Would it be "forgery".....

[Littlestown Mike]

I have a 1964 Falcon.  The serial number was stamped in three places---1) on the left front inner fender visible thru a notch in the fender along the edge of where the hood shuts.  It is also in 2 other places--2) on that same left inner fender but about halfway to the firewall, but there is no notch so the fender must be removed to see the S/N, and 3) the same place as #2, but on the right inner fender--not visible unless the fender has been removed.

My car has some rust on both inner fenders, right where the S/N locations 2 and 3 above are stamped.  After I replace the rusted metal can I stamp the original S/N at those locations or am i opening myself to legal issues?  I am only intersted in restamping the numbers that were there before the rust repair.

[bryankazmer]

What's the point?  If the point of the secondary serial numbers is to make it appear that there was never rust, yes, that's fakery.  

[Xander Wildeisen]

Every State would have a fraud department in the DOMV or Their Transportation Department. These would be the inspectors that would work on title issues and vin tag issues. Contacting them would be a good start to finding the answers you are looking for.

[60FlatTop]

I am hoping to get old and buy a place on Grand Cayman. They say you may see a motionless crocodile while walking the beach path. Don't poke him to see if he is alive.

 

Delete the post and never mention the topic again.

[8E45E]

Why would it be fraud?

 

You are replacing the rusted steel with new material, and replicating exactly as it was from the factory.  If you were attempting to change it to a different serial number, then it would be considered 'fraud'.

 

Craig

[Akstraw]

My opinion is that it would not be fraudulent to do what you propose.  I do think, however, that the reproduced numbers could cause issues down the road.  Each state is different, but in my state, a car of this age coming in from out of state would be subject to inspection by a DMV officer.  My experience with these officers is that they are professional, methodical, and precise.  They know exactly where to look for the numbers, and what the format of the numbers should be.  They can also tell a reproduced number/tag from an original.  Unfortunately, they are not “car guys”, so they are not very interested in restoration stories, etc.  As Sgt. Joe Friday used to say. “Just the facts.”  Should they see a car with reproduced numbers in some places, I think it would trigger a lot of further investigation and paperwork for the owner ( affidavits, etc.).    For that reason, I would not try to reproduce the stamped number, even if the correct number.

[Leigh Knudson]

Having made 15 VIN plates, with OEM permission, I don't see a problem.

[Trulyvintage]

3 hours ago, 8E45E said:

Why would it be fraud?

 

You are replacing the rusted steel with new material, and replicating exactly as it was from the factory.  If you were attempting to change it to a different serial number, then it would be considered 'fraud'.

 

Craig

^^^^^ Exactly ^^^^^
 

 

Jim

[Littlestown Mike]

It is interesting to see the variety of opinions.  Still watching....and thinking....

 

[MCHinson]

With 30+ years of law enforcement experience, I would say that it is not illegal. To protect yourself if there was ever a question, I would carefully document the original numbers with photographs (and keep multiple copies of the photographs in multiple locations), to be able to prove that you reproduced the original numbers and did not change the numbers. It is also very important that they are correctly reproduced in the original font style and size by the correct stamps. If you don't have the correct stamps, it could lead to some problems if the car were to ever attempt to be titled in a state that inspects antique cars coming into the state like they do here in North Carolina.

[R Walling]

 The key word about VIN's is Fraud.

 If you do anything to the numbers in an attempt to commit fraud it is illegal.

 If you remove a part that contains the VIN for reasons of repair or restoration and then replace it, that is not illegal. (in my interpertation of the law) Proving your intentions is a different thing.  

[CChinn]

Could you cut out the part of the original fenders with the VIN and then weld them in the exact location of the new fenders?  Also do the photo documentation suggested by MCHinson. Don’t have to worry about getting a stamp with exact font and size of the original VIN since it theoretically is the original VIN stamp. You could also do a notarized memo for the record documenting your process and reasoning and print out this thread to “prove intent “

[TAKerry]

If it is not the 'primary' vin but a 'checkpoint', I think I would talk to law enforcement and document what comes about. Restamping should be as close to original as possible. I would keep the original parts with the vin along with the car, just in case. Its obvious you are not altering, just replacing, but...........

Not sure I would cut out the original no. and patch weld back in, that would through up a red light imo.

[Terry Bond]

I believe it's called RESTORATION.

Terry⁹

[Littlestown Mike]

1 hour ago, Terry Bond said:

I believe it's called RESTORATION.

Terry⁹

That would be my thought.  The origianl VIN that is visible is untouched.  I am considering only doing the numbers that are difficult to see.  Warranty Plate on the door is untouched and agrees with the visible number.

Yes, if I was trying to pass off a regular production car as an original Shelby, I see how THAt would be a problem.

 

[John_S_in_Penna]

7 hours ago, Terry Bond said:

I believe it's called RESTORATION.

Well said.  Part of the definition of "forgery" is the intent

to defraud.  You're not defrauding;  you're not a forger.

 

11 hours ago, R Walling said:

Proving your intentions is a different thing.  

There is no crime committed, and thankfully, one principle

of good law is that no one has to prove his innocence.

Someone would have to prove that you were guilty--and you are not.

[Donotlift]

Yes but don’t tell you neighbors or the Internet 

[Littlestown Mike]

8 hours ago, Donotlift said:

Yes but don’t tell you neighbors or the Internet 

Do not assume that the car info I posted is correct.....

 

Thanks for all the replies.

 

[gungeey]

I would be more impressed with the story of your replacing all the parts to recondition the falcon than seeing the numbers perfectly coincide with an aftermarket stamp. Numbers matching 64 Falcon?

Don't get overly concerned. 

[Littlestown Mike]

There are no "numbers matching" Fords --at least of this era.  Engines numbers were not recorded; only the chassis number.  Not a Ford thing.

 

[kbillet]

If you are from Littlestown, PA it would be a mistake to contact the DMV. From my experience you will be connected to a incompetent individual, who will give bad information.