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1925 rear wheel bearing and axle seal removal


KEK

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Hello everyone -

 

I finally got around to pulling the rear wheel hub so I can replace the axle seal on my model 24. I thought I would remove the wheel bearing and repack it while the hub was off. The bearing doesn’t appear to just slide out. Do I need some sort of puller to remove it? It almost looks like a large washer is holding it in the hub - see photo.  I don’t want to start prying on it until I get some advice…

 

I can see the felt seal that needs replaced sandwhiched between the shedder. I read elsewhere on the forum that the shedder is held together by 2 spot welds. My shedder does not seem to have spot welds but there are a series of tabs around the hub- see photo. Any guidance on how to take the shedder apart so I can replace the felt would be appreciated.

 

Thank you,

Ken

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Ken:

 Your internal taper on the hub looks better than what was on my car.

 The rear axle bearing should pull out easily. On the underside of the shedder assemblly the felt is held in by a steel cap which were usually just knocked out. The new felt installed and the cap pressed back in.DSCF1394.JPG.71dcff134ad6e0f19bd1835c5c1f0ddc.JPG

 

DSCF1396.JPG.6155c76ab19cb281ce0263b68f4ad95a.JPG 

 

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You don't likely have to take the seal unit apart, you should be able to pry the felt out and weasel a new one in there.  Might be easier to split it if you have the spot welder to put it back together without setting the seal on fire. 

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Yep the bearing came right out after turning it and pulling at the same time.  

 

Larry - Do you have the ID of the felt seal shown in the picture you posted?  I think the felt seals I got from Bob’s might be too small. I ordered the RS-258 which are the seals for a Standard 1925 Buick. The ID of the new seals are about 1.93”.  The ID of my shedder is about 2.45” and the OD of the hub is about 2.39”

 

Seems to me the ID for the felt seal should be about the same as the OD of the hub so there is a tight seal.

 

What do you think? Did I get the wrong seal?

 

Thanks,

Ken

 

 

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Ken:

 Sure looks smaller that the one in my photo from 10+ years ago. The one you show may be for a front wheel seal. My yet to be installed refinished 22" wheels with new seals show about 2 3/8" ID. For the rear.

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Seals with their retainers. Below the front felt seal. A quick scaling shows about 1 15/16", which should be correct for the front.

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That makes sense that Bob sent me front seals. I’ll contact him and see what he says. Thanks for the help.

 

I took a good look at my shedder and I just don’t see the two spot welds. I attached a couple more photos that show tabs around the perimeter of the shedder. I attached photos showing the front and back side views. I don’t think I want to try and take it apart because I might not get it back together. I’ll just try and ‘weasel’ in a new seal.  Maybe there are different styles of shedders. Some are spot welded together and others use tabs?

 

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Edited by KEK
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Larry-

Thanks for pointing out my shedder is an aftermarket replacement. Being a replacement it may not be rebuildable. I would hate to take it apart and not be able to get it back together again. I’ll try to weasel in a new felt. The old felt is very tight and I have the same concern that I would not be able to get the new felt in without distorting it.  That would not be good.

Ken

 

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Larry-

 

That’s encouraging. I haven’t heard back from Bobs so I don’t have the correct size felt seal yet. I don’t want to remove the old seal until I have the replacement.

 

I noticed the 6 bolts that hold the shedder on the drum were not very tight. Probably just a little more than finger tight. Since the shedder and cork gasket were not tight on the drum I had oil all over my brake liner and drum. 
 

I am thinking it’s possible my felt seal might be okay since we know it had been replaced with an aftermarket shedder and seal. If the ID of the new seal is the same as the ID of the old seal then I’ll try replacing the cork shedder gasket and tighten the bolts. Maybe that will solve my leaking oil problem?

 

Ken

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Larry-

 

I am pretty sure my shedder gasket was not working. I also had oil on my service brake bands. I am trying to clean them off with an engine degreaser and brake cleaner.  They are cleaning up but I don’t have any idea how much oil is still soaked into the bands. Maybe after I get them back on the car and heat them up a couple times with some firm stops will help. If I can rivet new E-brake bands on without any issues then I am thinking I should put new bands on the service brakes as well.

 

Still no word from Bob’s about the felt seals….

 

Ken

Edited by KEK
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If the bands (internal or external) have gotten oil or grease on them, they are done and need to be replaced.  I have never been able to sucessfully reuse any brake friction material after it has been contaminated with a lubricant.  Save yourself the trouble of doing the job twice.     Hugh

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Hugh-

 

You’re right…I am going to replace the service brake lining at the same time I replace my E-brake lining. 

 

I called Bob’s and got his service manager. I told him the felt seal they sent me was too small to fit over the hub. He said it was the right seal and I could return it. I asked him if he saw the photos I sent him of the dimensions of the seal and hub and he could see it’s not correct for the standard and was probably a front axle seal. He told me he doesn’t get Bob’s email and was too busy to check and to just return them! Geez…..what terrible service. 

 

I called Olson’s gasket and got just the opposite response. Very happy to help me.  All they need are the dimensions and they will make me a pair of felt seals (same price as Bob’s).  I am thinking I need a seal that is 0.40” thick with an ID of 2.5” and an OD of 2.75”.  

 

Hugh- do you happen to have the dimensions for the rear axle seal?

 

Thanks,

Ken

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Ken, 

  I have an option for you.  

Option 1 is as NOS as it gets.  In 2015 I bought a set of NOS wheel shedders in the original box and packing.   There are 2 in this box.  Here are a couple of dimensions. 

Cone on the inside 2.410 ID

metal against the hub 2.460 ID

Felt when installed ID 2.310

I was not able to easily remove the felt seal, so I cannot give you the dimensions of just the seal out of the shedder.

 

I also have this picture of the 2 rear wheel felt seals.  I cannot seem to locate this bag, although I did find the bag with front felt seals.   I also looked thru my notes and I have the following.   Original felt seals for the shedder are 2 5/16” x 3” x 3/8” 

 Hugh 

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Edited by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)
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Hugh- 

 

That’s awesome you have NOS shedders. Cool box. 

 

I’ll forward the dimensions of your original felt seals to Olson’s. They are slightly different that what I had so I really appreciate you taking the time to dig out your measurements. Nothing surprises me anymore with the amount of information you have on these old cars. Just amazing!

 

Thanks,

Ken

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  • 3 weeks later...

All-

 

I received my new felt seals from Olson Gaskets and did the best I could to ‘weasel’ them in the shedder. The felt bunched up a bit at one end but it should work okay.  If not, I am going to install a modern seal that Hugh has a procedure for.  I replaced the felt seal on both axles.  The other shedder is spot welded like Larry’s and the dimensions of the after market shedder is the same.

 

I installed the wheel and torqued it to 220 ft/lbs and bent over a tab to lock the nut in place on the axle.  

 

Larry - Thanks for making those locking washers for the axle. They worked perfectly. Neither of my axles had a washer when I removed the hub. Also the axle nut was definitely not torqued to 220 ft/lbs when I removed them.  It took very little force with the hub puller to remove the hubs.  Hopefully nothing was damaged from the axle nut not torqued properly.

 

Thanks everyone for helping me with this project.

Ken 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hugh -

 

The dimensions listed above in the parts book for the 1925 standard shedder felt are the same dimensions that you provided me from your notes. So the dimensions I gave Olsen’s are correct.  I think the shedder was just to tight to ‘weasel’ them in without deforming the felt.  If I could have separated the shedder then I could have installed the felt without distorting it but I wasn’t confident I could R/R the shedder pieces without damaging it.  

 

The snow melted last week enough that gave me an opportunity to drive the car and test the seal.  It was in the low 40s so not too cold. So far no oil has leaked out of the drain tube so I think it is working.  I would have had a lot of oil on the floor with the old seal for the distance I drove it. So far so good!

 

Thanks,

Ken

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  • 10 months later...

Hi guys. I have replaced the felt seals in my sheeder on my 25-25. I drilled out spot welds and welded the halves together as just couldn't weasel in my felt seals. I notice on the parts list there is also a felt seal for hub. Is this correct and necessary as all I could see was old material around bearing housing .  Thanks!

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Take the brake bands and put them in an old oven and set them to broil for three hours, or put the oven on self clean…..the heat will burn out the oil, and the friction material will be good as new. I have been doing it for 45 years. Works great. Did it on a Duesenberg last month………

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On 2/1/2024 at 7:41 PM, edinmass said:

Take the brake bands and put them in an old oven and set them to broil for three hours, or put the oven on self clean…..the heat will burn out the oil, and the friction material will be good as new. I have been doing it for 45 years. Works great. Did it on a Duesenberg last month………

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I have never had any luck rejuvenating grease or brake fluid soaked friction linings.  I have cleaned them repeatedly with brake clean.  They usually look good, but the functionality is not there. 

I can't see just heat having the ability to remove all of the oils that would be soaked into the fibers.  I can see the heat thinning the grease, but I don't see it driving it out of the friction material.   

I currently have some grease soaked front brake bands.  

Hugh

 

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Heat burns everything out, and the only thing that remains is carbon. I have done this countless times over fifty years. The photos I posted are of an original low milage Duesenberg…….I wouldn’t gamble a historical artifacts safety or function. Just bake/broil them for a few hours…..clean them with brake clean afterwards…..and then rebake them. Presto…..as good as new.

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Edinmas, 

    As always, I appreciate your expert advise.  I will try this, but I do not have an extra oven, as this won't be happening in the house because I don't like sleeping on the couch.  I would consider doing this on the outdoor grill.  Would you think I could first clean the band as good as possible.  The band is about 14" diameter.  Then set it on a cookie sheet, then warm up the grill to 500 degrees?      Hugh     

 

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Edited by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)
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Yesterday I pulled the front hubs on the 1927 Buick.  The first photo shows the grease removed from each front wheel.  The round green blob is the grease from the left front hub.  It came out like a semi solid mass.  This was on the outside of the outer bearing in the dust cap area.  There was a small amount of grease in the inner bearing cavity.  The pile of grease on the right is from the right side hub.  It had some grease on the outer bearing, but the inner bearing was packed FULL and it must be an entire tube or tub of grease that was on this side. 

 

The second photo shows the grease on the brake lining.  You can also see on the brake actuating pivot above the axle has additional grease that was pumped in.  Everything is well lubricated.

 

The third photo is the brake actuator bracket against the frame.  It is missing a bolt and nut.     

 

I will post more after I clean all this excess up and prepare to heat up the brake band.       Hugh  

 

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I just removed both the rear wheel bearings from my 24/45, the right one had obviously been turning on the axle and when I tapped it on my bench shards of burned metal fell out, the L/H one is simply seized. Not looking to good, anybody have a spare set of rear wheel bearings or a good source for them??? 

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John

I have a pair of NOS New Departure 5310 bearings which I purchased before finding a 1928 rear axle which uses single row bearings.  One has some surface rust.  These are same size (50mm x 110mm x 44.4mm) as the original 0310 bearing.  My recollection is the part number was changed from 0310 to 5310 in later years .   This bearing  is a common size used in many industries,  made by multiple companies, and not hard to find at bearing supply houses and e-bay.  Unfortunately some of the foreign made bearings are not up to the quality of 100 year old New Departure bearings.   I have $50 in this pair, so will gladly sell for same. 

Kevin 

ND 5310 bearings.jpg

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John:

 Just a warning as this is probably what happend to my 1925-45. Rear bearing seized and wore some of the bore. These should be a fairly tight fit. The previous owner had bought new bearings and poured solder around the outside of the shell to take up the space. I cleaned mine up the best I could and fit .005 shim stock in the damaged bore. Wraping the outer shell. It was a good drive fit and now the rear wheels no longer wobble.

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The fully wrapped area with the .005 shim stock was able to take up .010 total play.

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I also made a .020 brass shim washer since the bottom of the bore was scorred also.

 

Edited by dibarlaw
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  • 3 weeks later...

As a follow up, I did take the Edinmas advice.  I wiped off all the grease.  Then multiple passes with brake clean.  Then into the grill.  I used 2 bricks to raise two cookie sheets off the grill bars.  I used a heat gun and did 500 degrees for 3 hours, did "brake clean" spraying again after it cooled, and put it into heat for another 3 hours.    The friction material used to be a green colored.  Now it is black.  It also burned off all the paint, so that was resprayed.  While apart, I replaced the felt hub seals with modern lip seals.  On the maiden voyage, I finally had decent brakes.  More and other issues with brake problems.  On the ride home, this wheel started to pull slighlty to this side, and the wheel got very hot and started smoking.  The brake pedal was not coming up all the way.  So I did another check of the band clearances.  Front brakes work well now, but I have issues with a bent rear drum and the brake pedal is not coming all the way up, so I need to start pulling clevis pins and greasing linkage parts.    Thank you Ed.     Hugh       

   

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Hi Hugh-

 

I had a similar issue with my 25-6-24 brakes.  After I completed replacing all my brake linings I adjusted the brakes following the procedure in the 25 shop manual.  I took her out for a test drive around the block and the car seemed to be losing power so I pulled over and saw my front left brake was smoking.  The brake band was not releasing.  I had tools with me so I released the brake and returned to my shop.

 

I put the car up on the lift and readjusted all 4 brakes again but this time I didn’t follow the shop manual procedures.  I could see that the trick is to adjust both bands so they grab evenly around the drum.  I then adjusted the rears and left the fronts loose then took her out for a test.  During the test run I tweaked the rear bands so the car would stop in a straight line without pulling to either side.  After I was happy with the rear brakes I then slowing started to tightened the front bands a little at a time and so it was not pulling.  I still need to tighten the fronts a little more but the brakes are working better than ever.  When the weather gets nicer I will finish the job.  I really want to take the Buick on a 160 mile cruise with some other antique cars in April so the brakes need to be in good working conditions.

 

Ken

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