1913 Model T will not start and run

[nickg112]

I have a 1913 Model T. The vehicle was restored years ago and has not been started for a long time. I have not been able to start it. This is what I have done so far:

·         Cleaned out fuel system including gas tank, fuel lines and carburetor.

·         Cleaned spark plugs and set gap.

·         Checked and tested Buzz Coils. I have a tester.

·         Checked for spark at spark plugs. Sparks good.

·         Primed engine before starting and the engine seems to be getting fuel

·         The car had a small 12V (lawn mower type) battery that I replaced with same. Battery used for sparking coils only.

·         Trying to stat car in Bat position

Results with starting:

1.       Engine does not make any noise when cranking. It does not sound like it wants to start even though it is getting fuel and spark. No roll over sound.

2.       I can crank engine, but it cranks hard. Feels like I have a lot of compression. I believe the engine was rebuilt.

3.       I did try a little starting fluid in each cylinder to assure it is getting fuel. Same results no engine roll over and it will not start.

4.       Tried raising rear of car with jack stands and making sure car is in neutral. No luck starting.

5.       I have changed oil and I put a little oil in each cylinder.

I am stumped. Does anyone have any ideas on what I can try or what I may be doing wrong? I have had Model Ts before, but this is the first one without electric start.

[mikewest]

TOW START IT . Sounds like it should run.

[JFranklin]

Are all the coils buzzing loudly at the proper time? Did you check the compression? 

[mikewest]

Give it a tow, if it starts ,it will give you a chance to make adjustments . 

[Steven Meixner]

Like JFranklin said, is it sparking at proper time. On early camshafts it is possible to have the timer contact 180 degrees off.

[nickg112]

 I think my timing may be off as is suggested in responses. I am not sure how to do this. Can you reference this procedure somewhere?

Also, I believe I have a lot of compression. Car is hard to crank but easy once I pull a plug. Any help on timing is appreciated.

 

[JFranklin]

A quick test would be to remove the plugs and set #1 grounded on the block and with the ignition on, stick your thumb into #1 with your left hand and pull the crank with your right hand until you feel compression and then see if there is spark at the same time.

Edited September 15, 2022 by JFranklin (see edit history)

[Gary W]

The simple way is to remove #1 spark plug and lay it on a head bolt next to the spark plug hole. With the key off and the gas shut off, parking brake set, rotate the engine while looking at the valves and piston. A flashlight helps. When you see both valves closed and the piston coming up towards top dead center you know that the cylinder is nearing the end of the compression stroke. Using a non – metallic tool, (like a plastic stir stick), you can feel as the piston passes top dead center and begins to move downward. The point where the piston is moving downwards is when the spark should happen with the timing lever all the way up. Once you see what is happening and understand when the spark should occur you can turn the key on and check to see when the spark plug fires on Battery.

 

You should be hearing the coils buzz as you hand crank the motor.  Firing order 1-2-4-3...  sometimes the wires get crossed at 3 and 4.

[nickg112]

I have looked at the two suggestions and this is what I found:

• In every case when I was at top dead center the correct number buzz coil sparked
• We  saw cross arcing on the firewall terminals as follows:
  • number 1 terminal had no cross arcing
  • number 2 terminal cross arced to the magneto terminal
  • number 3 terminal cross arced to number 4 terminal
  • number 4 terminal cross arced to the battery terminal

I was only able to see this cross arcing when we landed and stopped at top dead center in the bat position. Normal cranking and not stopping at TDC, the cross arcing is not seen.

So it looks like the problem is identified. Not sure why or what is causing the problem. Any ideas? Thank you for any help

[JFranklin]

You might need a better coil box or commutator, or at least find out what is going on inside them.

Edited September 18, 2022 by JFranklin (see edit history)

[Steven Meixner]

JFranklin is right on again. I'd clean the timer looking for metal filings, and clean,  and remove all the coils and look for carbon tracks inside the coil box.

 

[nickg112]

Today I Checked buzz coils and timer visually. Cleaned up all contact points on coils and coil box. Repaired one broken wire at timer. Oiled Timer.

 

Still see arcing on coils between coil 3 and 4. Number 4 coil will buzz randomly as I crank the car: Number 4 will buzz at the same time as number 1,2 or 3 buzz.

 

I moved coils in different positions in box: 1 to 4 and 4 to 1. Moving coils did not change outcome. Number 4 coil position still showed arcing and also randomly buzzed when other coils buzzed. So number 4 coil position is the issue and not the coil itself.

 

I also tried 3 coils only with nothing in the 4 position. 1,2,3 then worked corectly

 

Is this outcome telling me that my timer is the issue?

[JFranklin]

It could be frayed/crossed wires in the timer harness. A ground is supplied to make the coils buzz. ground each one at a time to see what happens

Edited September 20, 2022 by JFranklin (see edit history)

[nickg112]

Thank you for the information JFranklin.

Could you please clarify for me? Where do I specifically ground? How am I grounding? What am I expecting to see?

[JFranklin]

Run a wire from the engine metal to the commutator wire one at a time and the corresponding coil should buzz. if you get cross buzz remove the wires from the coil box insulators and try the same test and see if you get a different outcome.

[nickg112]

Thank you  for the information JFranklin.

• I did not get any cross buzz when I ran a wire one at a time from the engine metal to the commutator wire. Each coil buzzed individually with no cross buzz.
• Even though I did not get a cross buzz, I still did part 2 from the coil box insulators to engine ground. Each coil again buzzed individually with no cross buzz.

Seems like this test would say it is in the timer harness or the timer itself. How do I know which? Or is it something else?

 

[JFranklin]

That test will say both the harness and the box are ok, as long as you did in fact test the wires. Look at the commutator.

[nickg112]

Thank you

I am sure that I tested correctly. When I look on Langs and Snyders site, I do not see a commutator that looks like mine. My cap is different. What do you think my next step should be?

[JFranklin]

Remove the cap and look inside.

[nickg112]

I actually did that. The inside of the cap looks good. No metal shavings or rust. Not sure what to look for in the mating parts.

[JFranklin]

How about a photo of yours since you said it doesn't look like what is available?

[nickg112]

I may have misspoke. I see commutators that looks similar but not exactly the same so I’m not sure which one to buy. Do I replace the cap as well as the rotor pin and retainer? Or do I adjust and clean? The parts look good to me. Three photos attached to show what I have.

[mikewest]

If the car ran when parked, and it has gas, oil and spark, tow the damn thing .It will most likely start up within 10 ft. What is there to loose??? 

[Jeff Spear]

Are you sure it's sparking after tdc compression stroke not exhaust? It should light right off with what you are describing. Jacking up the rear may ease cranking it if the high gear clutches are dragging a little from sitting. 

I start out two turns out on the mixture, at least 1/2 throttle, timing retarded, Pull the choke wire and crank it through 2 or thee intake cycles fuel should then be dripping from the carb release choke pull it once and it should be running. You probably know all that but thats the base line I use on an unknown car.  I am also assuming you know safe cranking process.  

 

Like others suggested id tow it and play with spark fuel during and see if it will run. Better than cranking your butt off or getting your butt kicked by the crank. 

[nickg112]

Well, I ordered a new Anderson Timer, cam seal, timing gauge, etc. I installed today. Same results. Will not start.

I did find this interesting: I made sure that the number 1 piston was just starting the downstroke, made an adjustment on the 1/4 inch rod to fit properly at that point. I did a double check with the gage that I purchased. For some reason the gage would put the rod in a different position. So now I am not sure whether to use the gage or my initial adjustment. 

When you look at the photos, I made a black mark on the gauge where the rod would be located if I used the gage. That is a big difference. 

I have not made any progress and am unable to start the car. I do not get a sound, backfire or anything resembling a start. I did try jacking up the rear end. I prefer not to tow start.

[Bloo]

I'm gonna repeat what @Jeff Spear said. You are on TDC, but are you absolutely sure you are on TDC of the compression stroke? The correct spot only comes up every other turn of the crank.

 

It might be on TDC and firing #1 when it should be firing #4.

 

I'd take the plugs out, except #1, but loosen #1. Crank by hand (only way I guess in 1913) with the ignition off, and when #1 hisses, run it on up to your TDC mark and stop. Your timer should be firing #1.

 

Edited October 30, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[mikewest]

Does it Fire or even try??? or just nothing.

[mikewest]

The point that bothers me is this is a old restored running driving car  when parked. They dont jump time  just setting. If it was running fine when parked, has spark now, Id be inclined to think its a fuel problem.... lack of getting any. Ive sqirted oil in the cylinders  to seal they up also. If the cylinders are dry , she will suck better with some lube. Ive said all along , give it a tow. 

[nickg112]

It doesn't even make an attempt to start. I did put the car in Neutral and put it on blocks. It does turn a little easier. I was thinking it could be fuel problem so I tried putting a little fuel in each cylinder. Still nothing. I previously tried a little oil in each cylinder. Nothing again. I really do not want to tow it. Thanks for any help

[mikewest]

Bring it to Livonia NY . Ill get it going and you can drive it home. Guaranteed. 

[1911 T Guy]

Look at picture of new timer, see the nut on pan bolt at 7:00 to new timer. That bolt should be the head of bolt not the nut. Bolt is upside down. That nut can hit timer terminal and cause a short. This may not be keeping it from running but will cause an out of time situation.

No starting sounds like low compression. Are valves closing? May need a valve job. Rings may need oiling to help seal. 

[mikewest]

15 hours ago, 1911 T Guy said:

Look at picture of new timer, see the nut on pan bolt at 7:00 to new timer. That bolt should be the head of bolt not the nut. Bolt is upside down. That nut can hit timer terminal and cause a short. This may not be keeping it from running but will cause an out of time situation.

No starting sounds like low compression. Are valves closing? May need a valve job. Rings may need oiling to help seal. 

This is exactly why Ive said give it a tow.  Pulling it will get the oil where it needs to be to seal it up and boost the compression. I guess he hasnt ever tow started anything.

[Jeff Spear]

As Steven Meixner, Myself, Bloo, and others have mentioned is it timed right?  you said it sparks at TDC but never confirmed its at the proper TDC (compression) if you did I'm sorry I missed where you said so. The early cams are easy to get the timer roller 180 out of time are you sure its timed right? 

If so another trick I've used is put a little 2 stroke  gas in each cylinder the oil helps ring seal whereas giving them a shot of straight gas after sitting can just further wash down the cylinders leaving you without enough compression to start. But it should still snort, spit, smoke, or something this is why I think you may be 180 out of time. 

This should be easy if you are sure its timed right tow the damn thing it may need higher cranking speed to overcome low compression after sitting once run it should then start easy. 

Or oil the cylinders up really good then use the 2 stroke gas to get it running but that's workout hand cranking it that much. 

I wish I was close I'd come over and help you get that sucker running. 

Jeff 

(edit) Maybe I am close I'm in the central Oregon area I didn't see your location. Glad to help if I'm within a 6 hr drive let me know I'll be there. 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Jeff Spear
Add Info (see edit history)

[nickg112]

Thanks for all of the help, I guess I did not answer the question directly. Th.e car is at TDC. I verified today. I added a little 2 stroke gas in each cylinder. The car will not pop or sputter when cranked. Cranking seems very hard. I remove all plugs and the car cranks very easy.

I am absolutely stuck on what to do next. I have rebuilt the carburetor and put in a new timer. Buzz boxes have been set with a tester/ setter that I purchased. I am using a new 12V lawn mower type battery

 

[JFranklin]

When you are cranking do you hear the coils buzz one after another?

[Jeff Spear]

Ok but you can be at TDC exhaust stroke did you verify that it is at TDC compression stroke? Sorry to beat that question to death but id hate to move on with help only to later find you were on TDC exhaust all this time because the timer roller was 180 out.  Re the hard cranking my t's have never really cranked easy meaning I can't spin the crank more than one cylinder 1/4 turn at a time with a sharp pull up. 

You said it cranks easy with the plugs out so to me this is a good sign that you should have enough compression to run.  You could still have some drag from the high gear clutches contributing to the hard cranking I know you said its easy with the plugs out but every little bit helps. When a T has been sitting I like to jack up the rear and block the front wheels then leave it in neutral no brakes when cranking set the brake lever in the middle so the rear can turn free this will make a difference.  

[nickg112]

In TDC Compression

 

Coils all buzz with corresponding plugs

[JFranklin]

It only takes spark, compression, and fuel at the right time to run, so you are missing one or more of these.

[nickg112]

The only thing I have not checked is compression. It feels like I have plenty but not sure. I should get my adapter in a few days. Once I check it I will post results.

Thanks to all

[mikewest]

Take out all four plugs and record the compression 1-4. Next use your squirt oil can and give each cylinder  4-5 shots of motor weight oil (20 or 30 weight). Then check the compression and record what you find 1-4. Lastly post your results.