1922 Buick new top begins

[trimacar]

Great job!  That tension from rear bow to the next bow is what keeps side irons above edge of top, see so many cars with sagging irons.

 

Maybe not your car, but most rear bows end up behind rear of body, sometimes in line with rear body sheetmetal. Obviously period photos are a good guide.
 

Looks like just slightly behind in this artist’s misconception.

Edited August 20 by trimacar (see edit history)

[Mark Kikta]

I felt like this was pretty close.  What do you think?

[trimacar]

1 hour ago, Mark Kikta said:

I felt like this was pretty close.  What do you think?

My personal opinion is that the rear bow should go back further. My experience is, that with all the braces and straps, the rear bow still ends up forward of where it’s set, and I’ve done a lot  of tops. It’s my favorite thing from a trimmer’s perspective….

[Terry Wiegand]

Mark, I remember talking with Gary Martin about this very thing when he was doing the top for our car.  His opinion was that he wanted that back bow to be in a position that would be back of the top edge of the body tub so that the top would shed water and not have it get inside the body.  I hope that I have that worded right.  Sure looks like you are doing a wonderful job with this.  Maybe David might have a comment about what I have tried to relay to you.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas 

AACA Life Member #947918

[Mark Kikta]

Thanks to help from trimacar here on the forum, my rear bow is now stabilized in a better position.  Now all bows are re- stabilzed and leveled.  Rear webbing straps are installed this time. On to making some Pads. 

[trimacar]

That looks very appropriate.  What one has to either have, or develop, is an "eye" for what looks correct.  

 

I know from experience that not all trimmers have that talent.

 

I appreciate you listening to constructive (I hope!) criticism.....dc

[Leif Holmberg]

Confused about the band?

[trimacar]

I figured that was just a temporary strap to hold in place.  If that's what you're using as a strap, I'd agree it should be on the back.

 

Usually I use a strap similar to that, but cover it with top material.  Full wrap and sew along both sides, the back side edge of top material along one edge of strap and gets sewn.

[Leif Holmberg]

I`m using safty belts from automobiles between the top bows when restoring ,that belt material are very strong and very thin.

[Mark Kikta]

I did it this way because that is how my original top was constructed.  See picture below.  The 1 1/4" webbing strap was first tacked to the front edge of the bow and the other end wrapped up and over the tacked portion on the front edge and was tacked on the top of the bow.  I assumed it was done this way to reduce the bulk on the top edge of the bow and not have a double layer of bulk on the rear curtain side?

 

I have seen the later years like 24-25 and this strap is on the rear side of the bow but clearly these 22's had it differently.  Hopefully it works ok.

[Hubert_25-25]

That is an interesting detail to see the strap roll to the front side.  Also interesting to see that the last bow looks to be the same width as the other bows.  1 1/2".  I am used to seeing the last bow is wide.  3"  Perhaps another detail that changed over time.  My rear bow was notched on the back side for that webbing strap.     Hugh  

[Leif Holmberg]

Mark.

How about googling 1922 Buicks and earlier I don`t think you find anyone with the band in front of the bow!

If the band has been broken long time ago it`s impossible to nail from the back-rear side without removing the top material.

This`s my thought?

[Mark Kikta]

I remember both sides being the same and the larger sets of 3 tack holes used to attach each end of these straps were only on the front sides of the bow and top.  I examined those closely to see if that had been the case when I filled tack holes on my bows. I can’t find any 21-22 original interior top pictures on internet.  I don’t think anything much larger than this webbing will fit through these rear attaching brackets.

[Mark Kikta]

I have been sweating worrying About if I would be able to drive this car in and out of the garage with he top up. I used my laser level today to confirm it will be very close with the top up.

Also used it to verify my centerline mark is good on all bows.  
 

 

 

[Mark Kikta]

My rear bow has an additional support piece screwed on the underside from side to side but otherwise it’s the same size as the others.

[Mark Kikta]

Next I used the centerline to mark 25 inches either side on bows 1and 3 and used the laser level to ensure I had straight seam lines on all bows on both sides.  My original top center piece was 50 inches wide both front and back.

[dibarlaw]

Mark:

 Yes, good idea to check to make sure it clears the door. When we worked on Mr. Whiteford's 1922-45 in Baltimore he had 2 broom handles with holes drilled to lock over the pivot and the crutch tip rubber on the rear fender to drop the top down enough to get the car through his only 6'4" high garage door.

 John Feser and Mr. Whiteford when we worked on the car back in 2012.

 

 

What it looked like inside with the top dropped down.

 

 

[Leif Holmberg]

Mark.

When looked at your cowl lights I had to take a look at the photos on the  1922 4 cyl."chassie" I had long time ago,can`t remember if there was any hole for cowl light ,but is this the right lights on the 

cowl? Very nice jobb you have done on the top,but still wondering about the band.

[Mark Kikta]

Leif,

I’m certainly not the expert on Buick tops but I just thought I would duplicate what was there since I know this was an original top for 1922.  I’m learning a lot as I go.

 

My car had no cowl lights or holes for any, but I wanted to have some so after looking for several years, I bought these and made them work.  I’m not sure the 6 cyl open cars in 1922 came with the option.
 

 I don’t have the correct headlights either. I am using some 1923 headlights for lack of anything better. After five years of collecting headlight parts, I have everything I need except a good set of fully operational bezels with the four small lugs inside. 

[Mark Kikta]

Larry,

 

I remember that story and was dreading having to do that possibly.  Thanks

[Mark Kikta]

Used plastic sheeting to fit and mark my pad sizes today. Next I’ll start cutting material.

[Leif Holmberg]

Mark.

I have googling about Buick 1922 head lights,and i have found 2 different types ,to me it looks that the most "plane" bezel are used from late 1910s Buick up to early 1920s? Perhaps there are 1 type for 6 cyl.or another type for 4 cyl.???? I don`t have any parts books for 1921-1922.But I can see that 1919 K and 1920 H has 2 different bezels like the ones on the photos too.

[Mark Kikta]

Leif,  

 

I believe 1922 had different headlights for 4 cyl and 6 cyl cars.  I have only ever seen pictures of one type which I believe is the 6 cyl one, but I don’t know what the 4 cyl one is. Maybe just smaller Diameter??

[Mark Kikta]

So I took the plastic sheet patterns that I made and transferred them to my stayfast material.  Then I took those material pieces and put them on the car to fit them one last time.  Now this will be the base for my pads and they are 8 inches at the front and 9 inches at the rear.

 

Then I used these as patterns to cut bowdrill material which will be the cover for my pads.  I used a 1.8 formula making the cover 1.8 times the width of the pad.   This will allow overlapping material when the pads are filled so I will be able to sew the halves together.

 

So next I sewed the top and the bottom together along the edges and took them out to the car for initial installation.  I think my pad bases are ready for the webbing installation. 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 26 by Mark Kikta (see edit history)

[EmTee]

Very interesting to see the process.  Nice work - are you sure you haven't done this before? 

[Mark Kikta]

Today I worked on my pads.  Installed 6 strips of 3 1/2 inch webbing from front to back.  Pulled each strap tight and tacked in place on all four bows.

 

Next I’ll be installing the cotton batting on top of the webbing.  

[Hubert_25-25]

There is a difference in the straps available.  Black line 3 1/2” burlap strap is for seat backs and is rated at 9 lbs.  Red line 3 1/2” burlap strap is for seat bottoms and is rated at 11lbs.  I think what you have is adequate but there is higher rated strap available.  

Edited August 29 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

[Mark Kikta]

It's a lot heavier than the webbing in my original pads so I thought it was a good compromise to keep the bulk down and be plenty strong.  Hope I was correct.

[Mark Kikta]

Finally, a bit of a cool down outside and in my garage.  I cut strips of 1" thick cotton batting to place in my top pads.  I placed the cotton on top of the webbing and then pulled off some cotton all along the edges to make them less "Square" and also tapered the ends so as to remove the batting on top of the front and rear bows to keep the large bumps to a minimum.

 

Then I folded over the pad cover material (Bowdrill) and roughly pinned the pieces together trying to keep a straight line.  Next I came back and pinned the edges to keep them more precisely in place as I stitched the pieces together by hand.

 

Next I'll use my laser level to mark the top of these pads for temporarily attaching the welting cord for fitting the top pieces together.

[Hubert_25-25]

Great progress Mark.  Now that you have the pads in place, you should fold the top.  I would suggest doing this to ensure that you like the amount of padding in the top pads.  When I did my car, I thought I might have had a little more padding than I really wanted.  My non original top only had 1/4" thick of cotton padding in the pads.  I also used dacron batting which compresses a little easier than cotton while being very fluffy.   David Coco said that some Packards had no batting in the pads.  Either way, now is the time to see how much padding you have to deal with when the top is folded.  All the extra is what you will need to deal with when you put the top in the boot cover. 

 

Also wanted to make sure there are no tacks on the pads and into Bow #2.  The 2nd bow from the front.  This bow is wrapped in bowdrill only.  This is necessary to be able to fold the top correctly when putting it into the boot cover. 

 

Mentioning also that you will want to make a boot.  It keeps the interior of the top clean when it is folded and keeps the back window off the rear tire.   It also keeps the wind out of the top fabric stack.     Hugh  

Edited September 15 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

[Mark Kikta]

Thanks Hugh,

 

Interesting that my pads were tacked to every bow originally so I did the same.  They only used 6-8 tacks each on bows 2 and 3.  Guess we’ll see when we fold it!!

 

thanks for that bit of information

 

[Mark Kikta]

Ok so I tried to fold the top with my new pads and it folded perfectly as I see it.  It even looks now like the irons will fit perfectly in my Iron holders (not on the car right now).

 

Its starting to look like a real car a little bit at a time.  And the top went back up nicely.

Edited September 15 by Mark Kikta
Add photo (see edit history)

[trimacar]

I don’t recall ever stating that some Packards had no padding in the pads.  I strongly believe that’s not the case, as some padding is needed to make the top smooth.

 

One reason so many tops look like starved horses with ribs showing is insufficient padding, or using foam which compresses and disintegrates.

[Hubert_25-25]

David,  

    Thanks for the clarification about the padding.  I mis understood.  So one other question that I have.  Is it normal that bow #2 is not tacked to the pad?     Thank you,    Hugh

[Mark Kikta]

Today I set-up my laser level to align and attach the cording on the top side of my pads temporarily.  The cording was sewn in place and then I marked the cording every 4-6 inches so I can mark the sew lines on my center material and top side material.  The random marks will be used to make sewing marks on the pieces to be sewn together so I can keep my sewing aligned as I sew them together.

 

Next to cut some top material.

 

 

[Mark Kikta]

Today I cut the material for the top center section.  I took it out and laid it on the top and stretched it out and tacked it in place.  Then I marked the sew line and sewing marks with chauk using the cording I had sewn to the pads. I’ll now take it to my work table and I’ll give myself 1/2 in seam allowance and I’ll trim the top material sides.

 

Next I attached the plastic sheeting I bought from Sailright to make a pattern for the top side pieces.  I pinned them in place so as to ensure I didn’t have big wrinkles present.  Then I cut the excess material off.  I left plenty of extra space/material to sew the edges.  
 

I then laid my pattern on some material and now I can cut the material for a rough fit to the top.  I have to attach the material in place and mark the sew lines and sewing reference marks so I can sew the side pieces to the center section of the Top.  

[trimacar]

On 9/15/2023 at 10:00 PM, Hubert_25-25 said:

David,  

    Thanks for the clarification about the padding.  I mis understood.  So one other question that I have.  Is it normal that bow #2 is not tacked to the pad?     Thank you,    Hugh

With this type of top, the pads/straps have to be attached to every bow.  The tension from the back coming forward  is what keeps the side irons above the side edge of the top.

 

In general,most pads are attached to every bow.

[Mark Kikta]

This morning I finished using my plastic patterns to cut out fabric needed for the top side pieces.  Placed them in place roughly and then tacked them in place pulling and moving here and there in order to get the wrinkles out.

 

Then I marked over top of the welting cord so I would have the sew line marked.  Then I flipped the edge over to mark the sewing reference points as I did on the top center section.

 

Now it’s off to trim 1/2” or so from each of the sew lines for the seam allowance.

 

Next I’ll match them up to sew all 3 pieces together.

[trimacar]

Just remember that a wrinkle in material at this stage doesn’t go away, material needs to be pulled snug so no wrinkles at seam line nor along side.