Classics into Customs

[MrEarl]

 I appreciate a well done custom but not in this manner.

sound familiar @old-tank ? 

 

 

Keith Mathiowetz, OLD CARS WEEKLY
__________________________________________
Horror stories

Lately, we on the Old Cars editorial staff have been hearing a few disturbing stories from concerned readers throughout the country regarding some frightening practices they're seeing in the old car hobby. What they're witnessing involves the deliberate destruction of stock collector vehicles.

One reader in Arizona told us about the local car shows in his area and how they're affecting the types of cars people are bringing for display. It seems the events are getting so large and popular that a few well-heeled participants are trying to out-do each other with the most unusual modified vehicles. What are these owners customizing and bringing out to the shows? According to the reader, he knows personally of a couple of custom car shops in his area that have taken restored, stock Classic cars from the 1930s including a Stutz and a Marmon and turned them into high-dollar hot rods. The story goes that the rich owners buy Classic cars, commission the shops to perform the customizing, and end up with a one-of-a-kind hot rod to show off. From what the reader said, the frames, engines, and other parts are discarded after the operation, never to be used again. Apparently, the owners have no regard for history, and the "It's my car and I do as I please" mentality takes over. It's appalling.

From another source, we heard about a "classic car demo derby" held in Minnesota earlier this month. Here, a promoter encouraged people who own operating cars manufactured through the mid 1960s to compete in this unique eve of destruction: One car was a 1959 Edsel four-door hardtop that was rescued from a grove by a teenager. He got the car running, spruced it up, and wrecked it in the derby. In truth, the car was already left for dead when the person found it, but it had a good grille, front bumper, and other hard-to-find Edsel parts that any restorer would've snapped up. Now, those pieces are gone. More disturbing, however, is that a teenager was allowed to think that an old car and rare parts are expendable. In a hobby that needs younger people involved, I would rather have seen him with the help and guidance of a hobbyist get the Edsel back on the road.

These are only two examples that have come to our attention, but I'm sure there are more. Though enthusiasts can't police every area of the hobby, we need to protect it where we can. Reckless activity can't be allowed to happen.

[JohnD1956]

As much as I think it is a waste of money to take a restored car and then modify it, the fact is, when it is sold to someone else, there is little we can do about how it turns out.  I am sure a lot of us have a horror story to tell in this regard, and if these stories were not so heartbreaking they might have some entertainment value.  But other than that, I tend to think every one of these cars that gets destroyed makes the remaining cars more rare and potentially more valuable.   If people want to throw their money away there is not much I can do about it except, if they want my cars, they will pay dearly to get em.  And if that should happen, I can then at least seek solace in the size of my own bank account. 

 

[Matt Harwood]

This is the end result of our "I want it quick, I want it easy, I don't want to think about it, and I have a short attention span," attitude about everything.

[edinmass]

An example: A guy bought a 1934 Pierce Arrow factory Silver Arrow for just under 200k, and has cut it up into a piece of sxxt hot rod for Sema. More money than brains. He figured it was his ticket to an automatic win……personally, I think he is a first rate ass hxxe. I’m entitled to my opinion………as is he. I would really enjoy it if he misses the win by just one vote. 

[Grimy]

7 minutes ago, edinmass said:

An example: A guy bought a 1934 Pierce Arrow factory Silver Arrow for just under 200k, and has cut it up into a piece of sxxt hot rod for Sema. More money than brains. He figured it was his ticket to an automatic win……personally, I think he is a first rate ass hxxe. I’m entitled to my opinion………as is he. I would really enjoy it if he misses the win by just one vote. 

That particular SA had an excellent restoration circa 1988 but was cursed with very bland colors--two shades of light gray, "light" and "lighter"--but with red-orange wheels.  It made the rounds of auctions a dozen times or more in the last 20 years.  I inspected the car at the 2005 PAS Meet and again at Hershey the same year as a comp for the SA I purchased.  What has happened to it is a real shame.  My own guess is that many souls figured that the cost of repainting to a more attractive appearance was a deal breaker.

[Matt Harwood]

14 minutes ago, edinmass said:

An example: A guy bought a 1934 Pierce Arrow factory Silver Arrow for just under 200k, and has cut it up into a piece of sxxt hot rod for Sema. More money than brains. He figured it was his ticket to an automatic win……personally, I think he is a first rate ass hxxe. I’m entitled to my opinion………as is he. I would really enjoy it if he misses the win by just one vote. 

 

Someone should ask him after he won the prize, what then?

[edinmass]

2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

Someone should ask him after he won the prize, what then?

Sell the car for 15 cents on the dollar. Then bring it to the Pierce meet and get tossed out of the parking lot.

[TTR]

While I don't quite understand why this is specifically in Buick forum, especially when most referred examples are some other brands, but...

 

... I don't believe this "customizing" or "hot rodding" is anything new or even recent.

It has been going on as long as there's been automobiles.

Heck, come to think of it, almost all coach built cars are and always were essentially customs, i.e built to some specific configuration & details requested (and paid for) by their first owners, and many had their engines or running gears modified or upgraded (= hot rodded) back in the day or even when new.

 

Besides, some of these "high dollar hot rods" built today aren't necessarily getting done "quick" or "easy", but like any top level restoration, will require time and money, a lot of both and even more of latter if time is of essence. 

OTOH, just like "top level" stock configuration restorations, very, very small percentage of customs or hot rods are actually "top level" jobs easily requiring high six or even seven figure budgets and several thousand hours of labor.

Attempting to get a top award like AMBR or Riddler is not really much different from attempting to get a BoS at Pebble, as all require a right car, right crew and truck load of $$$s.

 

YMMV.

 

 

[60FlatTop]

Before my friend, Mike, passed away I could sit at a both in the Diner, hold my head just right, and say "I prefer the Bespoke model". Guaranteed to make him blow coffee right out of his nose.

It's just a one upper and the story embellished to make it better.

 

[MRJBUICK]

Be prepared as some may have seen

the LS motor conversion

ths is becoming very popular taking out the original drivetrain and installing the modern easy to drive powertrain

i know this is not quite the same anarchy as mentioned above 

but when original motors/drivetrains are removed the car has lost some of its character

this year we accepted them into our show

why

becouse some of these cars are done with alot of care and workmancship so they deserve respect.

but i have to admit when the hood is opened and the Nailhead is gone i feel sad

but alas it is their car, they are part of the hobby (in the modified class) so lets have some fun and have a car show

Marty 

[EmTee]

Well, even Jay Leno has done it to several of his cars...

[60FlatTop]

I frequently think that a growing number of old car hobbyists choose their cars as a fashion accessory based on their Kodachrome memories. Only to become disenchanted with their choice, ability to maintain it, and the lack of the expected pleasure of ownership once the have driven past a few reflective store windows.

 

It starts with the inspired individualist then others follow as a sign of their own individualism.

[EmTee]

9 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

...then others follow as a sign of their own individualism.

 

[NTX5467]

A few years ago, I got a call from an older (meaining "retired", "well-off", and such) gentleman who had the engine and trans out of a '55 Buick he'd put a "modern" LS drivetrain in.  He wanted to sell the Nailhead and DynaFlow, but he wanted too much money for it, as I recall.  Although he said he'd spent a lot to get them rebuilt and such.  He said he wanted a modern powertrain in it so he could feel safe when on road trips in the car.  I respectfully told him that I was unaware of anybody looking for what he was selling, saying I understood his issues with perceived reliability and such.  End of our conversation.

 

I recall that we allow LT1 Chevy V-8s in the modified class, as they came in rwd 1990s Buick Roadmasters, which is fine.  But a LS engine never came in an rwd Buick, although possibly in some of the fwd Buicks Allures.  BTAIM

 

Many suspect that as the Nailhead was designed with 1940s technology and theories, that it is very sub-optimal to produce big horsepower numbers as current-tech engines seem to do.  When I suspect that with the replacement of the DF with a THM200R-4 transmission (as seems to be popular in the Riviera forums) or a THM700 trans, that they might really be surprised at how well "that old Nailhead" can move the car.  Several years ago, one of our members had a '62 LeSabre that a local trans shop installed a '66 Wildcat THM400 into.  The difference was spectacular enough that the member's teen-aged son wanted to drive that "old Buick 4-dr" rather than his import pickup truck.

 

Certainly, it would take a LOT to get a 364 Nailhead into the 500 horsepower range, but what is lost on those big numbers is the off-idle torque of the Buick Nailhead and how THAT initially moves the car and into the upper speed ranges (until about 100mph, which is not really needed in modern driving).  That feeling of "thrust" is what makes a car easy and enjoyable to drive, even with a DynaFlow and its lesser torque multiplication capabilities.

 

Certainly, there are some engineering and operational quirks with Nailheads that other brands/types of engines do not have, so getting one rebuilt well is important.  But working around and fixing some of those quirks should also result in a fine engine, by observation.  One which should, with a few durability upgrades, should run for well past 100K miles with no reliability issues.  Addng a Pertronix or HEI electronic ignition should not be that hard to do.  PLUS as Holley has recently released Sniper EFI self-learning systems for 2bbl (Rochester 2bbl sizes) applications, self-learning EFI becomes an option without needing to find a 4bbl intake manifold.  Adding a lip seal rear main seal and modern-spec gaskets would only make things better.

 

Then, to maintain the "Buick Ride", getting a rear suspension modification to retain the Buick rear axle and coil springs, but without the torque tube, would be a main thing.  Or using a '60s GM rear axle with control arms instead.  Or finding a Chevy 10-bolt out of a later model car, for better ultimate parts availability?  ALL things which a LS conversion would need anyway.

 

So . . . a Buick Nailhead quality and correct rebuild, a later model GM automatic transmission, self-learning (2bbl or 4bbl) EFI and electronic ignition system, plus whatever it might take in the rear suspension/torque tube replacement situation, would result in a modern-upgraded Buick which still maintains the Buick Feel.  Upgrading to a modern "key start" would be easy to do, too.

 

In one respect, using the modern GM LS motor is not different than what happened in the later 1950s when the original Chevy 283 became the darling of the engine-swap operatives into 1930s+ vehicles, replacing flathead inline motors of those earlier cars and pickup trucks.  Installation kits (and related electronics) have been around for a good while to put an LS in many older GM vehicles.  BUT I suspect the popularity of the LS engine is that it gives the younger generation something that they can relate to and know about, more than anything else.  BUT, typically, the main thing that might fail is not the internals of the enging, but the electronics which make it run . . . which they migiht also know what they are looking at when they see them.  In which case everything might well be "aftermarket" and non-OEM.  End result, not much difference between doing an LS swap to them looking at an upgraded Buich Nailhead situation, due to where the needed items might be sourced from.  In any event, it can take several days to get the parts, I suspect, whether from Summit or otherwise.  Once they get things diagnosed.

 

By the same token, taking that quality-rebuilt engine, adding a more efficient modern AVS-2 (500cfm or so) 4bbl carb with electric choke, the Pertronix or HEI electronic ignition system. with an electric fuel pump, the "key start" feature, with a 3-4 speed GM automatic, and the appropriate rear suspension can probably do just as well and ultimately have fewer possible things to go wrong,

for LESS money.

 

SEVERAL ways to play the Upgrade Game without going to the LS route of things!

 

Now, the GM LS engine is a fine engine, but I also suspect that much of its praise for performance comes from the 6+ speed automatic transmissions which come behind it.  ALL of which have something like a 4.50 low gear ratio.  Combine that with a 2.0 torque multiplication rato, so you end up with more torque multiplication in 1st gear itself BEFORE the rear axle ratio is considered.  Hence, better "Launch" characteristics with these recent automatics.  Think . . . 4.5 x 2.0 x 3.23, for example, compared to 2.48 x 2.2 x 3.08 (THM400), 2.75 x 2.2 x 3.23 (THM200-4R, Riviera), or 3.07 x 2.1 x 3.08 (THM700 w/TBI EFI), or however the DynaFlow low gear and 3.64 rear axle comes out in the mix. 

 

Perhaps David Vizard might also offer some porting techniques to make the heads flow more air and the engines make more torque, too?

 

Thoughts and speculations,

NTX5467

[Machine Gun]

@NTX5467Well stated, and agreed. First, I get where the older gentleman is coming from with regard to feeling "safe" while on the road. While I want as much reliability as I can get from a vintage drivetrain, in no way do I feel less than safe taking an old car on a long trip. I can sum up my thoughts on the subject by saying that I would feel unsafe driving an old car in Afghanistan, but if my car craps the bed in Montana, I'll either fix it in a parking lot or ship it home if I can't get it serviced where I am. For me it boils down to how much inconvenience I'm willing to endure for the satisfaction of driving a car that I spent years working on. And I mean really driving the car, not just shuttling to cruise nights or ice cream stands every once in awhile.

 

Parts and service availability are certainly a concern, knowing that I can't just run down to the local auto store to get a set of points, or whatever. Many parts are at least a day or more away via FedEx, so that's another layer of potential inconvenience. Not too big a deal for the retired like myself, who has the time and can afford to make big trips in the first place. That sort of freedom is a blessing that not everyone shares, but if you have the bux to do a full LS swap you can probably afford to ship your car home if you're farther from home than your AAA membership can accommodate.

 

I have a car built in 1964 because I want the 1964 driving experience with all the charm and inconvenience that goes with it. Some just want an older car for their novelty and looks, and there's nothing I would criticize about that. For them a drivetrain swap makes sense. They may not be "car people" to the extent that they might enjoy working on cars and would rather have service done at their local garage. No biggie, I get that too.

 

Performance? I'm not an off-the-line type of guy. All I care about is whether I can safely enter a 70 mph highway without annoying a half-mile of drivers behind me, whether my car will get up to 70 mph in the same day, and if it will stay on the road at that speed without killing me. Oh, and if I will be able to stop before I reach the next state. My mostly stock Skylark does all of that pretty well.

 

I made two safety mods. I added seat and shoulder belts, and I upgraded the brake system to a dual-circuit system. I've not yet made any comfort or convenience mods, but I have considered adding A/C, converting to electronic ignition, and adding fuel injection. That's about the extent of mods I'd consider for my car. I do appreciate a well-executed restomod, though.

 

[EmTee]

Whenever anyone asks me which of my cars that I like the best I always say: "I like them all equally, but for different reasons."  It's basically the same way i feel about my kids... 

[TTR]

On 7/1/2022 at 7:43 AM, 60FlatTop said:

I frequently think that a growing number of old car hobbyists choose their cars as a fashion accessory based on their Kodachrome memories. Only to become disenchanted with their choice, ability to maintain it, and the lack of the expected pleasure of ownership once the have driven past a few reflective store windows.

 

It starts with the inspired individualist then others follow as a sign of their own individualism.

Exactly why Car Shows, Concours d’Elegances, C & Cs, Cruise night gatherings, etc and now apparently social media outlets are and have always been so important to many in this “hobby” as these “individuals”(?) seem to have inherent need for peer or public approval for their so-called “individualism”.. 

[60FlatTop]

There is always that guy who looks like a refugee from a Walt Disney cartoon He pulls a tape measure out of his pocket and holds it up to the windshield post and says "About 4" here". I bet you've seen him.

[NTX5467]

Back when there were very few, if any, solid '32 Ford bodies around, those that had then were somewhat protective of them so that they'd only be sold to people who wanted to restore them to stock rather than chop them up for a custom.  Which I fully understood and appreciated, considering the very limited supply of them.

 

One weekend evening, I was at a cruise spot and the parking lot was thinning out.  A guy walked up to one of the "unmolested" coupe there.  He noted that it was a solid one.  Then he made a statement like, "Anybody can resstore one of these, but it takes a real man to cut one."  Seeming to imply that he was just "alpha male" enough to do it.  Then he looked around a bit more and left.  BTAIM

 

I will concur that some people have absolutely NO knowledge of a vehicle, other than they like the way it looks.  Nothing about some of the neat engineering attributes, the sound of the motor, or how it feels to drive it.  Just that it is perceived to fit their image at that point in time.  Like all "classic cars" are generic in nature, one is just as good as another, for their purposes.  Oh well . . .

[MRJBUICK]

ok i am back, you have drawn me back in lol

i agree with all of the above conversation, a couple of observations of my own.

As mentioned to me by the guys in the LS modified cars at our show 

The LS was the V8 in the Rainier, 5.3

i am sure that one of the obstacles is that to rebuild a Nailhead is far more expensive than an LS

and that is before adding the fuel injuction and such.

now that being said my observation on this extends also to who WE are

we own our Buicks because we love them, but also we are not afraid of not being part of the crowd.

how many over the years have heard the "but its not a Chevy" or such, ask the GS guys 

now i have total respect for the Chevys and just about any other make,but you guys know what i am talking about.

so we have a dedication to Buicks, and i know i would rather stare at a Nailhead. but there are those that prefer the "easier" route

and no one can tell me its easier to find old Buick parts. 

so is it money, being part of the crowd, following the newest trend, all are ok, just not us or the other purists. we are Hardcore Buick

by the way my first car was a 62 lesabre 401 2bbl 4dr sd. it cost me all of $35 in 1976

man i have to say i beat the crap out of that car, no mercy, they say dont shift from low in a dynaflow above i think 20mph 

i can tell you after the burnout it happened alot higher than thay. I COULD NOT KILL THAT CAR. Best damn car i ever owned.

am i proud of what i did, damn straight, had alot of fun doing it, just dont tell my kids lol

Marty

Edited July 5, 2022 by MRJBUICK (see edit history)

[Turbinator]

On 7/2/2022 at 11:08 AM, NTX5467 said:

thoughts and speculations,

I enjoyed your post; however,I must admit I did not know much about the technology you wrote. I'm not familiar with those items. I like to say I had my 401 rebuilt with some upgraded items and some of the same parts. The engine looks the same except for the new spark plug wire management that is low key. The electronic ignition and the increased compression ration and other parts make the engine run how I like it to run. I like the DynaFlow transmission a lot. Just push down on the accelerator and away I go with enough pep for me. It seems to me folks can do what they want with their car. I'm okay with whatever they do. I"m not okay with folks not having anything positive or words of encouragement for the guy that is different. A gent might have a color I don't like, but the paint job was very well done. It doesn't hurt to say, "outstanding paint work." People say customizing a car costs a lot and resale value is not good. I won't argue, but why would anyone care? It's the other guys money. Besides I do not spend money on my 63 thinking I'll get a return. If I want a return on investment there are better investment avenues to pursue than a car.

Turbinator

[60FlatTop]

On 6/28/2022 at 1:55 PM, edinmass said:

Then bring it to the Pierce meet and get tossed out of the parking lot.

Funny what you see in the parking lot next to the PA meet.

[NTX5467]

Some of the best car shows are in the parking lots of the "car shows", by observation.