1929 Buick Coolant foaming problem.

[maxinvan]

I have a 1929 Buick STD (29-25X) I am having no end of problem trying to keep the coolant in.  It will run perfectly at low RPM (under 30MPH) but when leaving town and trying to push her up over 40 MPH the radiator will start to foam out under the cap.

Here's what I have done:

- Removed the head, it looked great checked it and block with a straight edge - all good, Pulled the valves cleaned the surface and valve seats and chambers with a wire brush on a drill looking for cracks - none visible, lapped all valve seats and double checked for cracks - none visible. Replaced with copper gasket using copper spray, new head bolts torqued to 60PSI (re-torqued 3 times)

- Fitted a 160F thermostat, (none previously fitted) checked all hoses and lines, flushed the radiator - all good.

- Filled radiator with tank water (no acid rain here) and Type B coolant additive.

- Ran the motor, perfect - until we got on the road, temp goes up to boiling, thermostat opens - cools down immediately - thermostat shuts - goes up to boiling - thermostat opens - continuous cycle.

SO - Recieved advice, pulled the thermostat and drilled a bigger hole in it in place of the little jiggle hole.

- Relaced thermostat and water, this stops the hot and cold cycling but foaming at high speed still occurs.

SO - Even though my new water pump packing (PTFE recommended by local machine shop) was working perfectly and water is visibly circulating I now pull the water pump. I find the 6 impellor fins to be near perfect but do see some pitting on the back plate, one spot quite deep which I chip out with a chipping hammer, treat and paint, I do not attempt to fill it because I did not thing any filler would hold, and I did not think it bad enough to cause a problem (may be wrong). Cleaned any rust lumps out of the water pump piping both sides and on the motor, made new gaskets and refitted.

Still the problem remains and I am at my wits end, any suggestions that are helpful would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

[Larry Schramm]

25 minutes ago, maxinvan said:

SO - Even though my new water pump packing (PTFE recommended by local machine shop) was working perfectly and water is visibly circulating I now pull the water pump. I find the 6 impellor fins to be near perfect but do see some pitting on the back plate, one spot quite deep which I chip out with a chipping hammer, treat and paint, I do not attempt to fill it because I did not thing any filler would hold, and I did not think it bad enough to cause a problem (may be wrong).

 

I would reconsider using PTFE packing.  There has been a lot of discussion between PTFE and Graphite packing.  Those in the know seem to lean towards graphite as is will cause less wear on the water pump shaft.

 

As of the radiator being "good", from experience with your issues you probably still need a new radiator. 

 

The only other thing that I could think of is you might be sucking air on the inlet side of the water pump.

Edited November 27, 2022 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[maxinvan]

With regards to the radiator - it was replaced by the previous owner who is a friend, the car has done virtually no miles since it was replaced (at great expense).

In relation to the PTFE packing.  I did try the graphite but found it was not as effective as the PTFE at sealing the shaft, as I say a very well respected local engineering shop recommended the PTFE as a better product, I have used it for over 6,000 miles in my 1929 Chevrolet six, and it's the only thing that is half successful in my 1912 Flanders 20.

[edinmass]

Foaming is mostly caused by sucking air. Remove and plug the grease cup or fitting to seal it. Drain the coolant and put water in it with 4oz of cutting oil. Cutting oil won’t foam. If you drive it and it still pushed water, most likely a restricted radiator. There are a hundred other things to check, but the cutting oil is the quickest test. 

[maxinvan]

Thank you edinmass, I have been wondering about the addition of miscible machine oil (cutting oil) in stopping the foaming, I also read somewhere in this forum of a fellow using carpet cleaner defoamer, and another fellow using agricultural spray tank defoamer. 

This old post on here from someone nearly twenty years ago somewhat put me off the cutting oil (although my dad used it all the time) 

"Quote" I bought my 1922 Paige from a gent who was a soluble oil obsessive, and it took me days of Better Living Through Chemistry (multiple flushes, multiple flushing agents) to remove the mud/sludge it forms with small debris particles (use a stocking toe in top tank, better than Gano--see my other posts on that). Beyond that, soluble oil coats the outside cylinder walls and inhibits heat transfer.

[edinmass]

You can also flow test the radiator in place if your willing to rig something up.

[Bloo]

49 minutes ago, maxinvan said:

Quote" I bought my 1922 Paige from a gent who was a soluble oil obsessive, and it took me days of Better Living Through Chemistry (multiple flushes, multiple flushing agents) to remove the mud/sludge it forms with small debris particles (use a stocking toe in top tank, better than Gano--see my other posts on that). Beyond that, soluble oil coats the outside cylinder walls and inhibits heat transfer.

 

Well if you don't want to do that, you could drain some of the coolant out of the car, heat it up to 200F, and beat the snot out of it with an eggbeater as shown in this thread: https://forums.aaca.org/topic/375509-bloos-not-quite-scientific-antifreeze-foaming-test/ . You'll have to forgive me for not knowing what Type B coolant additive is. That is not a term I have heard used up in my neck of the woods. Whatever your coolant is, that test done on a sample drained from your car should sort out whether the foaming is the coolant's fault.

 

I wouldn't be scared of soluble oil. I know some people think it impedes heat transfer. Through the 1960s or so, "rust inhibitor and water pump lubricant" that was really just soluble oil was used with water in the summertime around here because heat transfer was thought to be better than with ethylene glycol. I was still doing this on a couple of cars in the 80s. I never heard anyone even postulate that it might be screwing up cooling efficiency until the 2010s, despite widespread use in the old days. Your mileage may vary.

 

But first, I would check the car with a "block tester", a sort of pump thing that uses a blue liquid to check for CO2 in the air above the coolant. Get the coolant hot but not boiling, and suck some of the air in the top of the radiator through the tester. It should not turn yellow. I know you looked for cracks. Sometimes they don't show.

 

PTFE is the generic name for Teflon, and it didn't even exist when these water pumps were made. It is highly unlikely that they could need it to work properly. Packing type pumps need to leak a little or the shaft will burn. The rub is that if it leaks too much, the shaft will suck air and foam up the coolant. It should be wet if you put your finger under the packing nut.

 

P.S. I would not shy away from any flow test @edinmass suggests just because the radiator is new. There have been multiple cases posted in this forum where a radiator was new but the wrong sort of core material was used resulting in insufficient flow and overheating.

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Cutting oil has been run it millions of cars without causing any heat transfer issues. But it will freeze.

[EmTee]

Flow restriction aside, does the radiator hold pressure?  I would plug the hose fittings, filler and overflow and rig one of the plugs with a tire valve stem (Schrader valve).  Pressurize the radiator to 5 ~ 7 psi and see if it holds.  If air leaks out, air will be sucked in and foaming coolant will be the result.

[31nash880]

The thread mentioned above by bloo is quite good and relevant . Would recommend checking it out.

[critterpainter]

What lower hose do you have? original is two short hoses with a length of pipe between the 2 hoses.  I have have seen a long hose used to replace the pipe.   If the hose is slightly weak and the radiator restricted then the hose may collapse restricting the water flow even more and allowing the water pump to suck air through the gland packing.  

[maxinvan]

Thank you for the interesting and informative replies, I do not believe the radiator is in any way at fault, but will check it further. The only thing I can think of is cavitation in the water pump. From Penrite: Type B coolants contain only inhibitors for rust, corrosion & cavitation. They DO NOT contain any Anti-Freeze/Anti-Boil emulsions. Type B coolants will keep your cooling system from rusting and deteriorating.

The radiator has quite recently been re-cored with a modern High Flow core it was an excellent job utilising the original upper and lower tanks, the original form of lower hose is used - a length of steel tube joined to the tank and water pump by a short hose. The top hose is a simple length of hose which has the thermostat located inside the radiator housing at the top of the hose. 

My friend, mechanic and vintage car restorer Ian visited the Buick today, he went through most everything mentioned in the answers here, We went for a run and although we suppressed the foam with an antifoam and the car did not overheat, the bubbling in the radiator is just too bad. Fortunately there is absolutely no trace of coolant in the oil. So I have stripped her down, removed the overhead gear and head bolts (which were very well sealed with Loctite PTFE high temp thread sealer) All ready for the lift off tomorrow (I am old and it's bloody heavy) Engineering firm will test the head later this week. The leak 'must' surely be somewhere in the head, even though I checked it carefully after I pulled it last time the problem must simply not be visible to the naked eye. I do not see how it could be a problem with the block.

[edinmass]

You should chemical test the radiator for HC’s and CO2. It’s definitive for a pressure leak. It’s unlikely from what you say. I would not pull the head unless you have combustion gasses in the top tank. It’s a 90 percent chance that the issue is the pump drawing air……….if the thermostat isn’t factory remove it. The system worked well when new, and had reserve capacity factored in. 

[Dave39MD]

I am lucky to have been going through the exact same problem with a 31 Chevrolet. I had no foaming with water and oil and have foaming even with the anti freeze recommended by Bloo to be low foaming in his tests.

 

The test kit Ed mentions can be had at Harbor Freight for a reasonable price. I had no combustion gas in the coolant.

 

It never runs hot. I did replace the head gasket due to a compression leak between 5 and 4. Replaced the water pump shaft and packing thinking air was getting in but it still foams. Put a new high capacity core between the old rad tanks and I am using the metal elbow in the lower hose. I have just about run out of things to replace or try so I am hoping this thread will give me a new idea or two.

 

I would run the water and oil year round but there is a slight chance my shop will get below 32 and cause freeze damage if for some reason I could not drain it in time.

 

Thanks for posting this question here, I posted my problem over on the VCCA forum.

 

Dave

[maxinvan]

I have now taken the 29 Buick head to Jacobsen's for crack, pressure testing and milling, Jacobsen's principal Allan Walker commented that the head certainly appears fine, but maybe there is a pin hole or invisible crack, if so he'll find it.

I have also removed the radiator and will take it to the radiator works tomorrow. In the meantime the block is filled with water with 2 and 5 piston down to see if there is any water droplet in the bore which would indicate a pinhole caused by internal water jacket corrosion, I believe this is unlikely because the bore appears like new and water leakage here would cause some trace if water in the oil, and there is not.

The last head gasket was sealed with a heavy coat of copper spray, upon removal there was no obvious leakage of the gasket. 

I have a new (old stock) gasket from Olsen's gaskets. 

I now must wait for the report on the head from Jacobsens.

[Grimy]

When I acquired my 1934 Pierce 8 in 2006, it had a recent overhaul, block boiled out, rebuilt water pump with modern seals, and new radiator core, and a 50% EG coolant solution.  On a ~500 mile-each-way trip to our meet in OR, I was losing almost a gallon of coolant between pit stops every 2 hours at highway speeds (55 mph).  Afterwards I performed numerous tests without identifying an issue, and finally, on the recommendation of a friend, went to distilled water plus Pencool 2000 (a big-rig additive with anti-cavitation and anti-corrosion qualities but no anti-freeze protection--Pencool 2000 for no anti-freeze, Pencool 3000 for systems using anti-freeze).  For the last 15 years and 17,000 miles, I top off with only 6-8 oz of coolant (pre-mixed distilled + Pencool carried in a 1-gallon jug) every 600-700 miles.  In the SF Bay Area, I don't need anti-freeze protection, but other Pierce owners in states like Michigan put a 50% anti-freeze solution in for over-winter storage, then drain and flush for the driving season, running the same distilled + Pencool.

 

EG anti-freeze (green, if you can trust colors these days) has a tendency to foam in UNpressurized systems like ours, affecting some cars worse than others.  I am told that *low-silicate* EG anti-freeze is less likely to foam in an unpressurized system, but I haven't needed to try it based on my climatic conditions.  I use that mix in all my cars, along with a stocking filter in the radiator top tank.  On the every-few-years fall tour which may see overnight temps fall below freezing, I add only enough anti-freeze to accommodate the predicted temp + a comfortable margin.

 

The anti-corrosion agents in Pencool work very well:  upon changing radiator hoses for old age, the radiators have remained sparkling clean.  I have no affiliation with Pencool (formerly Nalcool) and am merely a very satisfied customer.  I buy through Amazon as I haven't found any retail suppliers locally.

 

[edinmass]

George, having been around when the good lord invented water gives you a distinct advantage over us people who are only as old as the dinosaurs of the cretaceous period. While we are on the subject; how loud was the Big Bang? 🤔

Edited November 29, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Grimy]

9 minutes ago, edinmass said:

George, having been around when the good lord invented water gives you a distinct advantage over us people who are only as old as the dinosaurs of the cretaceous period. While we are on the subject; how loud was the Big Bang? 🤔

Loud enough that I wear hearing aids these days....

[maxinvan]

Thank you grimy for a very well constructed and informative post, I very much appreciate it. In the event that Jacobsens do not find a leak in the head I will refit it and attempt to find Pencool 2000 here (down under) I do see that Penrite Radiator corrosion inhibitor (available here) states it contains an ant foam agent to help protect against cavitation.             

[Grimy]

8 minutes ago, maxinvan said:

Thank you grimy for a very well constructed and informative post, I very much appreciate it. In the event that Jacobsens do not find a leak in the head I will refit it and attempt to find Pencool 2000 here (down under) I do see that Penrite Radiator corrosion inhibitor (available here) states it contains an ant foam agent to help protect against cavitation.             

That Penrite may well do the job for you.  Consider running plain water (distilled or de-ionized) initially after the engine is reassembled and if satisfactory, drain off enough to add the prescribed quantity of additive.  Also, be sure to keep cold coolant fill level just over the core (i.e., allow plenty of room for expansion).  On the highway, it is possible to create a siphon if an expanding coolant (overfilled) is pushing out the overflow.

 

On my 1934 Pierce, the fill is on a neck under the hood at the top of the radiator, so I have to top off only when the coolant is hot--with the engine running.

[maxinvan]

The 29 Buick radiator is open to atmosphere as all early radiators were, unfortunately Buick fitted the bayonet Type 'toilet seat' cap which is not a sealed cap, it is impossible to fit an alternative sealed cap because the stylised radiator shell is well above the radiator top. Hence when the foaming occurs it goes all over the car and windscreen.😜. There is a recess in the shell around the radiator cap with a small hole each side, it seems the idea is that when there is too much expansion of coolant for the pipe inside the neck to handle it's supposed to vent the extra under the cap. Avery poor arrangement indeed, Oh for a proper screw on cap like my other vintage and veteran cars.

PS. It seems Pencool 2000 is out of stock almost every where.

Edited November 29, 2022 by maxinvan (see edit history)

[Grimy]

Is there not an overflow hole and vertical tube just below the neck?

[maxinvan]

Yes grimy this is the overflow pipe I mentioned inside the neck. I fail to understand why Buick thought it necessary to give it extra overflow from the cap.

[zepher]

6 hours ago, Grimy said:

When I acquired my 1934 Pierce 8 in 2006, it had a recent overhaul, block boiled out, rebuilt water pump with modern seals, and new radiator core, and a 50% EG coolant solution.  On a ~500 mile-each-way trip to our meet in OR, I was losing almost a gallon of coolant between pit stops every 2 hours at highway speeds (55 mph). 

 

Your Pierce did puke quite a bit of coolant when we stopped on our way through the Cascades that meet.

I certainly hope none of the coolant hurt the paint.

Your Silver Arrow is a beautiful car and we couldn't run off an leave you in our Pierce.

[Grimy]

5 minutes ago, zepher said:

 

Your Pierce did puke quite a bit of coolant when we stopped on our way through the Cascades that meet.

I certainly hope none of the coolant hurt the paint.

Your Silver Arrow is a beautiful car and we couldn't run off an leave you in our Pierce.

Yep, it was driving me crazy, but no problem these last 15 years!  Paint not hurt, only my pride.  Found a couple of other mis-done things, like the plugs with 0.015 gaps that got corrected first night at the Meet. 

 

The Big Adventure was when the generator pulley sheaves separated from the hub on I-5 northbound and the Startix tried to engage--at 1:30 on a Sunday afternoon!  Removed pulley, went 3 miles east to Hwy 99 near Orland, looked for a retail place with a home on it where someone might be there--to get a referral.  On the second stop we got lucky:  Propane dealership with house, 83-yr-old father and 60-yr-old son were watching baseball on TV and had shop not visible with 1950s Cads and both MIG and gas welding equipment.  Wouldn't take offered money, just said, "Please bring it by for us to see if you have time."  We certainly did so.  Would have been up the proverbial creek if this had not been in a rural area....

[maxinvan]

Although we have not yet discovered the reason for the gas leak into the coolant, crack testing has shown cracking under the valve spring seats running outwards from the valve guides. These cracks are not repairable according to Jacobsens, and mean the head has most probably been cooked and is pretty much U/S. However they will continue with the pressure test to attempt to find the reason for the coolant bubbles, if they don’t find anything else, I will replace the head with the new gasket so that we can use the car while we search for another cylinder head. The block has been filled with water to check for any leakage through the cylinder walls for the past 2 days, fortunately no leaks (water droplets form around any pinhole) were discovered in the block.

so - any Aussies out there with a usable STD 29 Buick head?

[Mark Shaw]

Try here:

29 Buick -- Home

 

[maxinvan]

Yes, I have written to Bill, hopefully he will put my search for a good 29-25 STD Cylinder head in the next newsletter.

 

[Dandy Dave]

Glad to see it looks like you found your problem. On testing radiators, A local junkyard I have gone to for over 40 years had a water tank that we would put the whole radiator in. We would test it with around 15 LBS or air pressure. If it did not leak air we figgured it would not leak fluid. The cracks you found in the head may not leak fluid but they could suck air. The pump will alway try to move whatever is easier. 

[maxinvan]

Yes, exactly so! There are a number of hairline cracks, making repairs impossible, the cracks run across the head into the head bolt holes on one side to the pushrod holes on the other and no doubt down the holes also, making any repairs impossible.

Jacobsens milled the head and I replaced it with a very expensive new head gasket, I then used Rislone Head repair and then a couple of other highly recommended additives but although I slowed the leaking it still sucks air. Let's hope I can find a good 29/30 std Head.

[brasscarguy]

I always thought that it was a common issue with Buick owners, not the cars. I have a friend with 2 many Buicks and he still foams at the mouth when he gets around an old Buick.

 

just sayin'

 

brasscarguy

[arcticbuicks]

i agree with the 'block exhaust gas tester " ,narrows the problem down before doing work ,but, can still be used anytime like with persistent  problem....cheap to buy and easy to use