Auto Upholstery Shops, a thing of the past?

[trimacar]

I can tell you from experience, kits are great, but have their limitations.

 

1965/66 Mustangs, man, kit looks easy, but if you don’t know the tricks, a pain, same with 1955-57 Thunderbirds.  Been there.

 

Even the LB kits needed adjusting to be nice, but they were nice…

[60FlatTop]

I have experiences with the limitations of pretty much everyone I have hired to do work for me. Most of the time my expectations are so low I end up just buying the materials and tools I don't have.

 

Some of the best craftsmen I know have given me a base to judge my own capabilities from.

 

Even my wife who has taken to starting her sentences with "So" has said "So, you think you know more than the doctor". I calmly tell her  "I didn't say that. But if we were going to school together I would have higher grades."

[TTR]

53 minutes ago, rocketraider said:

You're right. I have absolutely less than zero experience in car restoration. The four Oldsmobiles got their 950+ out of 1000 points OCA awards with zero input, research or hands on work and effort by me.

 

I'm starting to think that, even as an AACA Life Member and tireless promoter of the group to new old car owners, I am no longer a good fit. Not snobbish enough...

I hear/read you, but your earlier comment made it seem like you believe/think that just about anyone with a sewing machine and scissors can do great upholstery restoration, which I don’t believe to be true and based on some comments from others, I may not be only one. 

 

While I’m not a “Life Member” of any organization (but have been some for over 30 years), in past 45 years I’ve personally restored dozens of cars and have a fairly extensive hands-on experience with all aspects of it and while many of my restorations have received high accolades at local, regional and national shows, many others have never been shown in public, mainly because their owners don’t care about or need any peer approval.

OTOH, having been involved in judging, both as a judge and presenter, I don’t put much weight on point scores, kind of like how many times has “edinmass”, for example, noted needing to had spend numerous hours, etc to correct/fix freshly/fully restored cars that had “recently” won high praises at Pebble Beach, etc (& yes, I’ve had to deal many similar cases also).
Just because car has been invited to or won at Pebble, etc, doesn’t always mean it’s done correctly.

 

As I mentioned before, it’s all about personal expectations, but let’s try not to lump everyone/everything being equal in all restorations.

 

[junkyardjeff]

There used to be a few shops near me but have been slowly going away and one more upholsterer has quit the retail part of the trade and that was me,started working in a private car collection and loving every minute of it.    For once I work in a air conditioned building and do not have to deal with people wanting trashed cars fixed for little money.

[Dennis Hagen]

I purchased my soft vinyl interior (seats and door panels) from Auto Crafters that were on the same street as Lebaron Bonny and was bought by Lebaron I was very happy with the kit. Unfortunately they are gone.

[Dave Mellor NJ]

Lebaron Bonney had also absorbed ABC Auto, a reupholsterer of fifties Ford interiors. I can't imagine where those customers would go.

[marcapra]

I found the name and number of a retired upholstery man, Don Geisen, who has done antique cars, but I haven't talked to him since 2021.  I may go with him if he's still willing to do the job.  I have a business coupe so it only has one seat.  The seat was reupholstered, as well as the rest of the car before I bought it in 1980, but not in original materials.  I removed the headliner and door panels, but the seat is still in good shape.  So if the price seems outrageous, I could forgo the seat and just have the headliner and door panels done for now.  Don referred me to an upholstery wholesaler in Long Beach who had things like the premade headliner for my car.  I said I have a three window coupe, and they said "Is that with the four bows?"  So they seemed to know what I was talking about.  But I would have to have Don purchase it, as they don't sell to the public.  Some 40 years ago a friend of mine bought a 47 DeSoto just like mine that still had the original upholstery.  I took some pics of it showing the broadcloth used on the seat, the seat back, and the front of the seat.  Might be valuble to the upholsterer.  

Edited July 17, 2023 by marcapra (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

Once again the old adage "You get what you pay for" rings true.  Do a restoration or an interior or rebuild  an engine and carefully keep track of all your time.  Then  multiply that time by an hourly rate that would cover your overhead, your employee costs, your insurance and a modest salary for yourself.  Your eyes will be opened.

[TAKerry]

13 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

I assume the TA guys can give you good feedback on which kit is the best?    20 years ago I used a kit for one of my mustangs and it came out great.  I did have a professional upholstery guy do the installation though.

Legendary makes a near perfect interior for Trans Ams. There is another brand for the budget minded but side by side there is a big difference. The Tenth Anniversary car is the only second gen to have leather seats (at least the inserts) and therefore the most expensive to buy and restore (along with the 2 succeeding pace cars 80,81). I often stated that this would be the last of these cars I would want to restore just for that reason and here I am doing one! The other problem is the carpet was special and no longer produced by anyone. Installation is fairly straightforward. The door panels are clip in place, the seats are a bit tricky but not overly complicated. I did the rear in my 77 and it turned out fine. Farmed the fronts out because I ran out of spare time. I will try to do everything myself this time around. When I had my '57 190 SL I put the new convertible top on. First time I did something even remotely close like that (other than carpet and linoleum-remember that stuff?- installations, which are similar in technique). The top came out perfect.

[TAKerry]

13 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

I assume the TA guys can give you good feedback on which kit is the best?    20 years ago I used a kit for one of my mustangs and it came out great.  I did have a professional upholstery guy do the installation though.

Legendary makes a near perfect interior for Trans Ams. There is another brand for the budget minded but side by side there is a big difference. The Tenth Anniversary car is the only second gen to have leather seats (at least the inserts) and therefore the most expensive to buy and restore (along with the 2 succeeding pace cars 80,81). I often stated that this would be the last of these cars I would want to restore just for that reason and here I am doing one! The other problem is the carpet was special and no longer produced by anyone. Installation is fairly straightforward. The door panels are clip in place, the seats are a bit tricky but not overly complicated. I did the rear in my 77 and it turned out fine. Farmed the fronts out because I ran out of spare time. I will try to do everything myself this time around. When I had my '57 190 SL I put the new convertible top on. First time I did something even remotely close like that (other than carpet and linoleum-remember that stuff?- installations, which are similar in technique). The top came out perfect.

[alsancle]

57 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

Once again the old adage "You get what you pay for" rings true.  Do a restoration or an interior or rebuild  an engine and carefully keep track of all your time.  Then  multiply that time by an hourly rate that would cover your overhead, your employee costs, your insurance and a modest salary for yourself.  Your eyes will be opened.

 

I think it is better for the hobby if we keep our eyes shut.  

[MarkV]

Lots of shops where I’m at I shopped around for my 82 imperial I think I paid $2200 for everything seats, headliner, visors and materials they duplicated all original patterns 

[chistech]

When people think things cost too much. The complete interior kit, roof kit, and roof boot cost me right around $5000 back in 2019 for my ‘32 Olds DCR. Yes, there is a leather seat involved but it’s only a two seat car right? I also got a discount because I was a recommended installer. While it was a lot of money at the time, I’m damn glad I was able to get everything before they closed their doors. I wonder how many others would be ecstatic today if they could get a kit from LB for their cars at an even higher price. Don’t forget the old general rule of thumb for any labor which was twice or three times the material cost! Now what is that interior going to cost. Complain about your $10,000 interior but brag about your $20,000 paint job! Our cars are a hobby like owning a boat, golfing, camping, etc. The only thing you get as a return on your investment is enjoyment. If you want to be in the hobby, it’s going to cost you like any other hobby does. 

Edited July 17, 2023 by chistech (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

I never used to care about my interiors very much. Most of the cars I've had in the past were just OK with incorrect materials or patterns or just plain worn. I didn't usually care.

Then I owned a few cars with nice, correct interiors. What a difference! I'm not going back.

 

Remember that you spend all your time inside the car, touching the interior, living in it. It has gone from being an afterthought to a priority for me. Whatever it costs, it's worth it as far as I'm concerned. Having a beautiful, correct, comfortable, durable, functional interior transforms the car as much as having a reliable, powerful engine.

 

I understand budgets, but this isn't a budget hobby, not anymore. The only thing that I can say for certain is that quality work is always worth the price and you will enjoy the car that much more. Trying to make anything we do here into a logical economic argument is futile. Yes, it stings to write that big check but once it's over and you're left with quality, you will never look back with regret.

[60FlatTop]

1 hour ago, TAKerry said:

There is another brand for the budget minded

THAT is going to be repeated! I love it. And I know just the tone of voice that would make my old friend Mike blow coffee out his nose when I said it.

 

I have been reading this topic and being entertained with memories of growing up working with my grandfather. Between Grandpa Jerry and High School Business class teacher, Tom Burns, I developed quite a perception of business values.

 

Honestly, I wouldn't drop my car off with a person like me for any work to be done.

[Durant Mike]

The car I'm working on now and near completion is my 1971 Triumph TR6. I sprung for the leather interior from England which was costly and decided not to tackle the interior, particularly the rebuilding the seats. Did not want to make a mistake and damage the leather in any way.  The shop where I have it replaced the dash pieces, door cards and back leather pieces but decided too to farm out the seat rebuilding and installation of my leather seats.  Just for the seats it came to $2,000. I was shocked for sure.  I expected around maybe $500 a seat with the labor costs but $2,000 I thought was much too high. It's done now and does look fantastic but even for that little car, a new rag top is around $800 and who knows what installation would be. I might tackle that myself. I'm worried when I get to the interior stage for my 1928 Durant that I will not be able to get the material or find someone to do the work that will no make me get a mortgage on the house!

 

[Restorer32]

Maybe 15 years ago there was a fellow at the Annual Meeting discussing the restoration of his '32 Packard 12 Conv.  

He had the interior, top and sidemount covers upholstered by a well known shop in Ohio that has done several Pebble cars.  He said the work is perfect but cost him almost $50 grand.  As always, the nicer the nice the higher the price.

[Matt Harwood]

20 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

Maybe 15 years ago there was a fellow at the Annual Meeting discussing the restoration of his '32 Packard 12 Conv.  

He had the interior, top and sidemount covers upholstered by a well known shop in Ohio that has done several Pebble cars.  He said the work is perfect but cost him almost $50 grand.  As always, the nicer the nice the higher the price.

I know the shop you're talking about. They charged one of my clients $12,000 for just a set of carpets in a '37 Packard Twelve convertible victoria. He paid it and the car is spectacular.

[trimacar]

The perfect just costs a lot more, that's all.  There's a well known early car trimmer, now mostly retired I believe, who charged outrageous prices.  

 

However, I could always walk up to an early car being shown and immediately think "hmm, I know who did this job".

 

For example, I was discussing an early large touring car with a gentleman, he asked for a rough estimate on a rear seat and door panels.  I gave him a nice round number, well under the $30K he'd been quoted by this individual.  Didn't matter, he got discouraged and sold the car.

 

But, one gets what one pays for, and if one wants perfect, then one has gotta belly up to the checkbook.

 

I've had people tell me I'm too much for a new early top.  But, for example, I'll spend the better part of a day just making sure the bows are aligned, right height, so forth, before the first material is ever cut.  Time is money.

[Rusty_OToole]

Trimacar you are the only upholsterer who regularly posts here so far as I know. I value your knowledge and experience and wish you would chime in more on questions like these.

[John348]

My best friend was a self taught upholsterer, whose story was very similar to Chris's. He specialized in late 50's and early 60's GM cars, and did the interiors that nobody made the kits for. He also said most of the kits were pretty good but needed some "tweaking" to make them perfect. His biggest complaint's were people wanting him to make good on a 10 year old estimate, and nobody wanting to pay because they went over budget on paint and everything else. He was excellent at what he did, but not the best businessman. He worked from his home, so overhead was low. He girlfriend retired and took him with her out to Palm Springs CA, so he hung it up. It is physical work his wrists and hands took a lot of punishment from all of the pulling and tugging, his back is shot from lifting seats in and out of cars, and who knows what damage breathing in all of the solvents and contact cement did over the years.   

[60FlatTop]

21 minutes ago, trimacar said:

he got discouraged and sold the car.

A little rule of thumb I realized either right before I went into the Navy or right after I got out: for every $1,000 more you are willing to pay you can get $4,000 worth of work someone put in. I may be off by a factor of 10 considering the year but the ratio remains the same.

 

One of my early memories is of a salesman complaining about the $500 cost of a new top for a '57 Chevy he had skinned out of someone on a trade. I asked him how much the car was worth. "$10,000" he announced with great authority. Maybe it is my memory that makes me seem unsympathetic.

[alsancle]

Here is an example of how expensive things can be.   This top was done in the late 80s when the car was first restored.  It is a double top which means it has a headliner and looks like a sedan on the inside.  The padding hides the bows and the trim was originally chrome plated brass,  but replaced with stainless when it was redone in 2002.    That 2002 replacement was just the outer shell and the trim with some work to the top bows because the top did not fit correctly.   The bill was around 25k.   That was over 20 years ago.

[trimacar]

Very nice!  I dida Mercedes cabriolet once, headliner hand stitched in place, horsehair pad, top….very labor intensive.

 

”some work to the top bows” can really add up the hours too.  Just like paint work, the preparation is critical, then one  has to get the “underwear” (pads, straps, bow covering) correct.

 

Just a regular touring car top can eat up 80 hours or more.  Double that if you want side curtains, which are very labor intensive.

 

Plus, the trimmer is usually working on a just painted car, and no one wants trimmer’s rash to appear….yet the trimmer is working with tools and nothing can miss or slip or fall…a challenge

[m-mman]

7 minutes ago, trimacar said:

Plus, the trimmer is usually working on a just painted car

Exactly. Who should have to be more careful? The painter or the trimmer? 
 

I don’t think it’s possible for a painter to work around a new interior.  
 

Trimming skills have long taken a backseat to body & paint, but I think trimming is more intensive and takes more skills.
 

You are creating coverings for 3 dimensional surfaces upside down and inside out then making sure that there are no wrinkles when they are flipped over. 

[dodge28]

Do not just sit and gripe about cost and poor workmanship, Go on UTUBE and do some research, educate yourself. Lots of information out there. THE BEST COSTOMER IS AN EDUCATED CONSUMER. You are not too old to learn simple sewing stitches on a sewing machine. Lots of publication on "do it yourself" out there. AOTOMOTIVE UPHOLSTERY HANDBOOK, by DON TAYLOR, FOR EXAMPLE.  

[alsancle]

This was done five years ago and was around 5k.  Unfortunately he is retired now.

[Walt G]

2 hours ago, trimacar said:

Just like paint work, the preparation is critical

EXACTLY. I learned to paint in lacquer in 1970 from a fellow who started to learn to paint cars prior to WWII. We did the work at his large purpose built 2 car heated garage in West Babylon , NY on long island.   He was adamant that if the sanded primer was perfectly smooth and correct the top color coat was just that - a top coat to cover what was present underneath. I spent over 2 years doing two cars with him as my teacher and learned well. I have not done upholstery but a long time friend has , especially on brass era cars and there is no way to "rush" anything. As has been mentioned time is money.

So many people now are just used to instant results because of the tap of a key on a computer. TIME is what it is all about and the resources for a proper job - be it upholstery, paint, or even doing research to write a proper story , there is no cutting corners.

[jp1gt]

On 7/16/2023 at 5:52 AM, jp1gt said:

I used to help my dad do 100 pt cars in Poway CA. He had a big wheel, not a motor to run the sewing machine to make the stitches perfect. Unfortunately I was interested in muscle cars at the time and did not pay enough attention to details. From the cars I helped him with I could not afford his prices. I am in SoCal looking for a decent, not perfect upholstery/conv top job also.

I used to help with diamond tuft, mostly stuffing horsehair. My Cad is not too complicated, I guess I will just figure it out when the time comes!!!

[Digger914]

On 7/16/2023 at 6:35 PM, TTR said:

I hear/read you, but your earlier comment made it seem like you believe/think that just about anyone with a sewing machine and scissors can do great upholstery restoration, which I don’t believe to be true and based on some comments from others, I may not be only one.

Just about anyone who really wants to can learn how to do passable auto upholstery work, but the odds of being borne with the knowledge and skills to do even a passable full restoration job are beyond astronomical. I have seen this work done by people who know how to do it and I've even been taught a few tricks of the trade which have saved me a ton of money over the years. I have a sewing machine and scissors, I can cut from a pattern and replace a bad panel, but my sewing machine has plastic gears so any leather seat seam I repair is hand sewn and for years I have purchased "kits" when available or taken my big work to the pros.

 

A couple of weeks ago I had to buy supplies from amazon and do some hand work that I would rather have had machine sewn. The shop that I had used for years is gone, finding a new trimmer isn't easy, the old pros are a dying breed, both figuratively and literally. Good upholstery repair has always been pricey and that's why grandma made slip covers for worn chairs. Grandmas been gone for years and slipcovers are such a lost art that people under 40 might need to Google the word, but sewing is still sewing, fitting is still fitting and perseverance is the most important part of getting any job done. 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Digger914 (see edit history)