Looking to have rear axles made!

[redbaron1930]

Hi;

  Does anyone have a source for getting rear axles made? I need axles for my 1910 EMF which the Hyatt bearings seem to have "machined" down about .030" mostly at the outer bearing. It seems as though the bearings and the housing are in good shape, so I am hoping a new set of axles will let this car last another 100 years! As always all comments and suggestions are welcome.

 

  Thanks

          Andy

[Larry Schramm]

1 hour ago, redbaron1930 said:

Hi;

  Does anyone have a source for getting rear axles made? I need axles for my 1910 EMF which the Hyatt bearings seem to have "machined" down about .030" mostly at the outer bearing. It seems as though the bearings and the housing are in good shape, so I am hoping a new set of axles will let this car last another 100 years! As always all comments and suggestions are welcome.

 

  Thanks

          Andy

 

Where are you located?  Is there a machine shop locally that you can check with to make the axles?

[cudaman]

Perhaps contact Chaffin's Garage and ask them who makes the Model T Ford axles for them, maybe the supplier would be interested in making a run of EMF axles if someone could supply a drawing and/or dimensions.

[redbaron1930]

Larry & Cudaman; Thanks, I live on Long Island so there is probably several machine shops I could check with ( I can make the drawing once I inspect the axles.)

 

[Larry Schramm]

Just now, redbaron1930 said:

Larry & Cudaman; Thanks, I live on Long Island so there is probably several machine shops I could check with ( I can make the drawing once I inspect the axles.)

 

 

Contact Dandy Dave.  He is out your way.  He is on this forum.

[Layden B]

Assuming the taper and other features of your axles are good, on Model T Fords a common solution is to replace the Hyatt bearing with modern bearings. Of course this may be a custom job for your EMF as the Ford kit available is likely to be a different size but here is a link to the Model T Ford conversion as an idea.

http://www.modeltford.com/item/2508ORB.aspx

Hope it helps.

[cudaman]

The OEM Hyatt bearings in my 1912 Flanders three speed rear axle are dimensionally identical to Model T Ford axle Hyatt bearings, I checked them when I had them out to work on the brakes.  I don't know about the bearings in the 1910 Flanders two speed rear axle.

 

I suspect, but can't be certain that the EMF 30 rear axle bearings are the same size as my 1912 Flanders, and therefore the same as Model T Ford.  Perhaps Daryl Kemerer or John Daly will see this thread and comment.

Edited August 8, 2022 by cudaman (see edit history)

[redbaron1930]

Cudaman;

   Do you remember the axle diameter at the bearing locations? My EMF is 1.250" in diameter. The axle housing I believe is 2.50" diameter. I certainly would be nice if I could make the Ford parts work!

 

[playswithbrass]

If your making new axles now is the time to upgrade to modern bearing. That’s what I did on our 09 EMF. Cheers pete 

[cudaman]

I couldn't easily measure the axle bearing surface on my Flanders at the time because I didn't take the axles out of the housing, I was mainly working on the brakes.  But I did pull out and inspect the Hyatt bearings while I had access.  They looked great, so I cleaned and re-greased them and put them back in.  Before I re-installed them, I did set them side-by-side with a set of spare Model T bearings I had and they looked dimensionally identical.

 

I just measured one of the new Model T Ford rear axle shafts that I have in my basement and the Hyatt bearing running surface is 1-1/16 inch diameter.  I have attached a drawing of the Model T rear axle shaft for reference.

 

If your EMF 30 axle shafts measure out at 1.25 inches in that area, then they are larger than Model T Ford and Flanders 20 shafts, sorry.

[Layden B]

The info in this book may be of interest!

[Dandy Dave]

I can make new axles for you. I will need your old axles and a rear wheel hub or rear wheel with the hub installed to get the tapper correct. My machine shop is located near Hudson NY. I've made axles for my 1915 Buick roadster, Larry Schramm's 1915 Buick truck. Also for a 1918 Columbia Ambulance that is at the old Rhinebeck Aerodrome which is a GMC chassis. All are still in service after many years of touring. The Columbia Ambulance is used weekly for shows at the Aerodrome. PM me if you're interested. Dandy Dave!

Edited August 9, 2022 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[redbaron1930]

I've visually inspected the bearings and they look OK, but does anyone know how tight the actual fit is on the axle when installed? i put a 1.250" bar through the bearings (only one at a time)and it fits well but not tight (rocks a bit), but I think this might be normal?

[cudaman]

Some minimal play is normal, the bearings should slip into place without having to be driven in.  An old Model T trick if you have the axle completely apart is to measure the diameter of each of the spiral wound rollers on each bearing and put the bearings with the largest rollers (least wear) on the outer position.  On a Model T, the inner bearings seem to get much less wear than the outer ones. 

[redbaron1930]

18 hours ago, playswithbrass said:

If your making new axles now is the time to upgrade to modern bearing. That’s what I did on our 09 EMF. Cheers pete 

Pete;

  Which modern bearings did you use?

[playswithbrass]

My notes from 20 years ago,rear axle bearings 6308R8R with homemade cups (cup is to space the od of the bearing to the Id of axle housing)axles were od ground to fit bearings.These are sealed bearing.

Side thrust at gear carrier. Torrington NTA2031 is the bearing and TRC 2031 is the race/shim

For what it’s worth pinion bearing —cup is 3320-bearing 346- thrust for pinion same as side thrust

Front wheel outer race is 1220 ,bearing 1280 both Timken 

inner race 2525 Timken,bearing 4t-2580 NTN

Front grease seal CR 23425

Gear lube is Esso Marvelube EP 9F

 

hope this helps cheers pete

Edited August 9, 2022 by playswithbrass (see edit history)

[cudaman]

When you have the Hyatt bearings out, take a good look at the hardened bearing sleeves in the axle housing.  The sleeves wear most at the top, where the weight of the car presses down onto the bearings.  If the sleeves are shot, that may be another reason to go with modern bearings.

 

I don't know about the EMF 30, but the sleeves in my Flanders 20 do not have a hole for the Model T Ford sleeve removal tool to fit.  That would have made removing the sleeves a bear, but luckily mine were in good shape (my car spent most of its life sitting in museums). 

 

Below are links to the Model T sleeves and the removal tool for reference.  You slide the tool inside the sleeve and turn it until the pin pops into the sleeve hole.  Then, you can turn the tool in the direction to make the sleeve slightly smaller in diameter so that it will slide out of the axle housing.  You do not have to remove the axle shaft to remove the sleeve with this tool.

 

https://www.modeltford.com/item/2509BQL.aspx

https://www.modeltford.com/item/2509QL.aspx

https://www.modeltford.com/item/2509SP.aspx

 

 

[redbaron1930]

The outer sleeves are worn badly, all the bearing rollers (on inner and outer) all measure right around .620". The axle and sleeve must be much softer than the bearing rollers. Seems like this outer bearing wear was caused by lack of lubrication, where the inners get a lot of splash from the ring gear. The sleeves do have a hole, but i am sure they are bigger than the Model t sleeves (2.50" installed diameter) so I'm not sure the tool will work with them.

[redbaron1930]

Pete;

   Do you remember how you got the housing sleeves out?

          Andy

[cudaman]

Andy, do you have a user manual and an illustrated parts manual for your car?  If not, email me at strangedude@att.net and I will send you electronic copies of the documents that I have, they are .pdf files. 

 

Andy, the .pdf file is 33 MB, too large for an email attachment.  I will try to figure out a way to split it up into smaller chunks so that I can send it in pieces.

 

Edited August 11, 2022 by cudaman (see edit history)

[playswithbrass]

Use a slide hammer

[redbaron1930]

7 minutes ago, playswithbrass said:

Use a slide hammer

I was thinking that, but was not sure how to grab it? it seems to be up against a flange.

[oldford]

If you decide to replace the hyatt bearings in your emf, I have 4 excellent ones. At least I think they are... The emf bearings are larger than Model T.

$50 each.

 

Frank

 

Andy, I just realized who you are. Not sure why the axles are in need of replacement, they were supposed to have been replaced about 15 years ago by the prior owner to me. If you need the bearings, you can have them...

 

Edited August 13, 2022 by oldford (see edit history)

[cudaman]

I earlier stated that I had visually compared the Hyatt bearings from my 1912 Flanders 20 three-speed runabout and my Model T Ford and they appeared identical.  Because my Flanders bearings were in good shape, I re-installed them and did not attempt to install Model T Ford bearings in their place.

 

I have since been able to obtain a copy of the Hyatt Roller bearing catalog covering the period from 1897 - 1916.  In it, the Hyatt part number for the Flanders 20 is listed as 19160 in all locations, whereas the Ford bearings are listed as part number 16080 for the RH side of the car and 16079 for the LH side.

 

I wonder why Ford specified different part numbers for the two sides, perhaps the rollers are wound in different directions?  After thinking about it more, I realized that the rollers are the same side-to-side, it's the outer sleeves that are a mirror image of each other side-to-side. 

 

In any case, the part numbers for Flanders and Ford bearings are not the same, so there must be some difference between them that isn't obvious from a visual inspection.

 

Update - I found the difference between Flanders and Ford bearing dimensions by looking at the detailed dimensions in the back of the catalog.

They both are 4 inches long and both use 1/2 inch rollers, but the Flanders bearing is designed to fit on a 1-1/8 inch axle shaft, whereas the Ford bearing is designed to fit on a 1-1/16 inch axle shaft.  So, a Ford bearing in a Flanders axle would be a tighter fit than intended.  Too small a difference for my feeble eyes to see! 

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by cudaman
Added scan of catalog page (see edit history)

[redbaron1930]

OldFord;

  Thank you for the offer................sent you a PM.

[Oldsoul58]

If your axles are good other than the wear where the bearings ride you could have the wear spots micro welded to a bit over sized and then take them to a machine shop and have them turned down to original size. I had that done to my king pins on a Hupmobile and they worked fine.

[JFranklin]

I have also heard of hard chrome to repair wear.

[redbaron1930]

I think the wear on the axles at the outer bearing is too severe for chrome, (wear is about .030" on diameter). The thing that concerns me about welding is having the axle warp since it is much longer than a king pin, but it might be an option. Right now I'm leaning toward a sleeve or a new axle. Upon more examination looks like the pinion gear is in bad shape (i'm surprised it even worked!) and on of the axle gears is a bit iffy.

[cudaman]

Any developments on this activity?

[redbaron1930]

On 10/22/2022 at 7:53 AM, cudaman said:

Any developments on this activity?

Cudaman; I found new ring and pinion gears, along with good sleeves for the outer bearings. Dandy Dave is making me axles, so once I have them I should be able to put it back together.

[cudaman]

For anyone else looking for EMF axle parts - someone on the E-M-F facebook group is selling (as of 6/19/2023) a batch of parts, including axle shafts.