Radial Tires - what do I do?

October 25, 2000

Ronbarn, Rick, Novaman, Peter, and others that can help:I copied this post from the Judging Forum hoping this topic would get more exposure and to get more input.I have been reading the posts for months, as you can see, I have only offered my .02 a couple of times. This time, I am asking for some sound advice.The radial tire discussion in the Judging Forum is an issue that has been a concern of mine since removing the original tires from my car 7 years ago. I own a 1974 Chevrolet Monte Carlo that came equipped with GR70-15 tires. I have contacted Lucas, Universal, Coker, etc. etc. etc. with the same response...there is not enough demand for those tires, sorry we don't have them.Thus my problem: I have the 2000 Official Judging Manual in front of me right now. I think that I understand the information on pages 78 and 79 about tires and the appropriate years that tire markings were first used.When I replaced my tires 7 years ago, I used P225/70R-15 tires. (Never in my wildest imagination did I think I would be as involved with this hobby/insanity as I am now.) But according to the book, they were not used on domestic cars until 1975. I have searched Hemmings with no luck. I am also a member of the National Monte Carlo Owners Association, no luck there either!My car has been fortunate enough to win the 1st Junior at Hershey in 99, the Senior Award at Winchester in 2000, and our First Preservation at Hershey in 2000.Maybe the 15 points were deducted...maybe not. Maybe we won the awards because of the current lack of involvement and competition from other vehicles in class 27K...maybe not. Maybe the car won because it was the best on that given day...maybe not.Cindy and I are planning on going to Johnstown (only 1 hour from home) in the Spring of 2001, the A.G.N.M. in Moline IL and Hershey in the Fall.The tires are a concern at all the meets. However, the A.G.N.M. is of great concern! It is going to be a 625 (+ or -) mile trip. I don't have to be the best, I just want to be ready to compete with the proper tires. As you know, a 15 point deduction at that level will kill my chances.Looking for more wisdom from the veterans!Thanks, JohnPS: Cindy and I are going to attend the judging school at Johnstown.....we enjoy the AACA events!------------------ <UL TYPE=SQUARE> <LI> 1974 Monte Carlo S <LI> 1986 Monte Carlo SS </UL>

ronbarn · October 25, 2000

John, Am glad to hear that you and Cindy are planning to at least attend the judging school. Recommend that you also do the Apprentice Team experience and both of you judge a few times. You'll learn a lot and even if you decide that judging is not your preferred participation, the learning will be good.Since you won the awards mentioned, I seriously doubt that you had the 15 point deduction. The competition in your class is to tough.

Rick Hoover · October 25, 2000

John, I was hoping to find more time in doing some looking around and getting some updates regarding your issue here before responding. I'm afraid I have come on here empty handed to a degree. I will however share some of my past experiences concerning these early letter size radials you're in need of. First off, I feel there IS a demand for these early radials and there has been for some time. I also feel it continues to grow every year. However, there still is not 'enough' demand or year usage (in my mind) to warrant the cost of placing these molds into production. (It's always the almighty dollar issue.) Second, There has also been a ill feeling of returning these early radials back into the market as for the problems they caused the manufacturers and customers when they were new in the 1970's. I'm sure that issue is still there in there minds. (Remember the Firestone 500's?) I will continue to inquire into this more and hopfully let you know what or how it stands yet today.As for what to do with your concerns with point deductions, I feel we need to hear from Ron or one of the other more experienced judges on this. My personal view on this matter is that they should not deduct points on a vehicle as yours for the fact that your specified tire size is not available to you. I also feel that this must have already been taken into consideration to you in the past shows as for your winnings to date. Congratulations! I will add however, that I would had perferred to see you were using a P215/75R15 instead of using a 'Low Profile' 70 Series radial which came about in 1975. Maybe that should not even be a issue here in your case.I would if I were you, continue to clear this matter up with AACA judging before going to the A.G.N.M.I hope some of this helped and I'll continue to look into this more. RickI see Ron has already come on here as I was doing this.[This message has been edited by Rick Hoover (edited 10-25-2000).]

October 25, 2000

Rick,Thanks for the input. I am hoping to hear from more of the experienced judges in this matter. What is the proper way to clear this up with the AACA judging long before the A.G.N.M.?And Father Ron,Cindy and I are definetely going to participate with an Apprentice Team. We both agree that it is something that we are interested in. We did not do it to this point because we did not want to leave our car unattended during judging for the 3 awards we have won. I think we are both in the "relax and enjoy" mode now.....except for the A.G.N.M. that I need more info on.Thanks, Hoping to get more input in the Forum!John------------------ <UL TYPE=SQUARE> <LI> 1974 Monte Carlo S <LI> 1986 Monte Carlo SS </UL>

Dynaflash8 · October 25, 2000

I was Chairman of Judges Training, 1977-79 (then called Judges Training Director). So, I've been at it a long time. At that time the rule was that if a tire was not available you used the next closest size that was safe. For example, many motorcycle tire sizes were not available at that time. I don't know what has changed since the 70's; however, I find myself in your same "box" with a 1971 Buick Riviera I am restoring. I have only recently written to the VP Class Judging and asked that this very issue be discussed and considered by the Judging Committee. Are you sure the original tire was a GR70X15, and not a GR78x15? In 1971 the G70x15 tire was called a "wide oval" and that is available from Coker. However, that is their largest size and the Riviera took H70x15 wide ovals. I don't even know what a "wide oval" was! The Riviera took either H78x15 or H70x15 wide ovals according to the brochure, neither of which, as I said, is available. The H78x15 is available as a very wide whitewall (unauthentic). However, on the inside of the glovebox door is a GM sticker listing alternate sizes. These include HR78x15, J78x15 and JR78x15, 7.75x15 whitewall (available in a red line tire from Coker), 215/R15 and 225/R15 (assume Michelin sizes--and I'm remembering how those sizes are written, off the top of my head). None of these tire sizes is available either. I have assumed that the 215 and 225 sizes on the inside of the glovebox door equate to P215 and P225. I have just purchased five new Firestone P225R75/15 tires. They are "wider" whitewalls, between 1 and 2 inches, which are about the correct size. I'd have preferred P235 but that size wasn't on the inside of the glovebox door. I thought if I had to argue, I'd better have a good base to argue from. No One could understand your delimma better than I do. And, like you, I'm still searching for the current correct answer. I hope to dig that answer out by sometime next year. [This message has been edited by Dynaflash8 (edited 10-25-2000).][This message has been edited by Dynaflash8 (edited 10-25-2000).][This message has been edited by Dynaflash8 (edited 10-25-2000).]

novaman · October 25, 2000

Sorry, I'm not going to be much help here. I mess around with the '62-'65 Chevy II Novas. Pre-radial tires. Also in judging, the only time I fell into a radial tire class was twice when I got stuck with those sports cars. By the way, I agree with the other thread on here about this class needing to be split up. Too many years covered in one class. There I had help when/if I needed it. Normally, I end up with the production cars in the 40s,50s, early 60s. Again pre-radial.

October 26, 2000

Dynaflash8,I knew the tire sticker for my car was on the driver's side door.....couldn't wait to get home to re-check what I probably have looked at a 100 times! The GM recommended tire sizes for my car are: GR70-15 and GR78-15. I still have the dry rot cracked original tires...they were General Dual Steel Radials GR70-15 (Tread 2 Ply Steel and 2 Ply Poly) with 3/8" white stripe. I know Coker has Firestone G70-15. But correct me if I'm wrong, they are not radials and the markings would still be wrong for my 74 Monte Carlo. $132.00 a tire x 5 tires gets to be pretty expensive if they still are the wrong tires for my vehicle.Sorry to hear that you have the same problem, but nice to know I'm not the only member trying to do what is right with both hands tied behind our backs!And Novaman, thanks for the response...hoping to hear from more members and judges.Thanks, John------------------ <UL TYPE=SQUARE> <LI> 1974 Monte Carlo S <LI> 1986 Monte Carlo SS </UL>

Dynaflash8 · October 26, 2000

My Buick brochure calls the G70x15 tire a "wide oval" and you are correct, it is not a radial. And, as I said I don't know the difference between a wide oval and a regular bias ply; but maybe it was some sort of a bias low profile tire. Somebody will know

Dynaflash8 · October 26, 2000

Ya'know, a number of cars in the mid to late 30's used 6.25x16 tires, one of which was the 1939 Chrysler Royal, which I wrote an article about for Antique Automobile a year or so ago. Nobody makes a 6.25x16 tire, so people use a 6.50x16. Few judges have a clue and I hope they don't read this. In one case, where the car has a exposed spare with a cover, the owner has to use a 6.00x16 spare to get it in the tire cover, but uses 6.50x16 on the ground for safety. So, what's the difference in what we're talking about here? There is no difference.[This message has been edited by Dynaflash8 (edited 10-25-2000).]

October 26, 2000

As our (soon-to-be-ex) president said, "I feel your pain". I have a 1970 Electra and have been looking high and low for the correct J78x15 belted tires, preferably with the original dual stripe whitewall. Like the others on this thread, I've checked ALL the repro houses and nobody has anything even close.This puts me in the same shape for BCA judging as the Monte Carlo fellow. BCA deducts for incorrect size and construction. At least (according to chief judge) the whitewall does not have to be the original dual stripe--just something "reasonable".In spite of all this, I oppose eliminating judging deductions just because a tire is unavailable. What about someone that DID find the correct tires? Or an original low mileage car with original tires? Certainly they should get a points advantage compared to the rest of us that "couldn't find" the correct tires! Right is Right and incorrect is incorrect. On a car where repro tires are unavailable, the "correct" tires are what separates the 100point cars from the 98point cars.Having said all that, anybody have any leads on J78 belted tires? "Greg" BCA#36864 email: glcmi@aol.com

Dynaflash8 · October 26, 2000

Everybody has a right to an opinion. I disagree with the last one. Your Buick is the same AACA class with a Chevrolet, for which the "repro" tires are available. It is only reasonable there be a level playing field. As for the man using NOS or original tires on a 30, 40, 50, 60 year old car, he's just lucky, in more ways than one. The hobby is supposed to be some fun as well as competition. Unreasonable judging takes away all of the fun. There has to be enough give in the system to be reasonable, otherwise you just run off your membership.

October 26, 2000

GLC,I respect your opinion. However at this point I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree, and because it is my car and my tires, I'm not sure that I could come up with a un-biased opinion.There have been many threads on this site about attracting the younger members and getting them involved. I am 45 years old. Probably not considered a younger member. But I am a young (7 years) to the hobby/insanity and only 3-4 years with the AACA. I'm trying to get involved. But I need help from the seasoned veterans. I'm reaching out, waiting to be helped and guided in the right direction.I have been monitoring and reading the posts on this site for many months. I have learned a lot from the members and their postings. My perception is that there are very few members that can relate to those of us that have "younger" cars from the early and mid 70's.I enjoy the older cars! Cindy and I were just facinated by the variety and quality of the vehicles at Hershey again this year. I wanted to take several pictures of the vehicles, but the people were 5 deep waiting to see them....not a good photo op. But Cindy and I grew up driving cars from the last 60's and early 70's. When I met Cindy I had a 74 Monte Carlo almost exactly like the one I own now!The A.G.N.M. is the best of the best! I think my car deserves a shot at being one of the best in the AACA. My car has already been selected as one of the best in the National Monte Carlo Owners Assocation for the past 6 years. I don't want to drive to Moline with reasonable expectations only to be told that I have lost 15 points because I have the wrong tires. GLC, because you are not registered in the Forum and because you did not mention that you are a member of the AACA, I assume that you are not familiar with the point/award structure at the A.G.N.M.I'm not going to speak for Dynaflash8, but we both have similar problems. We have the "younger" cars in the AACA. We both need help and input from the club.GLC, your post states "the whitewall does not have to be the original dual stripe-just something reasonable." Dynaflash8 and I are only asking for something reasonable!There is a thread right now about the barriers to entry. Although I have not read every posting in the thread, I get the idea. I view this as another barrier.Fellow members, please prove my perception wrong....we the members with the "younger" vehicles need help.As always, Thanks, John------------------ <UL TYPE=SQUARE> <LI> 1974 Monte Carlo S <LI> 1986 Monte Carlo SS </UL>[This message has been edited by harveyj (edited 10-26-2000).]

October 26, 2000

Dynaflash8,Not an "old you know what", just more experienced and probably a lot wiser! I don't believe in doing any job half-a$$. That is why I would like to get this tire issue resolved.Thanks again, John------------------ <UL TYPE=SQUARE> <LI> 1974 Monte Carlo S <LI> 1986 Monte Carlo SS </UL>

Rick Hoover · October 26, 2000

Dynaflash8, Isn't there a way John here can get some type of ruling in writing to carry with him to AGNM from the VP Class Judging, so as if he were to be called on this by the judges? I really don't feel he has a problem with deductions, but like him, I also would not want to find out the hard way there in Moline. AGNM is not the place to be going to, knowing you have a obvious 1 point deduction! Rick

ronbarn · October 26, 2000

Rick is somewhat wrong here. You can have five obvious, or not obvious deductions and you cannot be beat at the AGNM. The point spread is five and even if you are competing with a 400 point vehicle, you will still tie with a 395.Don't expect an across the board ruling re the tires. However, there is a procedure which was established several years ago that supports the owner in cases such as this. Write to the VP Class Judging. Provide proof that the "exactly correct" size tire is unavailable from any tire dealers and state the closest available size for a similar type tire which is available. If the VP Class Judging agrees that the correct tires are not available and also agrees with your alternate selection, a letter can be issued which validates the alternative tires and that will in effect be an acceptable substitute for "factory documentation".

Dynaflash8 · October 26, 2000

Father Ron: I'll take my glovebox door off during restoration and send it in

October 26, 2000

First to Dynaflash 8, Wide Ovals(Firestone trade mark) were a polyglass belt costruction tire. Goodyear called theirs "POLYGLAS". They cut down the road noise you receive from bias belt tires and give a much smoother ride, however, they are not radials and do not perform as well. They have a much larger ground print than bias, hench, can hold the road much better. Their sidewalls are straighter vertically than bias tires. Nowadays as then, the series(70,75,78 etc.)determines your print or the amount of surface in contact with the ground and the height of the sidewall. Don't confuse this with tire size, 205, 225, 235, etc. These metric sizes correspond to the width just as the letters did, G, H, F, or the old sizes 6.25, 7.00, 8.25, and so on, however, that width is not necessarily in contact with the road. This explanation could get a lot more specific, but I'll keep it general to this point. Now for John. I may stand corrected but, when you ordered a new car, you could have any tires put on that were available at the time. Even though your car calls for a certain tire on the door people would specify that they wanted different tires. I would think that any tires that were available when your car was manufactured(and to your satisfaction) could be used on your car at a show. I personally would put on Wide Ovals or the equivalent. This policy is used in other aspects of AACA judging and is an acceptable practice. Father Ron, what's your thoughts on this? Finally, if I were going for an AGNM award, I'd trailer the car that far. Too many things can happen driving that distance.

Dynaflash8 · October 27, 2000

Al: What do I do? Nobody makes any of the sizes that are big enough for a '71 Riviera. Largest size in a wide oval is a G and that is the only choice unles I put on 4 inch white wall H78x15 tires. Hmm, whatcha think? P.S. And Al, thanks a million for the explanation on what a wide oval is. I hadn't the slightest idea.[This message has been edited by Dynaflash8 (edited 10-26-2000).]

Dynaflash8 · October 27, 2000

harveyj: I don't know, I think everybody younger than me is a young adult! I have owned since 1955 70-some cars, mostly in the 30s and 40s, and mostly Buicks. Although we are in the same boat on this one instance, you'd probably consider me an old you know what if you met me . Most recently my collection is a '35 Buick, two '39 Buicks, a '48 Buick and the '71 Riviera. We also have one non-Buick , a '66 Chrysler convertible. To me, it's just common sense to "do the best you can". In my 38 years with AACA, with over 100 National Meets judged, that has always been my understanding. I may be temporarily out of touch on this issue, but as I said earlier, I know how it used to be. It is perfectly obvious that if you cannot acquire a certain size tire, in any way, that is safe, you have to "do the best you can". I will, hopefully, continue my efforts to get this particular issue resolved, in writing. I may fail, but it is my intention to try. [This message has been edited by Dynaflash8 (edited 10-26-2000).]

rodlars · October 27, 2000

Just a little story to show you how carried away some people get over some things. About 5 years ago or so a local collector paid quite a princley sum for a very low mileage midyear Corvette. After the purchase, he was contacted by someone who had the original non-DOT redlines for the car. He promptly plunked down $4500 for the set. I saw him at a show once where he parked the vehicle, jacked it up and installed the "correct" tires on the spot. Without closely examining the sidewalls, there was no way to tell the difference between the originals and the repros. Now that's extreme. :-)

October 31, 2000

Dynaflash8, Ronbarn, Rick, Alan, Novaman, & Rodlars,Thanks for your input. I wasn't expecting an easy solution...I am going to write a letter to the VP of class judging. I will let you know if anything gets resolved!Thanks again, John------------------ <UL TYPE=SQUARE> <LI> 1974 Monte Carlo S <LI> 1986 Monte Carlo SS </UL>

Radial Tires - what do I do?

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