1958 Buick Limited Starter Sticking

[FireballV8]

Hello Everyone

I have an interesting problem with a 1958 Buick Limited which I am restoring. I am ready to start the engine for the first time after everything was rebuilt, but the starter engages and spins the engine, but will not stop once the starter switch is released. The starter has been tested on the bench and it works fine, however in the car it seems to be getting stuck on the flywheel. The only way to stop the cranking is to remove the battery cables. Even with the vehicle wiring isolated and power given directly to the starter and solenoid from the battery and a remote starter switch, it still has the same issue. 

 

I am clear out of ideas, anyone ever seen this issue?

 

Any help is appreciated.

 

Thank You

 

Steve

[Pete Phillips]

Weak return spring? Isn't the Bendix drive mounted on a return spring?

 

[JohnD1956]

Have you verified the two smaller wire terminals on the solenoid are not touching the battery cable there?

[Wayne R]

You could try   using   shims  between starter and  housing,---some  manufatures  recommend

this anyway.  very thin   .

[EmTee]

Is it just the starter drive gear sticking to the ring gear (mechanical interference), or is the starter motor still energized (electrical issue)?

[old-tank]

4 hours ago, EmTee said:

or is the starter motor still energized (electrical issue)?

That would be most likely, with the contacts in the solenoid sticking due to a low voltage condition (weak battery, defective starter relay).  If that was one of your 55's, I would tell you to apply 12volts+ to the black 10gauge wire at the starter relay (goes down to the solenoid) and see if it behaves.  Check back or post a wiring diagram.

[FireballV8]

Thanks for the comments so far everyone.

 

Willie, it seems the wiring is very similar to the 55 Buicks, same relay and junction block, etc. As you stated above, I tried and connected 12 volts to the black wire at the relay (I disconnected it from the relay as well) and it still continues to spin. That is why I think it may be a mechanical interference. The starter does not stay on when tested on the bench out of the car. 

 

Where and how would you shim the starter? How could I verify if it is a mechanical interference?

 

Thanks

Steve

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Agree with Em.  Mechanical hang up or electrical connection  .  Stopping when battery cables are removed points to electrical to me. Seems something is not " breaking " the connection.

 

  Ben

[lancemb]

@FireballV8

When you isolated the rest of the system did you totally isolate the relay? Did you check for parasitic draw, or specifically voltage going to the relay when ignition is on but not cranking? There could be a short somewhere causing some current to flow through relay, which could be enough to not cause it to crank without engaging the starter switch but enough to hold the relay once it's engaged.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[60FlatTop]

I would remove the starter and take off the solenoid. Once the plunger and spring are out you can remove the Bakelite contact mount and get a good look at all the terminals and their connections.

 

 

I have had them short internally two times in my whole life. It is a part of the starter repair that often gets overlooked.

[FireballV8]

7 hours ago, lancemb said:

@FireballV8

When you isolated the rest of the system did you totally isolate the relay? Did you check for parasitic draw, or specifically voltage going to the relay when ignition is on but not cranking? There could be a short somewhere causing some current to flow through relay, which could be enough to not cause it to crank without engaging the starter switch but enough to hold the relay once it's engaged.

 

 

Hi Lance

I just applied 12 volts to the big bolt on the solenoid and connected to the small terminal with a remote starter switch. The ignition key in the car was on off. 

That is why I am thinking this is a mechanical issue, but I am not 100% sure anymore. I just need to figure it out, so I can get the car to the upholstery shop for the new convertible top. 

Edited January 27, 2023 by FireballV8 (see edit history)

[FireballV8]

Thanks Bernie

The picture really helps, I bought another solenoid to try and had the same results with both. 

 

[old-tank]

1 hour ago, FireballV8 said:

8 hours ago, lancemb said:

@FireballV8

When you isolated the rest of the system did you totally isolate the relay? Did you check for parasitic draw, or specifically voltage going to the relay when ignition is on but not cranking? There could be a short somewhere causing some current to flow through relay, which could be enough to not cause it to crank without engaging the starter switch but enough to hold the relay once it's engaged.

 

 

Hi Lance

I just applied 12 volts to the big bolt on the solenoid and connected to the small terminal with a remote starter switch. The ignition key in the car was on off. 

That is why I am thinking this is a mechanical issue, but I am not 100% sure anymore. I just need to figure it out, so I can get the car to the upholstery shop for the new convertible top. 

Remove the 10 gauge black wire from the starter relay and then apply 12v+ to that wire.

[avgwarhawk]

Is the starter the original just rebuilt?  I replaced/rebuilt the solenoid on my 60. The starter stayed engaged after the engine started.  I ended up needing to use the plastic terminal housing from the original solenoid to solve the problem.  Check the path of each terminal connection. One is battery. The other goes to the armature tab at the back of the starter.   

Edited January 27, 2023 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[JohnD1956]

Sounds like a broken remote starter button to me.

 

[lancemb]

@FireballV8

 

I don't think it's a mechanical issue; that shouldn't cause the starter to continue working.

 

Before you take anything else apart, check for parasitic draw. Further, see if the relay is getting any current while the ignition is off.

 

It's a quick check to help get you closer.

Edited January 29, 2023 by lancemb (see edit history)

[195354]

I had the same issue last fall on an old 235 Chevy. Starter would stick in crank mode until battery disconnect was used. Removed for repair no problems found installed and it would still stick in crank mode.  It never would stick out of the vehicle. I don't know why it would not stick on the bench.

 I  removed the small wires on the solenoid wanted to rule out a wiring issue. Then used a starter bumper and it would stick. This ruled out any issues in the wiring.  Sounds like you are at this point now.

 

I worked with a rebuilder in town he has done this for years. Did find a few issues in solenoid as Bernie noted. This fixed the issue for the most part. It stuck in crank mode after about a week. What I did was loosen the starter solenoid and center it a bit to the plunger so far it has worked.

 

I have a starter from a 322 on the bench it has slotted mountings for the solenoid you can move it forward and backwards some movement left and right. Could it be the plunger is sticking inside the solenoid for some reason when bolted up. 

 

Check the starter drive: could its  going too far into the flywheel. The rebuilder talked about this on mine and he brought up adding shims as needed to the shaft that would limit travel of the drive. Look at the contact area on the starter drive hopefully it has witnessed marks.  Last thought do you have used starter you can try? 

 

Steve 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[60FlatTop]

I don't like the angle of the Bendix arm in its de-energized position. It looks like it could be on the wrong side of the collar.

 

When I went looking for a picture I found this shot from the 1958 shop manual. Now I wonder if you have the right starter. A lot can happen in 65 years.

 

[NailheadBob]

Look in service manual page 10-41 paragraph 10-35 B engine will not stop cranking

and page 10-42 paragraph 10-36 B checking pinion clearance.

 

possibly this will help

 

Bob

[FireballV8]

On 1/28/2023 at 1:22 PM, 60FlatTop said:

I don't like the angle of the Bendix arm in its de-energized position. It looks like it could be on the wrong side of the collar.

 

When I went looking for a picture I found this shot from the 1958 shop manual. Now I wonder if you have the right starter. A lot can happen in 65 years.

 

Hi Bernie

That post is someone else for a 53 Buick. You are correct the starters are different. Mine looks like the one in your diagram.

Thank You

 

[FireballV8]

On 1/28/2023 at 7:38 PM, NailheadBob said:

Look in service manual page 10-41 paragraph 10-35 B engine will not stop cranking

and page 10-42 paragraph 10-36 B checking pinion clearance.

 

possibly this will help

 

Bob

Thanks Bob

I had read the section about the relay, but did not see paragraph 10-9, I will try to items mentioned in that paragraph.

Thank You

[Century Eight]

I had a similar issue on my ‘50 Super after the carb was rebuilt.  We never touched the starter, but mostly I believe it was due to a dirty carb solenoid switch.  The carb is fine now but when this was all happening, I talked to some of my expert Buick friends and they said the first thing to try is to make sure the carb switch is clean.  It wasn’t.  After cleaning it up, the starter worked fine.  It didn’t have a problem until we disturbed everything when we went to clean the carb.  It also happened  a few times with a week battery.  After the cleaning, and a new battery it stopped happening. UNTIL just the other day, it happened again, but I attribute that to the battery going down again.  It needed a charge, and when all charged up, it doesn’t seem to happen, so I would attribute that to low voltage, and/or, a dirty carb solenoid switch.

 

The first time it happened, it made a terrible noise and I wasn’t sure what was happening.  Really startled me.  But disconnecting the battery or turning the ignition to the off position, made it stop.

[FireballV8]

Hi Everyone

I want to thank everyone for the tips. The issue is still not resolved, but it has been determined to be an issue with the Bendix gear getting stuck on the flywheel, which still activates the solenoid since the Bendix gear will not go back to disconnect the solenoid. 

 

I am now trying to figure out the right Bendix gear for the 58 Buick. Does anyone know how many teeth are on 58 Bendix gear?

 

Thank You

 

Steve

[NailheadBob]

Number of gears on bendix

 

AND length of gears on bendix

 

Friend of mine Frank had bendix gear issues on a 1957 Buick

 

Bob

[FireballV8]

1 hour ago, NailheadBob said:

Number of gears on bendix

 

AND length of gears on bendix

 

Friend of mine Frank had bendix gear issues on a 1957 Buick

 

Bob

Thanks Bob

 

These gears are very long over an inch, the others I have seen are about 1/2" in length, so both the number and length are an issue. 

 

Steve