Connecticut State home behind a 1925 Locomobile

[alsfarms]

I am looking for ownership and history of the large estate and home shown in the background behind the 1925 Locomobile.  Does anyone here know specific information on this residence? Update note: located in the greater Bridgeport Connecticut area.

Al

Edited July 26, 2022 by alsfarms
Clarity (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

My observations are that this picture was taken of a new or very near new, ordered from the factory 1925 Locomobile judging by the pristine lines, cleanliness, tire tread patterns shown on the spares and very clean and shiny wheels.  I wonder if the hood has ever even been unlocked and opened up.  Can anyone here make a run at colorizing this photograph?  This body is built by Demarest and is a 7 passenger Limousine.  I am hoping to learn about the home in the background then research and learn more about the Locomobile.

Al

Edited July 20, 2022 by alsfarms
clarity (see edit history)

[58L-Y8]

Here is a better look at the Locomobile and the mansion in the background.

[alsfarms]

Thank you for cleaning up this picture.  I am hopeful that one of the Connecticut resident among us will recognize the mansion and be able to share who owned and some information about the person that could afford this home and Locomobile.

Al

Edited July 26, 2022 by alsfarms
Clarity (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Here is an update, thankfully shared by another forum reader.  The estate and mansion behind the 1925 Locomobile was called Marina and was built by PT Barnum in the greater Bridgeport Conn. area. After the death of PT Barnum, in the early 1890's, a share of the Barnum fortune and the Marina estate passed to a grandson of PT Barnum.  I assume that it is this Grandson that had purchased the new  1925 Locomobile Limousine from the Locomobile factory, also located in Bridgeport, Conn.  Can anyone here direct me to the best source of information regarding the 1925 Locomobile 48 shown in the picture above and potential Conn. Vehicle records?

Al

[alsfarms]

Here is another update on this picture above of the PT Barnum estate called Marina.  I made the guess that a grandson of PT Barnum was likely the purchaser of the 1925 Locomobile Demarest Limousine.  After more study, it appears that the grandson Herbert, passed on before 1925 making him being the purchaser of the Locomobile impossible.  Next, I need to determine who in the Barnum/Seeley families had possession of the estate called Marina. At that point, I will try to determine if that family member was in fact the purchaser of the Locomobile Limousine or if the above picture is simply a staged publicity picture made by Locomobile to aid in making sales by show casing a high end offering in front of a high end home/mansion.

Al

[Walt G]

thank you for changing the name of the title of this thread from New York to Connecticut , certainly clears up a lot of confusion and hopefully will generate some more input/comments with information................. as real estate people today would perhaps comment  : location, location, location

[alsfarms]

Yet another update.  I have been in touch with a historical expert, (at the Bridgeport Public Library) for the Bridgeport area who was most kind to listen to my request for additional information regarding the Marina Mansion, the descendents of PT Barnum and lastly if any connection could be found about a Locomobile Limousine purchased by said Barnum family in 1925.  The lady historian was most kind and willing to assist me in my request for more information. She is also going to check with the Conn Department of Transportation and see if automobile license information is available for the year 1925.  The Bridgeport Public Library is certainly a public friendly facility.  Hopefully, in a couple of days, I will have a good update to share on the subject 1925 Locomobile Limousine and also more history of the Barnum Marina Estate.

Al

[1937hd45]

Many early Locomobile catalog and ad photos were shot in Seaside Park, I would think they would use large estates as a backdrop with out the owner buying a Loco. Bob 

[alsfarms]

Yes, This is a past time mystery.  Probably a 75 percent probability that the shown picture is simply a sales picture of a new Locomobile.  Still, these were custom built so there was likely very little rolling stock hanging around like the modern "cookie cutter" automobile industry, where cars are pushed out the door before they are sold.  I will do some additional digging to verify a few facts relating to the Marina Mansion, the Barnum family and lastly if there is a relationship to the pictured Locomobile.

Al

[1937hd45]

Have you asked the people at the P.T. Barnum Museum in Bridgeport for information, he was the mayor of that city and developed Iranistan. 

[alsfarms]

That is a good idea.  I will reach out to that organization and see if they know anything that they will share.

Al

[1937hd45]

The T in P.T. Barnum is for Taylor, his mothers madden name. I got a load of floorboards out of the Taylor homestead in Bethel when it was renovated, still have a few. P.T. was young when he walked or crawled on them. 

[alsfarms]

You have an interesting connection to PT Barnum for sure.  Were the floor boards Oak?

Al

[1937hd45]

On 7/29/2022 at 5:43 PM, alsfarms said:

You have an interesting connection to PT Barnum for sure.  Were the floor boards Oak?

Al

Pine, they may have had oak over them at some time. Wide pine was used in floors and walls in the pre plywood days. 

[prewarnut]

Al, I'm having a hard time deciphering the photo and where the car was placed. It seems that it could have been driven on the grass. I do believe pretty clearly that the vantage-point is to the northwest and so this is the southeast of Marina. That is also corroborated from other photos labelling it at the Barnum museum archives. It could be on a no-longer existing grass lot between Myrtle Ave and Park Ave. Here's what you probably need: a street address in order to get information from land records. They are searchable online but with a fee. The issue is what was the street address for Marina? I think I have some info which may help. Below is a close-up of a 1875 litho from when Barnum was mayor and owned Waldemere, his 3rd mansion. It is stated not to be to scale but it actually looks pretty close in terms of street layout. In the black and white photo we see him building Marina to the right of Waldemere, basically to the North which means the photo is taken looking west from Park Ave. Note he's got the largest house in town....Anyhow here's where the online info is wrong. It is stated that Marina is where the current Marina Hall at U of Bridgeport is located. I think that is wrong. Probably Marina was torn down and much after the dining hall was built. At any rate I believe the site was the current parking lot between Chaffee Hall and the very modest house at 365 University Avenue. Here's the clue, the litho. University Ave used to be called Park Place (see litho). On the litho Waldemere Ave no longer exists but a new Waldemere now exists 2 blocks south at Seaside Park (the northern border - off the page I show). On the litho the windy road below his estate running east to the entrance to the park at Broad Street is now roughly present day Linden Ave (more or less). Anyhow, his address was probably on Park Ave as the black and white photo seems to indicate but his north side was on Park Place. Yet, as you can see in the small attached photo below with view from the southwest, he has driveway approaches from almost all angles....Lastly in the 1925 photo there is an addition to the house so that may confuse things unless one looks closely. Hope this helps in some way.

 

Edited August 4, 2022 by prewarnut (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

I did speak with the curator of the Barnum Museum regarding who in the Barnum family owned the Marina Mansion after Grand son Herbert Seeley, who inherited the mansion, died in 1914.  The curator suggested that the other Barnum grandson Clinton Seeley, then took over ownership of the Marina Mansion.  I am waiting for a response from the Connecticut State Historical Library, in Hartford, to see if any automobile licensing records are in the archives for 1924-25-26.  I could then determine original ownership, by serial number of the 1925 Demarest Limousine and possibly if Clinton Seeley once purchased a Locomobile.  Does anyone else have hints or suggestions as I continue my search for historical information. Thanks Prewarnut for your assistance with property logistics and pictures.  Any help is appreciated.

Al

[alsfarms]

Here is another update on my search for information on the Barnum family, the Marina Estate and the 1925 Locomobile.  I spoke with the curator of the Connecticut State Library.  I was given some good information on other sources to search with and among.  Ancestry is one source, another source is the Library of Congress and yet another source is the Connecticut Digital Archives (CTDA).  I spent some time in the later and did find many good items but at this moment nothing of consequence that helps with my direct information needs.  The curator, of the Connecticut State Library was most animated and willing to assist with my information search needs.  I hope that he or one of his specialists will be able to get into the Connecticut Department of Transportation Archive records and share direct information on who was the original owner/licensee of the 1925 Locomobile by serial number.  Does anyone have additional suggestions that could help with my search?

Al 

[prewarnut]

You can also try the CT Historical Society at 1 Elizabeth Street in Hartford (it branches off Asylum Ave maybe 10 blocks west of Aetna). I went in maybe 3 decades ago when younger for a project I was interested in and they ran pretty strict whereby you couldn't bring in any writing instruments, had to use their pencils, only could write on paper so big, etc. Yet, they do have a repository of first source ephemera. I don't know if they would have the type of records you need but they are independant of the CT State library and would have a different library of material. I don't know if they can/will help online or by phone although I'm sure they could consider checking if they have anything on Locomobile, Barnum, Bridgeport, etc.

 

[alsfarms]

Update today.  I have heard back from the Connecticut State Library with several good links to information.  The best link so far is two passenger automobile registration archive record books from 1926.  If the 1925 Demarest Locomobile Limousine has lived most of it's life in the greater Bridgeport area, I should be able to locate the original registration, owner, plate number and also the serial.number.  each of the two books I reference, I believe, has about 750 pages.  So far I am on page 400 of the first book.  I have noted a few points of interest as I have hunted for Locomobile records on 1925 Locomobiles.  One point of interest, more that a few electric cars, two, lots of Willy's Knight and Stearns Knight cars, three, Cadillac had a real following, four, the oldest car, I have seen licensed in 1926 is a 1912 Locomobile 30 Torpedo.  The second oldest was a 1913 Pope Hartford.  Most of the cars were late teens and early 20's.  This means more folks by the mid 1920's were more interested in newer mor modern vehicles.  I did see three Simplex Crane Model 5 also and several Davis.  The search continues.

Al

[prewarnut]

   I presume the books are online? If so a great tool.

   I remain on a Locomobile "kick" and saw this regarding the Frederick Law Olmstead - designed Seaside Park, only a few blocks south of the photo. Credit is author Eric Lehman who I quote: "As the years passed more and more land was donated.  Much of the marshland to the west was reclaimed, incorporating Fayerweather Island into the park in 1911. People used the horse track to race their new cars, including the Bridgeport-produced Locomobiles. Today, the 375 acre park is on the National Register of Historic Places, and remains one of the only parks of its kind in the United States, a tribute to the foresight and planning of Bridgeport’s citizens."

   I find that interesting as I wonder if any ability exists to verify that Locomobiles actually raced near/in Seaside Park, or whether he took some creative license.

[alsfarms]

You pose an interesting question.  I was also referred to a series of early Bridgeport newspapers to see if I could glean any information relevant to the Barnum and Seeley families. I haven't dedicated time to read through the old papers yet but would read looking for race results also, that include Locomobile.  Did the have a schedule?  Yes the license books are on line which is a blessing for anyone needing to scrounge for information like me.

Al

[prewarnut]

   I spent some time looking for any known races in the Bridgeport Farmer or other CT papers and can't find any. In old aerial photos the oval racetrack is visible on the waterfront in front of Marina.

   I have an update for you. While some primary source info may be incorrect you probably need to look for the name Wilson Marshall. He apparently owned Marina, having married a niece of Barnum's. I have 4 clippings here. It is interesting to read the account that Barnum's 4th wife (much younger) left Marina to marry a rich foreigner who couldn't bear to live there because of the bronze statue of Barnum the city erected soon after his death. It was within eye distance from the south or east porch I believe. On a differnent note I found a 1915 ad for Locomobile in the Bridgeport paper which actually listed owners of Locomobiles as a testament (no privacy in that day I guess). I saw no Barnum name but at least A.L. Riker was listed. I didn't have the Marshall name and can look again but I figured while 10 years earlier than the limo it could suggest brand loyalty. Again hope this helps. (The dates to the clippings are 1895, 1934, 1915 (retrospectively back to 1895), and lastly 1918)

 

Edited August 6, 2022 by prewarnut (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Most interesting and thanks again for your sleuthing skills and how it may help me.  As I was pouring over 400 pages of license information, I did see that A Riker still licensed a Locomobile in 1926. I should have written down the exact information, but I think it was a 38 from 1916.  I will certainly add the Marshall name to my list of people to watch for.  Do you happen to know what year the Marshalls took possession of the Marina Mansion? The newspaper clipping shows June 19 but I don't see the year.

Al

Edited August 6, 2022 by alsfarms
Clarity (see edit history)

[prewarnut]

It's interesting as I haven't figured out the exact succession of owners of Marina. On the one hand it suggests Mrs. Barnum wanted "out" and was going to sell (as noted in the 1895 article) but that would have taken the house out of the family. Then there's the repeated statements online of Barnum's son owning it - but I'm not sure if that is only conjecture. Here we have pretty good evidence that Mr. Marshall, through marriage, owned it in the timeframe you are interested in. It looks from the articles that he had it from at least as early as 1918 (the last article) all the way to his death in 1934 (the second article in the list) so that broadly overlaps your 1925 target date. Also supposedly the Univeristy of Bridgeport got it in 1940 from the family but this would suggest either another owner from 1934 - 1940, or the 1940 date is incorrect, or somehow the house was not fully auctioned in 1934 as announced. Either way it shouldn't matter. I'm amazed this guy won a sold gold sailing trophy, met European royalty and then in the midst of WWI basically put his thumb in the eye of you-know-who and said he'd melt it down for Red Cross support. Now that's a patriot! Knowing that story I suppose he probably had two Locomobiles!

[alsfarms]

I am amazed at the skill you have delving into and understanding history.  Above you suggest the hint and refer to a Barnum son.  From what I gather, Barnum had only daughters, one of which died young and another rather fell out of favor.  This left two daughters, one of which married Seeley and had the two famous or infamous sons Clinton and Herbert.  Are you referring to Herbert who died in 1914 after a racous life and at a young age and had inherited Marina?  I have had one source suggest to me that the Marina Estate then went to Clinton, however I feel your information is more correct with the Marina property finally going to auction sometime between 1914 and 1918 at which time the Marshall fellow who is married to a Barnum niece purchased the property.  Do you know which Barnum daughter is the mother of the niece who married Marshall?  I have spent some early morning hours pouring over Licensing records and am now up to page 600 out of 750 pages in the first book.  Locomobile is certainly exclusive as I pour over these records. I did see that A Riker also owned three or four other vehicles to include a Flint and a Chevrolet as well as a couple more Locomobiles.  The search continues......

Al

[prewarnut]

   I know it's not Charles Barnum Read, he lived in a different house from 1892-1912 when he died. He was the grandson of PT Barnum's half brother. There's an obit where Clinton Barnum Seeley and Wilson Marshall were pallbearers however. It seems everyone in the neighborhood knew each other. Marshall is the guy you're looking for. I have evidence he was in the house as early as 1916. His son W.M. Jr. is noted below. His son graduated Yale, performed in some theater and then tragically died in an accident in England around 1918.

   This is from the Bridgeport Farmer from 3/25/1916.

 

Edited August 6, 2022 by prewarnut (see edit history)

[prewarnut]

   One last thing (I have to put this down for awhile). There's a WH Marshall who was president of ALCO around 1915 or 1916 but I believe this is a different man. I don't see a reference to Wilson Marshall's middle initial but ALCO was different than Locomobile... The more I find the more he is a notable international celebrity of the day. He had a few yachts. There should be a picture of his motor vessel at the Mystic Maritime Museum and possibly his sailing yachts. He defeated the Kaiser in 1905. He also won second place against him later - with a silver trophy. He probably melted the gold one as his son apparently was a lieutenant in WWI - not sure how he died but notices about that abound in the papers of different CT towns, May 1918. Marshall senior is frequently named in the papers in regard to sailing, the harbor, political events, his housekeeper, anything connected to him or someone he knows. I'm not sure he had or needed a day job....

[prewarnut]

Ok, I had to pick this up one more time today. Here's you're answer. Wilson Marshall married into the family. He married the granddaughter. So, W.M. had some bad luck quickly losing a bride and then his son....

From The Bridgeport Farmer 7/5/1910:

[alsfarms]

I am now curious as to who the wife of Wilson Marshall would have been at the time he purchased the Marina Mansion?  I would like to know the story behind Wilson Marshall.

Al

[alsfarms]

Update, I will be starting on the next 750 page book of Connecticut licensed passenger vehicles for 1926.  What a nice list of information available to the public to search for historical information on anything licensed in Connecticut in 1926!

Al

[1937hd45]

51 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

Update, I will be starting on the next 750 page book of Connecticut licensed passenger vehicles for 1926.  What a nice list of information available to the public to search for historical information on anything licensed in Connecticut in 1926!

Al

Could I get a link, I'd like to ID some cars that were in town around 1910. Bob 

[alsfarms]

Hello Bob,                                    Could you share your email address and I will share what I have.  I inquired of the Connecticut State Library specifically for the year 1926.  I plan to check with them on easier years also which I am sure they have.  What a terrific source of historical information to evaluate in the comfort of our own homes.

Al

Edited August 9, 2022 by alsfarms
Clarity (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Per the picture that started this thread, I have an update.  Two basic thoughts started this chat.  First, the shown picture of a 1925 Locmobile Limousine is an exact match to one now owned by me but in unrestored condition.  The seller had told me that his father, who bought the Locmobile many years ago and stored it, suggested that the Locomobile was a native to the greater Bridgeport area from new.  The second basic thought was that the new 1925 Locomobile could have been owned by a descendant of the owner of the Mansion in the back ground, (the mansion is the Marina Mansion owned and built by PT Barnum.  With these two bits of coincidental information, I decided to put both thoughts to the test.  I was able to track down an online digital digital record of all passenger vehicles registered in Connecticut in 1926.  I was assuming that if my Locomobile was ordered and bought new in Connecticut, for sure it would have been registered n 1926.  I will post my findings as follows:

I went page by page through both books of 750 pages each.  conclusion was that my Locomobile could be in the picture, but picture must be a publicity shot.  No descendant of PT Barnum was noted to have owned or registered a Locomobile in 1926, per the records.  My Locomobile was not found  with any owner.  (I don't feel the search engine is the best as I couldn't get it to repeat information that I located by visual evaluation).

Other possibilities of what was told me upon my purchase,  it is still possible that the Locomobile did spend most of its life in the greater Bridgeport area but was licensed new in a different state before coming back to Connecticut.  I did locate a sister Locomobile, that was registered in 1926 as a Limousine and with a serial number three digits newer than my Locomobile, however this Locomobile was registered as a 1924.  The 19000 series Locomobile has been identified as being the 1925 model year.  Potentially, the sister Locomobile may have been completed and delivered early enough for licensing in the later part of 1924.  Most other 19000 series Locomobiles are in fact classified as being in the 1925 Model year.  I am guessing that a car, of the stature of Locomobile, would not have been purchased and not licensed, with the thinking that if you could afford to order a new Locomobile you certainly would license it to make it strictly legal to be driven on the roads.  This is one more thought that indicates that my Locomobile must have been ordered and registered, when new, in another state.  My second guess would be New York or Massachusetts.  Does anyone here have any other of additional thoughts?

Al

Edited August 13, 2022 by alsfarms
Clarity (see edit history)

[30sclassics]

Wilson Marshall died March 29, 1934, and his obituary is listed in the Hartford Courant on March 30, 1934.  You might find some clues there.  He was buried in New York, next to his wife and son.  You also might try to find his will in Bridgeport; maybe, just maybe, he left a Locomobile to a relative or servant?

[prewarnut]

   In backtracking a few years to 1910 and before, I mentioned to Al that another Bridgeport map shows the Marina Mansion owned by Wilson Marshall on the 1910 map (along with the other newspaper testimony). I just came across proceedings of the CT Superior Court from 1900 which involves a suit regarding P.T. Barnum's will and the custodialship and inheritence of parts of it. In brief, P.T. donated quite a bit of money to various organizations in his will which was publicized in papers. I found it somewhere but don't have it handy. In essence $10,000 here, $5,000 there, $1,000, here, $500. there to: schools, universities, animal welfare organizations, Bridgeport Hospital (he was President of for a time), Bridgeport organizations, some of his servants, etc. Also $40,000. to his wife. After all of that the remainder was divided up mostly to children and grandchildren.  The 1900 court proceeding was between his daughter (plaintiff) and Wilson Marshall (administrator and defendant - he was the granddaughter's husband). The court found for the defendant. The case was this: After all the philanthropy the estate (real and financial) was to be divided. I think it may have been in 1/9ths. One of those parts went to the grand daughter Jessie B. Seeley who Marshall married. As she inherited before age 25, P.T. insisted her part (and similarly other young family members) be placed in trust to be adminstered, invested, etc until age 25, unless at age 25 the person was not of sound mind to make decisions. If not of sound mind the trust would continue and possibly pass to that person's heir. She was "supposed" to ask for her 1/9 at age 25 but didn't. She died in childbirth at age greater than 25. At this point her share was to go to her son. Since the son (the great grandson of P.T.) was under 25 it would need to stay in trust until he was 25. Except, the adminstrator Marshall argued that despite her not "claiming" at age 25 she, now he, should be able to have that part. The court agreed citing that there was no "claim" required on her part, but that the inverse would have needed to be shown by the plaintiffs that Jessie B was not of sound mind. This never happened and she was never doubted to not have sound mind so the court immediately remanded her part to her surviving husband. It was also noted that this didn't occur earlier over difficulty with physically dividing up the property, etc. Probably, but I haven't verified, it was felt to give Marshall Marina. I know he formed a trust for his young son Marshall Jr. with Clinton B. Seeley as co-trustees until he reached 25. He (Marshall Jr.) never did as he died in Britain during WWI of an "accident" probably during miltary training. Effectively the mansion was Marshall's from early on, though the period of this photo and until his death. See excerpt below:

 

[alsfarms]

Here is a response sent to me from the Bridgeport Public Library History group.  I am happy that they did research to determine information on PT Barnum, his descendants, the Marina Mansion and the relationship Locomobile may have had with the picture posted above.  Thanks to the Bridgeport Public Library!

 

Dear Alan,

 

Thank you for your patience in researching your various Locomobile queries. Regarding the photograph you mentioned that involves a Locomobile taken in front of the Marina estate, we can say that there's no documentation of the Locomobile Company taking such product photos in front of Marina. At the time, the residence was privately occupied by Clinton Barnum Seeley (pictured here with his grandfather.)

 

This may have been taken by a friend of Clinton or the man himself, but there is not enough documentation in the corporate records to say anything definiteively.

 

We appreciate your letting us take the time to check all available resources for this.

 

Thank you.

BHC Staff

 

Bridgeport History Center

Bridgeport Public Library

 

925 Broad Street

 

Bridgeport, CT 06604

 

203-576-7400, #7

 

 

NOTE: This is a shared department email.

Edited August 19, 2022 by alsfarms
Clarity (see edit history)

[George K]

I think this answers the question of the Locomobile factory using the said mansion as a back drop. This is from 1913.

[alsfarms]

From my evaluation, of automobile registrations for 1926, I do certainly agree.  Even though the Bridgeport Public Library Historical Group could find no direct  evidence that suggests the Marina Mansion was used as a backdrop for publicity and sales promotion pictures.  I wonder how far the Marina Mansion was from the Locomobile factory?  The picture could still be of my Locomobile, but that is just conjecture with out some documentation.

Al

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by alsfarms
spelling (see edit history)

[30sclassics]

Less than 1 mile.  According to a "Wayback Machine" post, "The Locomobile plants were located at the foot of Bridgeport's Main Street, on the edge of Seaside Park where the United Illiminating Company has its oil tanks."