Why are so many changing to Edelbrock Carburetors?

[NailheadBob]

Joe-p

I would love to have a book like yours because I am a information freak, especially in the binder it is in, but I probably could not afford it. Many years ago at swap meets I bought on numerous occasions the Blue GM binders, Cadillac, Buick, Pontiac in great condition for $10.. each. Try to get one today.

 

Bob

Edited June 15, 2022 by NailheadBob
update (see edit history)

[carbking]

Joe - how did you get it in one binder???

 

I have one the size of yours for the later stuff; plus three more smaller, only about 3 inches each, for the earlier stuff.

 

Jon

[Bloo]

Most of these little auto electric shops will sell you starter, generator and alternator parts. I still have one locally, although it has been bought out by Romaine Electric, who once upon a time were a rebuild shop like this near downtown Seattle. Now they are a chain with a big hub in Kent, WA. Prices have always been reasonable when walking in. I don't see a shopping cart, but I'll bet if you contacted them you could get the parts you need. It would pay to know exactly what brand and model of starter/generator/alternator you have, and exactly what parts you are looking for. The make model and year of the car might be useful too. Be an informed customer. I have never tried to buy over the phone from them, but I'll bet they would help.

 

https://www.romaineelectric.com/index.html

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[carbking]

On 6/14/2022 at 11:50 AM, NailheadBob said:

Where do all these old carburetors and air cleaners end up, E-bay? sold for cores or parts? there is a lot of them somewhere? I welcome your input, as I am just curious.

 

Yes, there are, and I know where there are a LOT of them  

 

Jon

[carbking]

Deleted

Edited June 15, 2022 by carbking (see edit history)

[TexRiv_63]

I don't consider myself a "Dummy". Over my many years of car work I have probably rebuilt a few hundred carburetors including a number of 4GC's without issue. When I got my 66 Monaco wagon it had a really messed up AFB, ran badly and very hard to cold start. I found out it was not the original carb but was close so I bought a kit and rebuilt it. Then did it again. Then bought more expensive parts and did it again, all without success. If you have followed any of my posts for this car it is an original driver and all I wanted was reliability, so I bought an Edelbrock, bolted it on, hooked up the electric choke and it solved all my problems out of the box. The original air cleaner fits fine with a plastic adapter and you can't even see the carb. Not original? - sure but that boat already sailed when I updated my A/C system and I would much rather have a car that runs well. 

[joe_padavano]

33 minutes ago, carbking said:

Joe - how did you get it in one binder???

 

I have one the size of yours for the later stuff; plus three more smaller, only about 3 inches each, for the earlier stuff.

 

Jon

That's how I bought it. The binder has expandable bolts that hold it together, kind of like the GM parts counter catalogs. I think I paid $35 at the Pomona swap meet about 10 or 15 years ago. I ended up having to buy a small shipping crate to get it on the plane for the trip home (well, along with the other stuff I bought).

[rocketraider]

Afternoon TV fix- Garage Squad doing a 1985 Monte Carlo, and early in the episode one of the GS guys says "we gotta get rid of that Quadra-Puke, they're junk". And they stuck an EdelAFB on it.

 

Now, granted, a 1985 MC has an electronic QJet which is emissions oriented rather than performance, but once you understand their quirks a VOM and a dwell meter can make them work quite well.

 

I'm sure the show sponsors did a little product placement. The takeaway is that the target audience- who probably knows little if anything about wrenching- will now forever preach that a QuadraJet is junk.

 

I'm glad I understand cars well enough to be able to cut thru the crap!🤓

[joe_padavano]

6 minutes ago, rocketraider said:

Afternoon TV fix- Garage Squad doing a 1985 Monte Carlo, and early in the episode one of the GS guys says "we gotta get rid of that Quadra-Puke, they're junk". And they stuck an EdelAFB on it.

 

Now, granted, a 1985 MC has an electronic QJet which is emissions oriented rather than performance, but once you understand their quirks a VOM and a dwell meter can make them work quite well.

 

Ironically, the CCC Qjets only use electronic control on the primary side, as you know. And if the distributor isn't replaced and the ECU taken completely out of the system, the car will never run right. Of course, few people knew how to properly adjust the CCC system when it was new, and today nearly no one does, as it requires one to actually read the Chassis Service Manual and follow the directions.

[60FlatTop]

I have manuals from Rochester, Holley, and Carter that I used over the years, not so much anymore because I seem to have dwindled down to AFB's and 4GC's, maybe a 4MC once in a while. I have been vacillating between selling all my old manuals or digitally scanning them by topic for Ebay sales. I am going to need a bunch of

before that happens.

In line with this topic I would sell all three for $170 shipped in the US, $150 + $20 toward shipping. Each one has set in my lap in our living room while I flipped through page by page and my wife didn't give me the evil eye because they smelled bad. Use them to increase your knowledge or develop skills to make a few bucks. They cover carbs from 1930 to about 1970.

I have a ton of manuals and the like that are waiting for that round tuit. PM me.

[Ed Luddy]

10 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

The Qjet is arguably the most sophisticated 4bbl carb ever designed (some claim that distinction belongs to the ThermoQuad, but I classify that as a Qjet wannabe). Unfortunately that sophistication and resulting complexity requires people with sufficient skill and patience to set one up properly. Most people lack this.

I certainly lack that!  Now that I'm supposed to be retired I may still try my hand at it...., nah. My buddy is far too good at Q-jet rebuilding for me to even consider it.

[Bryan G]

When I was a know-nothing kid, the Q-jet in my old Chevy started flooding. Dad, an old car guy, never touched carbs and sent me to the local mechanic. "Throw it out. Get a Holley." Local speed shop had a 650 on the shelf. That was easy! I never did like the way it ran, always cold natured, and when ethanol came out the rubber dissolved. I found another Q-jet, had a retired dealer mechanic tune it, and it started and ran almost like EFI. 

 

Dad later bought a 70s Dodge and needed the 318 rebuilt. Mechanic told him the stock carb was junk, stuck an Edelbrock on it. I drove that truck a bunch of times. Always cold natured, and never really impressed me performance wise. Could it be great? Could that Holley have? I'd agree, probably so. But, so much easier to grab that factory shop manual and follow the instructions. Some say the old B&B is junk...my Chrysler is one of the best starting old cars I've owned, and Mr. Fumble Fingers here rebuilt the darned thing himself.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Bryan G (see edit history)

[alsancle]

When I was a kid, you replaced your Q-jet with a Holley Double Pumper becuase that was what we did.    We also tossed the exhaust manifolds for headers,  the mufflers for glass packs and the wheels for Cragars.    There a lot of things I did when I was 18 I would never do now!

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

38 minutes ago, alsancle said:

When I was a kid, you replaced your Q-jet with a Holley Double Pumper becuase that was what we did.    We also tossed the exhaust manifolds for headers,  the mufflers for glass packs and the wheels for Cragars.    There a lot of things I did when I was 18 I would never do now!

 

  BINGO!

  And some one wishes he still could

 

  Ben

[NailheadBob]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

When I was a kid, you replaced your Q-jet with a Holley Double Pumper becuase that was what we did.    We also tossed the exhaust manifolds for headers,  the mufflers for glass packs and the wheels for Cragars.    There a lot of things I did when I was 18 I would never do now!

I did the same exact thing to my 1965 Chevelle, my hand me down car  from my sister, it had a 6 cylinder automatic, I converted to a 327 and Borg-Warner 4 Speed, headers and a Holley 650 dual pumper. One day going to work was going 60 MPH and came up to stop light, at light car died out, cranked no start, opened the hood to check it and found gasoline all over my distributor (don't know how this did not catch fire) the rear fuel float adjustment screw had vibrated out and that is where the gas came from. I also changed the wheels to Chevy rally wheels with center caps and trim rings, 6" wide on the front and 8" wide on the rear cool stuff.

 

Bob

[TAKerry]

I looked around for awhile for a guy to rebuild my Pontiac motor. When I asked the guy if he knew how to, his response was that he had blown up more Pontiac motors than I had ever seen, LOL. He got the job. I know a guy that specializes in Q jet rebuilds and asked the motor guy again if he wanted me to send it out. His response again, was that he started rebuilding carbs when he was a kid. He said at one shop that is all he did all day. The motor he did runs GREAT and I have never had a problem with the Qjet.

[Marty Roth]

They change to Edelbrock, special permanent air intake, Magnaflow, Isky Cam, Jahns pistons, blah, blah, blah ...

 

Why?

Because Everybody does it, right?

 

Follow the (generally misinformed) crowd who are subject to advertising, misinformation, hype, etc

[Ed Luddy]

On 6/16/2022 at 9:26 AM, Marty Roth said:

They change to Edelbrock, special permanent air intake, Magnaflow, Isky Cam, Jahns pistons, blah, blah, blah ...

 

Why?

Because Everybody does it, right?

 

Follow the (generally misinformed) crowd who are subject to advertising, misinformation, hype, etc

Because they read Hot Rod magazine as kid's and didn't realize all those aftermarket products were advertisers in those magazines.

[rocketraider]

Same as all the TV car shows!

[BobinVirginia]

On 6/16/2022 at 9:18 AM, TAKerry said:

I looked around for awhile for a guy to rebuild my Pontiac motor. When I asked the guy if he knew how to, his response was that he had blown up more Pontiac motors than I had ever seen, LOL. He got the job. I know a guy that specializes in Q jet rebuilds and asked the motor guy again if he wanted me to send it out. His response again, was that he started rebuilding carbs when he was a kid. He said at one shop that is all he did all day. The motor he did runs GREAT and I have never had a problem with the Qjet.

I’ve been asked by several guys why my 62 Impala does better on fuel than their cars. The answer is, the Qjet has 200cfm primaries and doesn’t use as much fuel as the typical Holley or Edelbrock. Stomping the secondaries is very much like flushing a toilet however with the secondary metering rods I have in it. Lol

  
I learned how to rebuild carbs as a younger guy out of necessity. I couldn’t afford the aftermarket stuff. As a teenager in the 90’s Qjet’s were everywhere and dirt cheap! 

[rocketraider]

On 6/18/2022 at 1:11 PM, BobinVirginia said:

I’ve been asked by several guys why my 62 Impala does better on fuel than their cars. The answer is, the Qjet has 200cfm primaries and doesn’t use as much fuel as the typical Holley or Edelbrock. Stomping the secondaries is very much like flushing a toilet however with the secondary metering rods I have in it. Lol

And that, friends, is the magic of the QuadraJet!🧙‍♂️ It can be tailored for fuel economy on the primaries and Katie-bar-the-door on the secondary side!

 

Besides, at 735 cfm (in some cases 800!😳) it passed as much as or more airflow than most Holley/E-AFB, and was more efficient doing it. The way it was designed it delivered what the engine needed for the operating conditions, no more, no less. Magick.

 

If GM had supported QuadraJet with tuning parts as well as Holley did...

[1912Staver]

On 6/16/2022 at 4:15 AM, alsancle said:

When I was a kid, you replaced your Q-jet with a Holley Double Pumper becuase that was what we did.    We also tossed the exhaust manifolds for headers,  the mufflers for glass packs and the wheels for Cragars.    There a lot of things I did when I was 18 I would never do now!

 There is a valid reason for trading a Q -Jet with a Holley. If you are running a reasonably hot cam. This is why all the higher HP Ford and GM engines came from the factory with a Holley. Low vacum at idle alows the metering rods to raise resulting in a very rich mixture.  There are ways of reducing the effect, Jon and a few others probably know for sure, but for most of us just doing what the factories did was the simplest solution. Holley power valves are available in many settings to cope with low idle vacum and are very easy to change. Q jets need the metering rod springs changed and a much more involved process to get it right.

 

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

6 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

 There is a valid reason for trading a Q -Jet with a Holley. If you are running a reasonably hot cam. This is why all the higher HP Ford and GM engines came from the factory with a Holley. Low vacum at idle alows the metering rods to raise resulting in a very rich mixture.  There are ways of reducing the effect, Jon and a few others probably know for sure, but for most of us just doing what the factories did was the simplest solution. Holley power valves are available in many settings to cope with low idle vacum and are very easy to change. Q jets need the metering rod springs changed and a much more involved process to get it right.

Qjets in factory applications that had high overlap cams did not use a power piston or primary metering rods. The 1970 Oldsmobile W30 motors with the 328/328 deg cam (with 108 deg overlap) and the W31 motors with the 308/308 cam (with 82 deg overlap) both used versions of Qjets with blanked off power piston openings and smaller fixed primary jets instead of metering rods. For example, the 7040256 Qjet used on the 1970 W30 MT carbs used 0.058" primary jets instead of the 0.072" jets with metering rods used on lesser 442s that year. Similarly the 7040255 Qjet on the 70 W31 used 0.057" primary jets vs 0.070" jets and metering rods on lesser 350 motors that year. In most cases the factories used Holley carbs for street cred, just like the factory Hurst shifters.

Edited June 20, 2022 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

That's very interesting. I wasn't aware of that version. But I bet they are very hard to come by today. I see several { or more } Holly carbs at every swap meet.

 Can a standard Q Jet be modified to that configuration ?

Edited June 20, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[carbking]

I am not certain who actually produced the first carburetor with metering rod technology, possibly S.U.

 

Stewart (Detroit Lubricator) had it on the Dodge Brothers carbs in the late teens and early '20's.

 

Carter got serious about it in 1929, and used it until the end of the Carter carburetor in about 1985 (yes, I know F/M continued to market items called Carter carburetors after that time).

 

I am unaware of an "alliance" between Carter and Rochester in the 1960's, but both seemed to either share technology, or possibly paid royalties, don't know.

 

With metering rod technology, stepped metering rods may be used for tuning A/F ratios; and metering rod springs may be used to adjust the "timing" of when the various steps controlling A/F ratios are used. Carter used metering rods with two, three, and four steps; depending on the application.

 

As to factory application Holley/Rochester, I think Joe nailed it. The factories often used Holleys on their high performance offerings for two reasons: (1) it was "known" the Holley produced more power  , and (2) from about 1964, Holley supported their performance models with tuning parts. Up until the last few years, every FLAPS in the world stocked Holley jets and power valves. Today, my FLAPS doesn't even stock Holley mounting gaskets; so this advantage to Holley has been lost. Carter had every bit as good parts availability, but for some reason unknown to me, and unknown to Competition Division of Carter 35 years ago, Carter did not have near the advertising budget of Holley.

 

And not all high performance engines came with Holleys. As Joe mentioned, the "W" series Olds came with Q-Jets, as did Pontiac Ram Air Engines; even the Ford Cobra Jet. Chevrolet, Pontiac, and Chrysler used Carter AFB's on dual quad applications. Pontiac used Carter AFB's for their Super Duty racing program.

 

Cliff Ruggles has proved that, as long as more than 850 CFM is not necessary, a Q-Jet can perform as well as a Holley on a race prepared engine (straight-line, not corners). This with the help  of a dyno operator that was actually biased toward Holley.

 

To anyone wishing to use a Q-Jet, Cliff's book on the Q-Jet is required reading (Cliff, that is another cup of coffee you owe me  )

 

As long as one is talking street performance, difficult to beat the spread-bore design with metering rod technology (Rochester Q-Jet, and Carter TQ).

 

And as Joe mentioned; if you JUST have to race one at WOT only, you can always remove the rods and spring and jet ala Holley. Most of what I built when I still built carbs was street; and other than the "W" Olds, and 1 model of Carter used on a marine engine; I always used springs and rods.

 

Jon

 

 

[Frank DuVal]

Cliff's book is GREAT!

[Pfeil]

Just curious, I wonder if anyone has had experience with a 2 X 4bbl spread bore intake running 2 Q jets?

  I suppose the real plus to this is you could never over carburate an engine that couldn't use it all.

For the street it would be good for mileage/throttle response because of those high velocity primaries. 

[joe_padavano]

On 6/19/2022 at 9:34 PM, 1912Staver said:

That's very interesting. I wasn't aware of that version. But I bet they are very hard to come by today. I see several { or more } Holly carbs at every swap meet.

 Can a standard Q Jet be modified to that configuration ?

Yes, you simply need to change the primary jets and plug the power piston feed hole where it connects to manifold vacuum on the bottom.

[joe_padavano]

7 hours ago, Pfeil said:

Just curious, I wonder if anyone has had experience with a 2 X 4bbl spread bore intake running 2 Q jets?

  I suppose the real plus to this is you could never over carburate an engine that couldn't use it all.

For the street it would be good for mileage/throttle response because of those high velocity primaries. 

 

Dual Qjets with a progressive linkage are easy to set up. The problem is that those Offy manifolds are awful designs. There are several versions. The 360 version is a big open plenum with zero attention to airflow. The 180 version has a longitudinal divider in that plenum that basically separates the manifold into two single plane manifolds, one feeding each bank of cylinders. Talk about uneven reversion pulses! The goofiest one is the Dual Port version that is two single plane manifolds stacked, one feeding off the primaries and one feeding off the secondaries. Basically it's the worst of both single and dual plane intakes. There's a reason why no one has copied these designs in the last half a century!

 

 

[joe_padavano]

9 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

Cliff's book is GREAT!

 

The fact that Cliff continues to perpetuate the myth that even number Qjets are for AT applications and odd number are for MT is a big turn-off for me. There are millions of Oldsmobile Delta 88s and Ninety Eights with AT and Qjets that end in '251.

[BobinVirginia]

On 6/19/2022 at 1:25 PM, rocketraider said:

And that, friends, is the magic of the QuadraJet!🧙‍♂️ It can be tailored for fuel economy on the primaries and Katie-bar-the-door on the secondary side!

 

Besides, at 735 cfm (in some cases 800!😳) it passed as much as or more airflow than most Holley/E-AFB, and was more efficient doing it. The way it was designed it delivered what the engine needed for the operating conditions, no more, no less. Magick.

 

If GM had supported QuadraJet with tuning parts as well as Holley did...

Yep, for race tuning and performance Holley is definitely way more tunable with the available parts. I know there’s plenty of opinions and pros and cons. The q-jet has served my application on my Impala very well. 
I will say, not all Qjets are created equally! Lol 

 

Edited June 23, 2022 by BobinVirginia (see edit history)

[BobinVirginia]

Always great to read the tech tips and numbers information on topics like this. Thanks to all for sharing. I’m a big fan of rebuild and reuse rather than toss and buy new! Good stuff 

[joe_padavano]

31 minutes ago, BobinVirginia said:

Yep, for race tuning and performance Holley is definitely way more tunable with the available parts.

GM offered all the parts needed to tune a Qjet, probably in even greater variety that did Holley. That's likely the real problem - there are probably too many choices for the casual tuner.

Today there are many vendors who sell tuning parts for Qjets - rods, jets, hanger, floats, different sized inlets, power piston springs, etc.

[1912Staver]

Jon, I know you know your carb's inside out , but Q jet's on a Ford CJ ? All the 428 CJ's I have ever seen have a factory Holley. It's been too long since I saw a 429 CJ or even longer for a 351 CJ to have a clear memory . Could you clarify ?

[BobinVirginia]

7 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

GM offered all the parts needed to tune a Qjet, probably in even greater variety that did Holley. That's likely the real problem - there are probably too many choices for the casual tuner.

Today there are many vendors who sell tuning parts for Qjets - rods, jets, hanger, floats, different sized inlets, power piston springs, etc.

Cool! Do you have a suggestion for a parts supplier? I have to rely on the internet since local parts store folks glaze over when asked about repair components rather than replacement parts. 

[carbking]

1 hour ago, 1912Staver said:

Jon, I know you know your carb's inside out , but Q jet's on a Ford CJ ? All the 428 CJ's I have ever seen have a factory Holley. It's been too long since I saw a 429 CJ or even longer for a 351 CJ to have a clear memory . Could you clarify ?

 

1970 and 1971 429 CJ.

 

7040285, 6, 7,  and 8.

 

Rochester 7040286 Ford 429 CJ

 

Jon

 

Edited June 24, 2022 by carbking (see edit history)

[carbking]

14 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

 

The fact that Cliff continues to perpetuate the myth that even number Qjets are for AT applications and odd number are for MT is a big turn-off for me. There are millions of Oldsmobile Delta 88s and Ninety Eights with AT and Qjets that end in '251.

 

Olds and Cadillac are both exceptions, there are probably others. The even / odd designation is probably true 95 percent of the time; which means it isn't the other 5 percent. This is true not only for Q-Jets, but other Rochester carbs back to about 1961 or so.

 

There are certain words one must be extremely careful to use: first, last, all, none, always, never, best, worst, etc.

 

The cliche that comes to mind is to not throw out the baby with the wash water.

 

I wish that an equivalent quality book had been written about the Carter AFB's and TQ's. 

 

Jon

[joe_padavano]

11 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

Jon, I know you know your carb's inside out , but Q jet's on a Ford CJ ? All the 428 CJ's I have ever seen have a factory Holley. It's been too long since I saw a 429 CJ or even longer for a 351 CJ to have a clear memory . Could you clarify ?

Jon is spot-on as usual. I always figured that the Qjets on the 429 CJs were payback for Olds using the Ford CJ flapper mechanism and vacuum actuator on my 1969 Hurst/Olds. 😁

 

[joe_padavano]

9 hours ago, carbking said:

The cliche that comes to mind is to not throw out the baby with the wash water.

 

Yeah, except that a rule isn't really useful if you don't know when it doesn't apply. "I" before "E" and all that... 😉