timecapsule Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 I recently pulled the leaking wheel seal from my 1930 Hudson Super 8. It was a Timken so I'm replacing it with the same one. It took a fair bit to get the old one out using a hook and a slide hammer, destroying it but I could still read the # on it. The new one pushes in with my thumb fairly easily and comes back out fairly easily as well. I'm wondering if anyone else has had a similar issue and what they used to secure the seal in place. I'm sure JB Weld would do the trick. But then when it came to replacing it again it would be a nightmare to get it out and clean the surface area that the seal sits in perfectly clean and smooth for the next seal. I thought about using a marine adhesive/sealant like 3M4200. But there might not be enough room between the seal and the seat that it sits in to allow enough of that stuff to create a bond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swear57 Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 No try a different brand of seal. If the outside is loose what about inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timecapsule Posted July 8, 2022 Author Share Posted July 8, 2022 21 minutes ago, Swear57 said: No try a different brand of seal. If the outside is loose what about inside. I never very comfortable with cross referencing. It usually gets worse as opposed to better. It is the same p/n as the one I took out, and I got 4 of them. That's all there was available in Canada. The inside diameter is fine. I'm thinking the previous owner took measurements and this seal is the best they could come up with. Perhaps it was secured in place with something, but there wasn't any traces of anything on the seal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 Could you wrap teflon tape around it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timecapsule Posted July 8, 2022 Author Share Posted July 8, 2022 6 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said: Could you wrap teflon tape around it? I doubt that there would be enough room. I mean it's tight going in, but once it's in I can reach in behind it with my fingers and pull it out fairly easily. I tried Permatex aviation form a gasket sealant liquid. I left it over night but it still pulled out with my fingers the next day. Perhaps I didn't give it enough time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 While I have not had any experience with this particular application, I have previously installed similar seals with red Loctite. Obviously you need to be sure the mating surfaces are completely clean of any grease or oil, and yes, once dried it does require more effort to remove the seal. Heat is usually the recommended way to loosen red Loctite. I'd be more concerned that the seal is only finger tight. I don't know that Loctite will be strong enough for that loose a fit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 Is there room for the seal to "come out" after all installation is completed? Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timecapsule Posted July 8, 2022 Author Share Posted July 8, 2022 32 minutes ago, joe_padavano said: While I have not had any experience with this particular application, I have previously installed similar seals with red Loctite. Obviously you need to be sure the mating surfaces are completely clean of any grease or oil, and yes, once dried it does require more effort to remove the seal. Heat is usually the recommended way to loosen red Loctite. I'd be more concerned that the seal is only finger tight. I don't know that Loctite will be strong enough for that loose a fit. Red Loctite is a good thought. I might try it and see if I can pull the seal out after a day or so with my fingers 31 minutes ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said: Is there room for the seal to "come out" after all installation is completed? Ben Yes, on this car the seal is way in about 7 inches or so, past the backing plate. There is a huge cavity between the seal and the bearing that is seated at the backing plate. This area is filled with wheel bearing grease. ( 9 oz.) If it did work itself out, the grease would keep it away from the bearing. But in all likelihood I don't see that happening. I think the worse that would happen is that the rear end gear oil would seep past it and mix with the wheel bearing grease. The only thing keeping the grease from getting out and onto the brakes, is a felt washer in the bearing end cap, functioning similar to a seal. Which I have replaced because the one in there was not doing it's job anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobcanuck Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 Is there not another Lactate product made specifically for such a situation i.e. "loose fit" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 Indian head sealer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plymouthcranbrook Posted July 8, 2022 Share Posted July 8, 2022 47 minutes ago, JACK M said: Indian head sealer. Haven’t they stopped making that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timecapsule Posted July 8, 2022 Author Share Posted July 8, 2022 1 hour ago, JACK M said: Indian head sealer. Are you suggesting it because it is "hard setting" ? I'm curious about the difference between it and their aviation form a gasket sealant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timecapsule Posted July 8, 2022 Author Share Posted July 8, 2022 2 hours ago, bobcanuck said: Is there not another Lactate product made specifically for such a situation i.e. "loose fit" ? Good point. Loctite does have the 609 retaining compound designed for loose bearing fit. I actually think I have some of that stuff. Hopefully it doesn't have a shelf life because I can't remember how many decades I've had it. More than one for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 Flange sealant: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timecapsule Posted July 9, 2022 Author Share Posted July 9, 2022 38 minutes ago, EmTee said: Flange sealant: Thanks for the suggestion. I've watched a video of the 518 as well as videos of the 609. I think in my case the 609 would be more suitable. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 Indian head is hard setting, but will need overnight to fully harden. I saw some for sale recently, no longer called indian head, but still the same stuff in a brown plastic bottle. It was labeled Permatex gasket shellac. The important thing to note is that the maker is PERMATEX. Beware similar looking brown bottles from other makers. They are usually not hard setting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 Still Indian Head around here, but is owned by Permatex. https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-20539-Indian-Shellac-Compound/dp/B0008KLOG6?th=1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chistech Posted July 10, 2022 Share Posted July 10, 2022 You can also stipple the hub side wall with a sharp pin punch if the friction fit now is fairly good then put 6, evenly spaced stipples around the hub face that the seal edge seats against. Put a thin layer of black permatex on the outside of the seal and seat it in place. Used this technique for both seals and spun outer bearing races with excellent results. Saved many worn hubs this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timecapsule Posted July 11, 2022 Author Share Posted July 11, 2022 11 hours ago, chistech said: You can also stipple the hub side wall with a sharp pin punch if the friction fit now is fairly good then put 6, evenly spaced stipples around the hub face that the seal edge seats against. Put a thin layer of black permatex on the outside of the seal and seat it in place. Used this technique for both seals and spun outer bearing races with excellent results. Saved many worn hubs this way. Thanks, I used the 609 and by tomorrow morning it will be 48 hours since I applied it, so I may get brave and give the seal a little tug with my finger to see if it stays in place. The issue I have with stippling is that on my 30 Hudson the seal is in quite a distance from the backing place. Around 7 inches, so it's difficult to get in there. I would need a super long punch and them I can't really strike it at much of an angle. I had intended on sealing around the outer edge with something. When you mention black permatex, what product are you referring to? I think I have some Permatex Ultra Black. Is that basically the stuff you mean? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted July 11, 2022 Share Posted July 11, 2022 Probably Permatex #1. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chistech Posted July 11, 2022 Share Posted July 11, 2022 Yes, the ultra black. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen_Dyneto Posted July 11, 2022 Share Posted July 11, 2022 I've used the stippling technique any number of times with complete success. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timecapsule Posted July 11, 2022 Author Share Posted July 11, 2022 7 hours ago, EmTee said: Probably Permatex #1. When you say #1 do you mean their form a gasket p/n 58912? Because I have some of that and it looks like it would be suitable. "Fast drying, hard setting". It also says it's designed for sealing rigid materials. However it also say designed for permanent assembly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted July 11, 2022 Share Posted July 11, 2022 Yes, the 'hard setting' black tar-like stuff. I usually have the #2 (stays soft) around for valve cover or water pump gaskets. The #1 doesn't have as long a shelf life and there are fewer occasions where I would use it, but holding that seal in place would seem like a situation to use it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted July 11, 2022 Share Posted July 11, 2022 As far as I know, Permatex #1 will say Permatex #1 on the squeeze tube. It is a hardening shellac-based sealer similar to Indian Head, but it has a thicker paste-like consistency more like Permatex #2 instead of being a brush-on liquid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timecapsule Posted July 11, 2022 Author Share Posted July 11, 2022 4 minutes ago, Bloo said: As far as I know, Permatex #1 will say Permatex #1 on the squeeze tube. It is a hardening shellac-based sealer similar to Indian Head, but it has a thicker paste-like consistency more like Permatex #2 instead of being a brush-on liquid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timecapsule Posted July 11, 2022 Author Share Posted July 11, 2022 Just now, timecapsule said: It's brown and comes out like toothpaste. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted July 11, 2022 Share Posted July 11, 2022 That's #1. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chistech Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 I use #2 black silicone type. I use it to seal more than adhering anything. It helps seal any tiny gaps the stippling might create. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 #2 isn't silicone; it's similar to #1 (like 'black toothpaste'), but it stays pliable and doesn't dry hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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