling-405

[James Peck]

Back in 97 I converted an 83 El Camino to R134-a. It was not quite as cold as R12.  On the other side of the border, R12 was still being sold. R12 was a commonly smuggled item. You could just drive across and have R12 put into your car,

If I remember, R134a cycles to a higher pressure. 

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by James Peck (see edit history)