Delahaye

[1935Packard]

We don't have a CCCA forum thread on Delahayes, so I figured I would start one.  I think a lot of CCCA-eligible Delahayes (Series 135, 145, 148, 165) are just stunning to look at.  I'd be interested in any opinions of them as actual cars to drive. Are they reliable, are parts available in the U.S., etc?  Certainly not performance cars, but curious how they drive. Also interested in views of the Delahaye market.  It seems that prices vary dramatically based on coachbuilder (as one would expect), but I don't know if there are rules of thumb about what the market looks for.   

 

More broadly, just figured we need a Delahaye thread. 

 

 

 

[alsancle]

I lusted after this car last year. 

 

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/jg21/the-guikas-collection/lots/r0016-1950-delahaye-135-ms-cabriolet-by-saoutchik/1074454

 

[John Bloom]

This should be an interesting thread. There are conservative makes, and more flamboyant makes, and then there is Delahaye. Never to be accused of being shy.

 

This car traded hands at auction recently and I enjoyed reading and following the media presentation of it.

https://worldwideauctioneers.com/listings/scottsdale-auction-2022/1935-delahaye-135-m/

 

 

 

[1935Packard]

On 7/12/2022 at 7:09 AM, John Bloom said:

This should be an interesting thread. There are conservative makes, and more flamboyant makes, and then there is Delahaye. Never to be accused of being shy.

 

I only know what I Google, but I think my favorites so far are the 135 cars by the likes of Pennock and Chapron.  Really beautiful lines, but not so flamboyant that it no longer seems to be a functioning car.   I love this design by Pennock: 

 

 

Edited May 8, 2023 by 1935Packard
Improving recommendation (see edit history)

[1935Packard]

One more question to add to the mix: How do you learn more about Delahayes?  I know of only one English-language book that covers them in detail, the Mullin Museum's, "French Curves - Delahaye, Delage, & Talbot-Lago," but it's $150 to buy.  Is anything else good? There are videos on youtube, but I don't see much in terms of books, etc.

[edinmass]

Orin, I need to take you to a collection in the mid west that has a bunch of them. 

[alsancle]

There are two or three of these bodies.   RM sold one at Amelia about 5 years ago.   I was lusting after that one too.

 

[alsancle]

A early picture of the Saoutchik I posted at the beginning of the thread.

 

 

[1935Packard]

6 hours ago, alsancle said:

There are two or three of these bodies.   RM sold one at Amelia about 5 years ago.   I was lusting after that one too.

 

 

Beautiful.  The coachbuilder wasn't too worried about whether drivers behind you would see your taillights, I gather. 

[edinmass]

I like the post war units also. They still had some decent coachbuilding on their chassis.  

[George K]

Where do you start or stop?

[Gary_Ash]

Here are three in the Mullin Museum in Oxnard, CA.  For more about the blue 1937 Type 145 race car, read the book "Faster" by Neal Bascomb.  I think one could reasonably call these "performance cars".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Gary_Ash (see edit history)

[John Bloom]

17 minutes ago, Gary_Ash said:

Here are three in the Mullin Museum in Oxnard, CA.  For more about the blue 1937 Type 145 race car, read the book "Faster" by Neil Bascomb.  I think one could reasonably call these "performance cars".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Gary, thumbs up to Faster. 
 

[Gary_Ash]

There is also a lot of info about the 1930s racing Delahayes and the drivers in the book "Grand Prix Saboteurs", available from Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/Grand-Prix-Saboteurs-Joe-Saward/dp/0955486807 

[George K]

A wonderful book about a true gentleman racer. Met him once. He was very approachable. I asked him to sign my copy. Then I asked questions regarding a Bugatti I was working on that he drove. He recounted races and answered all my questions. Good guy. He raced Delahaye cars. That’s him in the Type 145 when he won the the Prix Du Million.

[58L-Y8]

This Curbside Classics article has an overview of Delahaye history:

Automotive History: French Deadly Sins (Third Helping, part 3) – Delahaye 4.5 Litres (type 175 / 178 / 180) & Delage D6: Cream And Punishment | Curbside Classic

[Walt G]

Thanks for the heads up about the Curbside Classics article! Few articles done on the make and Delage as well.; I have a fair amount of material and period photographs on Delehaye and Delage that would be enough for a decent commentary but all of that takes time to do and then find a place to see it in print   Something that could never appear in our AACA magazine due to lack of space.

[58L-Y8]

4 hours ago, Walt G said:

Thanks for the heads up about the Curbside Classics article! Few articles done on the make and Delage as well.; I have a fair amount of material and period photographs on Delehaye and Delage that would be enough for a decent commentary but all of that takes time to do and then find a place to see it in print   Something that could never appear in our AACA magazine due to lack of space.

Walt:

The author of this article, Tatra87, has written a number of well-researched and presented articles on obscure foreign makes which are worthwhile reads.   Many are under the "Deadly Sin" title as the particular series lead to the demise of the nameplate.    Not that you need more to fill your time, but I believe you'll find his articles are worth your time.

Steve

[1935Packard]

16 hours ago, 58L-Y8 said:

This Curbside Classics article has an overview of Delahaye history:

Automotive History: French Deadly Sins (Third Helping, part 3) – Delahaye 4.5 Litres (type 175 / 178 / 180) & Delage D6: Cream And Punishment | Curbside Classic

Fantastic article!  Thanks for posting, I learned a lot.

[Walt G]

Here is one from my archives/library - at the Paris Salon , I have so many period photographs of European and American cars at the annual four European auto Salons held , plus all the ones shown in OMNIA magazine that I have a full run of from 1920 to 1931 ( it was a monthly high grade quality auto periodical). Details for these cars can be found in the inch plus thick souvenir programs sold at the salons , and I have a run of those as well for the pre war years.  To much stuff , to many stories that are waiting to be told by taking the time and effort to assemble the history puzzle.

[edinmass]

7 hours ago, 1935Packard said:

Fantastic article!  Thanks for posting, I learned a lot.

 

Tell your wife she doesn't need that new car or kitchen remodel. It's much more urgent you buy a French custom bodied car...........😛

[West Peterson]

On 7/16/2022 at 8:26 AM, Walt G said:

Here is one from my archives/library - at the Paris Salon , I have so many period photographs of European and American cars at the annual four European auto Salons held , plus all the ones shown in OMNIA magazine that I have a full run of from 1920 to 1931 ( it was a monthly high grade quality auto periodical). Details for these cars can be found in the inch plus thick souvenir programs sold at the salons , and I have a run of those as well for the pre war years.  To much stuff , to many stories that are waiting to be told by taking the time and effort to assemble the history puzzle.

 

Delahayes used sooo many different bumper designs. This car captures my attention, because it looks so similar to the one my grandfather bought. Same bumpers and fog lights, and apparently same coachbuilder --- Chapron.

[58L-Y8]

It's interesting the European coachbuilders figured out how to build B-pillarless touring coupes decades before the idea occurred to American automakers to clamp a hardtop on a convertible body.  Although it might seem a minor change, it increases the appeal of what can otherwise be a rather prosaic body style.

[8E45E]

A few I can add:

 

[1935Packard]

On 7/16/2022 at 6:25 AM, edinmass said:

 

Tell your wife she doesn't need that new car or kitchen remodel. It's much more urgent you buy a French custom bodied car...........😛

 

I will be sure to tell her, le temps presse!   But she will just laugh at my ability to use Google Translate.

[1935Packard]

I love this unrestored 1938 cabriolet, another by Chapron that is similar to the one Walt G shows above. 

 

 

[TG57Roadmaster]

1936 Delahaye 135 Cabriolet by Henri Chapron, from the French magazine Miroir du Monde. 

TG

Edited July 22, 2022 by TG57Roadmaster (see edit history)

[TG57Roadmaster]

1939 Delahaye 135MS Cabriolet by Figoni & Falaschi and the Triple Tree Aerodrome's 1938 Spartan 7W Executive in the Aero Expo at the 2019

Hilton Head Island Concours d'Elegance & Motoring Festival.

 

 

1939 Delahaye 135MS Cabriolet by Figoni & Falaschi and the Triple Tree Aerodrome's P-51 Mustang, "Tempus Fugit".

 

 

 

TG

 

Edited July 22, 2022 by TG57Roadmaster (see edit history)

[TG57Roadmaster]

The Peter Mullins Foundation's 1939 Delahaye 165 Cabriolet by Figoni & Falaschi took Best of Show, European at Meadow Brook in 2009.

 

 

 

TG

Edited July 22, 2022 by TG57Roadmaster (see edit history)

[TG57Roadmaster]

At Meadow Brook in 2009, a 1948 Delahaye 135MS Cabriolet by Faget & Varnet, a small Parisian coachbuilder.

 

 

 

 

 

At the time, the owners took their elderly poodle everywhere with them, even to the awards stand!

 

 

TG

Edited July 22, 2022 by TG57Roadmaster (see edit history)

[TG57Roadmaster]

1937 Delahaye 135M Cabriolet by Figoni & Falaschi at Meadow Brook in 2009.

 

 

 

 

 

TG

Edited July 22, 2022 by TG57Roadmaster (see edit history)

[Janousek]

Classic Car Club of America's Museum car out at Gilmores.   I painted it 5 ish years ago.  Time flies.  

[1935Packard]

The two Delahayes at the RM Sotheby's Monterey auction: 

 

1) The 1950 Delahaye 180 Transformable Cabriolet by Franay had a $200k-$250K estimate and went for $318,500 including buyer's premium.

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/mo22/monterey/lots/p0017-1950-delahaye-180-transformable-cabriolet-by-franay/1252969

 

2) The 1946 Delahaye 135 M Coach by Guilloré had a $100k-$150K estimate and went for $98K.

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/mo22/monterey/lots/p0016-1946-delahaye-135-m-coach-by-guilloré/1252975

 

I love that '46 coupe.  Seems a great deal at that price for a collector who is open to closed car.   

Edited August 19, 2022 by 1935Packard (see edit history)

[1935Packard]

Good video of a very nice Delahaye, although I'm not sure I like the rear-mounted spare. 

 

 

[alsancle]

5 hours ago, 1935Packard said:

Good video of a very nice Delahaye, although I'm not sure I like the rear-mounted spare. 

 

 

Orin,  you are not wrong.  It messes the lines up on this particular car.

[Su8overdrive]

A late friend, owning a long succession of chiefly Gallic high end cars of the '30s, '40s, whose Delahaye took Bauble Beach's 2000 Best of Show,  said they were better real world cars than Bugattis, and he'd owned two of those, a Type 57 and postwar continuation Type 101.  But that comment could be ascribed to many makes.  Most Delahayes were powered by a light/medium duty six-cylinder ohv truck engine, the equivalent of a French GMC, and with few exceptions, retained mechanical brakes through the end in 1954.   This same fellow rightly remarked in the late '90s that it was "all over" for the big, boxy "Classics (a nebulous term)" of the early '30s,  the only premium prewar cars holding their value being those with "swoop;"  Lincoln Zephyrs and Continentals, Cadillacs, Buicks, Packard Darrins and Clippers, so custom bodied barouches like Delahayes held their own, style selling cars in the day and since.  

 

 For perspective, Hill & Vaughn's president, Raja Gargour, remarked in Road & Track's 1991 Salon of a straight eight ohv '37 Delage D8, the more premium and powerful offering of the Delahaye/Delage partnership, that he found it "less satisfying than a Packard" of the era,  likely referring to a One-Twenty.  But the six-cylinder Delahaye Type 135 was a sound, relatively affordable chassis for various ever sleekening Moderne stylings, hence their popularity today.

 

 Ettore Bugatti drove a Packard Eight on long, fast Continental business trips.   Ralph Stein preferred Alfa Romeos to Bugattis.  

 

  What hurts Delahayes today is that this hobby was more fun before the advent of nest-feathering auction house press release pomposity and janitorial d' non-elegances having little to do with the prewar European affairs at which cars judged solely on line, form, presence, perhaps driven to the hotel grounds in the rain the night before, a bit of mud still in the tire treads.

 

  For greater perspective on Delahaye,  Monsieur 1935 Packard, consider the  schizophrenia in the CCCA.  The most widely owned car among members is a 1941-47 Cadillac Series 62, sharing every piece of sheet metal with  Pontiac, tho' offering HydraMatic, so you've got "Classic" golf carts.  Yet the single most heavily posted CCCA forum thread is of the overrated, overblown Mercedes 500/540K, so there's a good deal of Walter Mittyism.   However,  if you can drive a well fettled Delahaye owned by a content, honest owner, you might abide it.  Less the comic opera rear overhang and front fender skirts, such examples strictly for children of wealth on Paris's flat streets and the level Route Nationale.   Their commonly fitted Cotal pre-select transmission, akin to England's Wilson unit, both more reliable than the 1936-37 Cords' four-speed version of the 1935-36 Hudson's Bendix "Electric Hand,"  enables you to drive as fast backwards as forwards.  

Edited June 30, 2023 by Su8overdrive (see edit history)

[1935Packard]

On 6/20/2023 at 4:19 PM, Su8overdrive said:

A late friend, owning a long succession of chiefly Gallic high end cars of the '30s, '40s, whose Delahaye took Bauble Beach's 2000 Best of Show,  said they were better real world cars than Bugattis, and he'd owned two of those, a Type 57 and postwar continuation Type 101.  But that comment could be ascribed to many makes.  Most Delahayes were powered by a light/medium duty six-cylinder ohv truck engine, the equivalent of a French GMC, and with few exceptions, retained mechanical brakes through the end in 1954.   This same fellow rightly remarked in the late '90s that it was "all over" for the big, boxy "Classics (a nebulous term)" of the early '30s,  the only premium prewar cars holding their value being those with "swoop;"  Lincoln Zephyrs and Continentals, Cadillacs, Buicks, Packard Darrins and Clippers, so custom bodied barouches like Delahayes held their own, style selling cars in the day and since.  

 

 For perspective, Hill & Vaughn's president, Raja Gargour, remarked in Road & Track's 1991 Salon of a straight eight ohv '37 Delage D8, the more premium and powerful offering of the Delahaye/Delage partnership, that he found it "less satisfying than a Packard" of the era,  likely referring to a One-Twenty.  But the six-cylinder Delahaye Type 135 was a sound, relatively affordable chassis for various ever sleekening Moderne stylings, hence their popularity today.

 

 Ettore Bugatti drove a Packard Eight on long, fast Continental business trips.   Ralph Stein preferred Alfa Romeos to Bugattis.  

 

  What hurts Delahayes today is that this hobby was more fun before the advent of nest-feathering auction house press release pomposity and janitorial d' non-elegances having little to do with the prewar European affairs at which cars judged solely on line, form, presence, perhaps driven to the hotel grounds in the rain the night before, a bit of mud still in the tire treads.

 

  For greater perspective on Delahaye,  Monsieur 1935 Packard, consider the  schizophrenia in the CCCA.  The most widely owned car among members is a 1941-47 Cadillac Series 62, sharing every piece of sheet metal with  Pontiac, tho' offering HydraMatic, so you've got "Classic" golf carts.  Yet the single most heavily posted CCCA forum thread is of the overrated, overblown Mercedes 500/540K, so there's a good deal of Walter Mittyism.   However,  if you can drive a well fettled Delahaye owned by a content, honest owner, you might abide it.  Less the comic opera rear overhang and front fender skirts, such examples strictly for children of wealth on Paris's flat streets and the level Route Nationale.   Their commonly fitted Cotal pre-select transmission, akin to England's Wilson unit, both more reliable than the 1936-37 Cords' four-speed version of the 1935-36 Hudson's Bendix "Electric Hand,"  enables you to drive as fast backwards as forwards.  

Thanks, Su8overdrive., for the practical perspective. if they're stunning to look at, but not very useful as actual cars, that's not all that desirable to own.  And it does seem notable that the only ones I have seen at CCCA events are a show car or two that was brought on and off the trailer.  

[1935Packard]

I was really interested to see this 1937 Delahaye Cabriolet by Chapron at the Gooding auction today.  No reserve, $225k-$275k estimate, and just went for $207K including the buyer's premium.   It looks incredible from 10 feet away, although you realize it's not a concours winner when you're really close up: Paint shows orange peel, there are some scratches here and there, etc.  But it's a lot of car for the price.  I think it's a bit overdone, with too many colors, but it's still pretty cool. (The front bumper looks off, but I noticed each side is mounted to just a single bolt; I wonder if it's just at the wrong angle. I don't know.)

 

 

[1935Packard]

Some close up shots.  Sorry most of them uploaded sideways, I took them vertically -- sorry about that.

 

[1935Packard]

Looking around the web, looks like the bumper halves may just be at the wrong angle. Others look like this, with the bumpers close to horizontal at the ends and dropping at the center to match the contours of the grill—which makes a lot more sense.