V16 Cadillac in Bremen (Germany)

[Hans1965]

The Bremen Classic Motor Show took place last weekend, the first classic car event here in Germany. Saw this 1930 V16 Cadillac roadster there, no price tag. 7.4 liter 180 HP. Interior looked a little shabby. Cannot believe that this is correct. What do you guys think about the car? 

[Guest]

Some details here:

 

https://oldtimer-galerie-bremen.de/cadillac-452-roadster

[Rusty_OToole]

Have heard of 3 or 4 V16 Cadillacs sold new in Europe which surprised me, they are such a large, rare and expensive car. It seems they were usually imported as chassis and bodied locally. Do you know if this car carries a custom body?

[bryankazmer]

Didn't the CCCA magazine have an article recently on where the V16's went?

[edinmass]

 

If that's a roadster that was built in Fleetwood Pa, I'm Joe Biden.

[alsfarms]

Interesting specimen none the less.

Al

[edinmass]

21 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

Interesting specimen none the less.

Al

 

We flush specimen's down the loo here. Calling that thing a roadster is a disservice to everyone who preserves automobiles. 

 

Maybe the cut down sedan front doors are a clue? Or the overall terrible design and craftsmanship?

Edited February 7, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

I took a 25' look with the provided pictures. Now that you pulled the vision directly to the doors, I see what you mention. Next I see the cowl body line looks to square and bold as compared to a Fleetwood.

Al

[edinmass]

Al, I have one here behind me to compare....so it's easy.

[SC38dls]

Ed you’ve probably driven more of them than I’ve ever seen even in pictures! 
dave s 

[Gunsmoke]

With the (unnecessary) bashing above, I took the time to translate the German reference to see what the article had to say about the car. Here it is for those interested and who do not speak German. The reference to the vehicle being delivered to the English Governor of Gibraltar in 1930 should enable a sleuth to find a picture somewhere of said Governor with his new V16 Caddy. Perhaps that will address some of the dialogue above and give us some insight on just how this car came to be as it is presently shown. Personally, I wouldn't rule in or rule out anything without more info.

 

History

The Cadillac 452 of the American automobile manufacturer General Motors under the Cadillac brand was the world's first series-production passenger car with a sixteen-cylinder engine (V-engine) as well as automatic valve lash adjustment by means of hydro tappets.

First introduced to the public at the 1930 New York Automobile Show, which opened on January 4, 1930, the Cadillac V16 was majestic, elegant, and without being cumbersome in any way. It was especially popular with the most powerful men and women in America.

 

The centerpiece was, of course, the mighty V-16 engine. This was designed by Owen Nacker and was a mechanical and artistic masterpiece with overhead valves. The model name was not arbitrary, as '452' stood for 452 cubic inches = 7,413 cc. The V16 engine was mounted in a new, reinforced chassis with power brakes and a 'zero backlash' synchronized transmission. With a modest 180 hp, the enormous 320 lb/ft of torque was achieved at just over idle 1,200-1,500 rpm. Because of this torque, the flagship required only three forward gears.

Unlike its competitors, General Motors used in-house coachbuilders Fisher and Fleetwood to build the bodies for the new 452 series. The bodywork was custom built to customer specifications. Initial sales were robust in 1930, but declined in subsequent years thanks to the effects of the Great Depression. The Cadillac 452 was one of the most desirable and collectible American automobiles of the classic era. Far fewer than 4,000 V16 Cadillacs were completed between 1930 and 1935.

 

Vehicle description

This car was delivered directly to the English Governor of Gibraltar in 1930 and found its way via two previous owners to its current owner in 2003. This exceedingly handsome car presents itself in very good condition. Beautiful dark red leather adorns the two-seat cockpit and is repeated in the seating area. This Cadillac 452 features perfect paint, excellent bodywork, flawless gaps and immaculate chrome.

All chassis that left the Cadillac factories were fitted with different bodywork, making this Fleetwood-clad roadster very rare indeed. This car glides down the road with luxury and style and a smooth ride quality. Such an impressive car, a real  head turner. It is very reliable and can be used at any time. Even longer cross country trips are no problem. The current owner drives it regularly on rides and rallies and is a faithful travel companion. The invoices have been carefully kept and document a thorough and regular maintenance of the vehicle. This excellent condition has been assessed in an appraisal.

 

Data and technology: Manufacturer: Cadillac, Type: V16 Roadster, Model: 452, Year of manufacture: 1930, Engine: V 16, Displacement: 7.413 cc Power: 180 hp, Gearbox: 3 speed, Number of seats: 2, Color (manufacturer): light gray, Interior: leather, red.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

[R W Burgess]

I like it, would buy it at a reasonable price.

[edinmass]

 

Gunsmoke, you're entitled to your opinion........but the simple fact is that is not a V-16 Cadillac roadster. And it's not well done. It's a hacked up mess. I didn't critize the fact someone cut up a sedan....who knows, maybe it was rusty or burned, but if you're going to build something and call it a seven figure car..........at least do it well. It's not a replica or a representative of what a true Cadillac Fleetwood automobile was or is. 

[bryankazmer]

I think there is a very real issue with this car.  The dealer is representing this as a factory Fleetwood roadster.  Is this honest ignorance or something else?

[Cadillac Fan]

Caveat Emptor

 

Reproduction cars represented as authentic cars (even by omission) should be bashed.  

Reproduction cars represented as reproduction cars should not be bashed.  

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Cadillac Fan (see edit history)

[Gunsmoke]

Geez edinmass, I didn't offer an opinion at all. I simply translated the German reference and suggested we do some more research on just how this car came to be. It would not be the first time a rare and valuable car got re-bodied in Europe in the 30's or 40's and has been portraying its "new appearance" as a Roadster ever since, which it certainly is.  What major marque has not been exposed to such after sale customizing at some point.

 

Not sure where the references above to "factory Fleetwood roadster", or "7 figure car" come from. I'm certainly not an authority on this model, but it certainly looks like a reasonably bodied V16 Cadillac, regardless of what it was when it left the GM factory.  Some issues like door and golf door hinges and some fit and finish don't mean it is not a rare and valuable car. I understand many coachbuilders took a shot at bodying these cars, some doing a great job, others not so good. Certainly rear tub (except for golf door) looks very authentic.

 

BTW, the aforementioned "Guvnor" was General Sir Alexander Godley (b1967, d1957 age 90)(see photo, looks like John Cleese of Faulty towers fame) a 47 year British army guy who served as Guv in Gibraltar 1928-1933. He was a very tall guy, and it is possible he had car tailored to his size. He and his wife never had children, so a roadster would be perfect! I'm sure there is documentation somewhere pinning down just how this car came to be, some of us might be surprised.  

[alsancle]

I know nothing about this particular car so I'm talking in general:

 

1.  If you are standing next to an Auburn V12 Speedster it started life as a sedan.  The one in 50 times that isn't true is the exception the proves the rule.

 

2.  If you are standing next to an Auburn 851 Speedster,  the odds are much better say 50/50.   EDIT:  I'm assuming you can identify a plastic car easily.  Otherwise the odds are more like 1 in 500.

 

3. If you are standing next to a Cadillac V16 Roadster,  the odds are similar to the 851 speedster.

 

I won't even mention 745 Packards.

Edited February 7, 2023 by alsancle (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

I believe Ed... that it's a hot mess. And the auction company is definitely trying to pass it off as an authentic Fleetwood roadster. If there was any history at all as to why this car is such a poor representation of such, it would be included in the information that Gunsmoke provided. I seriously doubt that the Guvnor ever saw this car in its current configuration.

 

[alsancle]

I have never seen another V16 with artillery wheels.  There is one roadster with wood wheels.  I think it just sold for something like 1.5 million.

Edited February 7, 2023 by alsancle (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

Al. I believe those are disc wheels, not artillery. Apparently there was a 1930 V-16 in the 1934 movie "Gold" that had the disc wheels.

[CD9591]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

We flush specimen's down the loo here. Calling that thing a roadster is a disservice to everyone who preserves automobiles. 

 

Maybe the cut down sedan front doors are a clue? Or the overall terrible design and craftsmanship?

Ed, you don't have to sugar coat it, just say what you really think.

[MotiveLensPhoto]

Not that anyone asked, but all I can say is that color combo is terrible, regardless where it came from.

[Matt Harwood]

For comparison, here's a real Fleetwood V16 roadster about to be auctioned at Amelia. Note the rear deck is shaped differently, the doors are different, the golf door is different, the moldings are different, the top stack is different, the seat back is different, the cowl is different, and if you're going to try to sell a high-dollar car, at least put six matching tires on it, for God's sake. It'll fool the general public but as soon as you show up where V16s are competing, you'll be laughed off the show field.

 

 

[Gunsmoke]

May have started life as a Coupe (or convertible) rather than sedan, a bit easier conversion to Roadster. I'm sure there will eventually be a "big reveal" on here! Here is a dash photo for 1930 V16. Obviously some details differ especially sheet metal dash/doors, door pulls......

Edited February 7, 2023 by Gunsmoke (see edit history)

[MotiveLensPhoto]

1 hour ago, Gunsmoke said:

May have started life as a Coupe (or convertible) rather than sedan, a bit easier conversion to Roadster. I'm sure there will eventually be a "big reveal" on here! Here is a dash photo for 1930 V16. Obviously some details differ especially sheet metal dash/doors, door pulls......

I want a golf door!!!

[alsancle]

2 hours ago, West Peterson said:

Al. I believe those are disc wheels, not artillery. Apparently there was a 1930 V-16 in the 1934 movie "Gold" that had the disc wheels.

Sorry.  I meant to say what you said.

[1937hd45]

I like the hidden hinges on the real one. 

[Hans1965]

I didn't expect that I could give you so much excitement. 

I have to say as total amateur it still looked quite impressive to me.

[prewarnut]

I think the German car's wheelbase is shorter (the hood sure looks it). To check the photos I measured the height of radiator:wheelbase which is 0.26 on the German car and 0.25 on the brown example.

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, prewarnut said:

I think the German car's wheelbase is shorter (the hood sure looks it). To check the photos I measured the height of radiator:wheelbase which is 0.26 on the German car and 0.25 on the brown example.

 

It is the angle of the pictures.   One of the thinks that struck me first time I drove a 30 V16 was that the hood doesn't seem that long relative to other "long" hooded Classics.  Not that I would throw one out if given to me.

The later cars have longer hoods.  The 34-37 is much longer.

 

 

[prewarnut]

You could be right, they are at a slight different angle. I was counting the exposed hood louvers but the angle may account for that.

[hidden_hunter]

12 hours ago, alsfarms said:

I took a 25' look with the provided pictures. Now that you pulled the vision directly to the doors, I see what you mention. Next I see the cowl body line looks to square and bold as compared to a Fleetwood.

 

It's amazing how little it actually takes for it to just look "wrong" - when I saw the photos I was just like nope without knowing what exaclty is was

[TAKerry]

Thanks for the comparison photos. I thought the original posted car looked pretty good, shows what I know, LOL. Comparing the two the difference is obvious, but from a hobo like me I wouldnt have any problem at all driving that German car around. I suppose the issue is calling it a Fleetwood when its not one. IF the body provenance was spelled out correctly would the car be acceptable in the upper circles? Isnt it still a 16 cyl. Caddy?

[alsancle]

2 hours ago, TAKerry said:

Thanks for the comparison photos. I thought the original posted car looked pretty good, shows what I know, LOL. Comparing the two the difference is obvious, but from a hobo like me I wouldnt have any problem at all driving that German car around. I suppose the issue is calling it a Fleetwood when its not one. IF the body provenance was spelled out correctly would the car be acceptable in the upper circles? Isnt it still a 16 cyl. Caddy?

Depends on how “upper“ the circles are you’re talking about.

 

I’m never been a fan of rebodied cars. I much more appreciate the original sedan body than one that has been re-bodied into a speedster or roadster.

[Matt Harwood]

No matter where you take that car, there will be whispers and fingers pointed. It is (in principle) not allowed on any CCCA or AACA show field, but they don't really seem to enforce the "no rebodies" rule these days (although this one is so egregious that it might force their hand when it shows up). The problem is that it's still going to be a very expensive car to buy, own, and maintain. You're going to spend six figures on a car that's not welcome anywhere, that has a big black mark on it that will make it hard to sell in the future, that will always the the subject of scrutiny or even ridicule. Yes, it's technically a V16 Cadillac roadster. But if you want to participate in the organized hobby with it at any level beyond the local cars and coffee, it's going to be tough to find acceptance. If you merely want a V16 Cadillac and will drive it by yourself on quiet Sunday mornings, well, that's a different kind of enjoyment that I can understand.

 

It's in Europe and I suspect they care less than we do about the rebody. Many of their mid-range events are a lot more lenient and Europeans seem to like driving more than showing, so the car will surely be better off staying on the Continent.

 

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

I have seen pics before of American luxury cars that were bodied, or rebodied in Europe, sometimes rather crudely but usually with good quality bodywork, but obviously different from American bodies. This car struck me as one of those that was done by a small local concern and not up to the usual standard. It seems quite a few luxury cars were rebodied when they were a few years old, this was much  more common in Europe than in America.

[edinmass]

On 2/7/2023 at 12:21 PM, bryankazmer said:

I think there is a very real issue with this car.  The dealer is representing this as a factory Fleetwood roadster.  Is this honest ignorance or something else?

 

Nobody is that stupid.

[JV Puleo]

5 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

No matter where you take that car, there will be whispers and fingers pointed. It is (in principle) not allowed on any CCCA or AACA show field, but they don't really seem to enforce the "no rebodies" rule these days (although this one is so egregious that it might force their hand when it shows up) ...

How then, do they deal with open RR cars? I'd be more than 50% of the open cars have been rebodied....some by the factory but lots by "restorers".

[ChrisCummings]

There's a good chance that the Cadillac in Bremen started out in life as a Madame X seven-passenger limousine (Style number 4175) with engine number 702746.

 

Chris Cummings

[CD9591]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

 

Nobody is that stupid.

Are you sure these days ?