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1960 lincoln continental Starter or Relay is dead?


BryanFJ1
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So yesterday I had a big fight with a clogged fuel line, and while I was trying to start the car I noticed that the starter becoming slower. I'm killing the battery I thought. 
It was to the point when the relay started making clicking noise. 
I brought another battery from another car - and to my big surprise the clicking sound stayed! So i thought maybe it's enough for today, and i should try it tomorrow. 
The next day the clicking sound stayed. To try to figure out if it is a relay or starter I connected the power cable straight to the starter - and it turned! Then I kind of wiggled the wiring around realy, knocked on it, made connections tighter and it started working again BUT - I can't start the car. Feels like it turns differently now, like it makes a whole turn, then it slows and turns it again and the whole starting procedure is slow in general, thus it;s not enough speed to start the car. 
 
Also when i tried another battery relay making super weird noise like there is a firecracker inside. 
 
So what are my options here - change relay or it's a possibility I would need to get a new starter? 
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The Ford relays (aka solenoids) rarely fail. When they click the number one cause is “dead battery”.   This includes dirty cables. Did you scrape BOTH the battery posts and the cable clamps until they were shiny?

are you 100% sure the battery is 100% fully charged?

 

The next most likely is the starter itself. Is it a tired original (worn?) car?  
the starters are simple and cheap BUT changing them requires major swearing.  
there is a long shaft with a Bendix drive. And the starter hits the cross member.  
You remove the starter by unbolting the motor mounts and raising the engine!  
yeah plan for a long day and a lot of negative emotions 

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29 minutes ago, m-mman said:

The Ford relays (aka solenoids) rarely fail. When they click the number one cause is “dead battery”.   This includes dirty cables. Did you scrape BOTH the battery posts and the cable clamps until they were shiny?

are you 100% sure the battery is 100% fully charged?

 

The next most likely is the starter itself. Is it a tired original (worn?) car?  
the starters are simple and cheap BUT changing them requires major swearing.  
there is a long shaft with a Bendix drive. And the starter hits the cross member.  
You remove the starter by unbolting the motor mounts and raising the engine!  
yeah plan for a long day and a lot of negative emotions 

 

 

Well, I cleaned cables. Both sides of the positive cable from the battery terminal that goes to the relay. The one that goes from relay to the strater has been untouched. It was working fine till yesterday struggles.

 

Well, the 1 battery was turning it fine till clicking sounds. The second battery from a running fully charged car was making clicking sounds as well - so it's not a battery. 

 

Can't tell if the starter is original or has been replaced in the past. 

Well, I have ordered a new relay to replace the old one, because these hella weird electrical crackling sounds from it are really weird. 

So from that point I will have to see if it actually starter if it's not going to work. 

 

 

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16 hours ago, m-mman said:

The Ford relays (aka solenoids) rarely fail. When they click the number one cause is “dead battery”.   This includes dirty cables. Did you scrape BOTH the battery posts and the cable clamps until they were shiny?

are you 100% sure the battery is 100% fully charged?

 

The next most likely is the starter itself. Is it a tired original (worn?) car?  
the starters are simple and cheap BUT changing them requires major swearing.  
there is a long shaft with a Bendix drive. And the starter hits the cross member.  
You remove the starter by unbolting the motor mounts and raising the engine!  
yeah plan for a long day and a lot of negative emotions 

I had solenoid problems with a 1958 T-Bird, a 1961 Lincoln Continental and a 1964 Lincoln Continental. Who says they rarely fail? They do! The contacts inside that little unit burn and refuse to make contact, then all you have is click, click until maybe it hits, or not.

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4 hours ago, hook said:

Who says they rarely fail? They do!

40 years of working on FoMoCo cars and I have only replaced 2 bad ones. . . . . . 

I have a pile of old original solenoids that I have saved from parts cars, I clean and reuse them when an original color or appearance is needed. Bolt them on, they work, never have problems. 

There was a good reason Ford used them as relays to power the motors on the retractable Skyliners. 

 

The "flat" style used around 69-72 DO FAIL, but not the classic shaped versions Ford has used since the 50s. 

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5 hours ago, m-mman said:

40 years of working on FoMoCo cars and I have only replaced 2 bad ones. . . . . . 

I have a pile of old original solenoids that I have saved from parts cars, I clean and reuse them when an original color or appearance is needed. Bolt them on, they work, never have problems. 

There was a good reason Ford used them as relays to power the motors on the retractable Skyliners. 

 

The "flat" style used around 69-72 DO FAIL, but not the classic shaped versions Ford has used since the 50s. 

Gee, the parts stores must have gone broke stocking them when nobody needed to buy them. They failed. You may just be the lucky one. They failed in the Lincoln convertibles and the starter usage. I have had many in my 62 years experience.

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10 hours ago, hook said:

I had solenoid problems with a 1958 T-Bird, a 1961 Lincoln Continental and a 1964 Lincoln Continental. Who says they rarely fail? They do! The contacts inside that little unit burn and refuse to make contact, then all you have is click, click until maybe it hits, or not.

Is it possible that the relay making starter turning it slower than it should be? 
Like it not the same cranking speed that it was before and i think it's so slow the engine can't even fire up
 
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If the contacts inside the relay develop high resistance, then, yes, it can cause the starter to turn slowly. At the same time, the relay should get rrreeeaalllyyy warm! 

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Take a jumper cable and clamp it to one side of the solenoid on the large terminal. Then touch the other end of the jumper cable to the opposite large cable on the solenoid. If all your cables are tight and clean and your starter is OK then the starter will turn over the engine. If that's the case you have a bad solenoid.  

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On 5/29/2022 at 1:05 PM, m-mman said:

The Ford relays (aka solenoids) rarely fail. When they click the number one cause is “dead battery”.   This includes dirty cables. Did you scrape BOTH the battery posts and the cable clamps until they were shiny?

are you 100% sure the battery is 100% fully charged?

 

The next most likely is the starter itself. Is it a tired original (worn?) car?  
the starters are simple and cheap BUT changing them requires major swearing.  
there is a long shaft with a Bendix drive. And the starter hits the cross member.  
You remove the starter by unbolting the motor mounts and raising the engine!  
yeah plan for a long day and a lot of negative emotions 

I think that you will also need to detach the H pipe from the passenger side manifold, Drain coolant cuz you will need to detach the radiator pipe at the bottom of the radiator. Plus I think you need to Disconnect transmission control rod at the accelerator bracket.

 
But since I have never taken the engine out of the car - I'm not sure which bolts need to be removed at the mounting.  (See pics) 
 
Is there just a big bottom nut, or two bolts that go to the engine need to be removed? 
 
image.png.f656718fb73090b9cbd76ace86df8286.pngimage.png.6be57fc7a69341527625b31ab9c52d1f.png
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1 hour ago, hook said:

Take a jumper cable and clamp it to one side of the solenoid on the large terminal. Then touch the other end of the jumper cable to the opposite large cable on the solenoid. If all your cables are tight and clean and your starter is OK then the starter will turn over the engine. If that's the case you have a bad solenoid.  

Well, I just got a new solenoid today. So i guess i'm just going to install it and see what happens.

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The large nut on the stud allows the mount to be freed from the frame/cross member. 
the other two remove the mount from the block. 

radiator hose? Exhaust pipes? Linkage? Yes gaining access is more involved than just lifting the engine.  
 

I noticed In your one picture you have a leaking freeze plug….. these CAN be changed from below……BUT…….

considering the starter and freeze plugs and sticky-stuck internals from old gas, removal of the complete engine might make all these tasks easier.  
These Lincolns are not easy to repair.  

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On 5/31/2022 at 5:39 PM, BryanFJ1 said:

Well, I just got a new solenoid today. So i guess i'm just going to install it and see what happens.

Well that takes care of the first solenoid. There's another one on the starter. When power goes to the starter it energizes the solenoid that pulls the Bendix gear into the flywheel. When that happens it makes electrical contact and starts the starter motor. Those contacts could be corroded or not slamming together like they should. For that fix, you'll need to remove the starter and remove the sheet metal cover exposing the contacts. On GM starters it's all combine together on the starter. They have a similar but different can of worms.

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23 hours ago, m-mman said:

The large nut on the stud allows the mount to be freed from the frame/cross member. 
the other two remove the mount from the block. 

radiator hose? Exhaust pipes? Linkage? Yes gaining access is more involved than just lifting the engine.  
 

I noticed In your one picture you have a leaking freeze plug….. these CAN be changed from below……BUT…….

considering the starter and freeze plugs and sticky-stuck internals from old gas, removal of the complete engine might make all these tasks easier.  
These Lincolns are not easy to repair.  

Another nice little bugabo on Lincolns. The intake manifold has core plugs (freeze plugs) under it. Then another fun and games is the camshaft sprocket has plastic teeth. Time is not their friend.

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Again, did you take a valve cover off to see valve action?  
 

I was guilty of denial, too, spent two days trying to start my 67 before I found out valves were stuck.

 

I know, hope springs eternal that it’s minor, but maybe not…

 

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2 hours ago, hook said:

Well that takes care of the first solenoid. There's another one on the starter

No, not on Fords. Fords use a wound spring on a long shaft with a gear on the end. The kind of thing that you might find on most 1940s cars

 

called a Bendix drive 

Edited by m-mman (see edit history)
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9 hours ago, m-mman said:

No, not on Fords. Fords use a wound spring on a long shaft with a gear on the end. The kind of thing that you might find on most 1940s cars

 

called a Bendix drive 

Wake up and smell the flowers! We're not talking about an old Ford with a Bendix spring. We're talking about a 1960's Lincoln.

s-l500.jpg

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15 hours ago, trimacar said:

Again, did you take a valve cover off to see valve action?  
 

I was guilty of denial, too, spent two days trying to start my 67 before I found out valves were stuck.

 

I know, hope springs eternal that it’s minor, but maybe not…

 

I called a local classic car expert, who apparently is very respectful around these parts, and he told me to just get new spark plugs, get a bg 44k cleaner, start the car and wake it run for a while. 

When I told him that I drove my car on old gas for a mile, he said he is hearing stories like mine dozens of times a year, and old gas cant physically harm an engine. LIke in his whole career he never heard of that, so that's good i guess. He also said i don't really need to take off the manifold, the cleaner should clean everything off.  Fingers crossed. 
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16 hours ago, hook said:

Well that takes care of the first solenoid. There's another one on the starter. When power goes to the starter it energizes the solenoid that pulls the Bendix gear into the flywheel. When that happens it makes electrical contact and starts the starter motor. Those contacts could be corroded or not slamming together like they should. For that fix, you'll need to remove the starter and remove the sheet metal cover exposing the contacts. On GM starters it's all combine together on the starter. They have a similar but different can of worms.

So I was inspecting the fuse box, taking pictures of how everything is in there.

And when i was looking at the pictures - BOY OH BOY look at that nasty green corrosion that i couldn't see this whole time on that metal L connector from the top of the positive terminal inside the fuse box. 
 
Hopefully that's my problem... 
image.png.444bd6eee5c8fad20775ccdab8b92a31.png
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4 hours ago, hook said:

Wake up and smell the flowers! We're not talking about an old Ford with a Bendix spring. We're talking about a 1960's Lincoln.

When you are providing technical information details are very important.  

 

The title of the thread and the information that the original poster provided are that he was working on a NINETEEN SIXTY Lincoln not a sixties Lincoln.  (60 vs 60s) 

 

The starter you pictured would work for a 1961 and up Lincoln, but a 1960 (Nineteen sixty) uses an (old fashioned) Bendix design.  

 

This makes a huge difference when removing the starter as it is located between the bell housing and the cross member. During removal one would wish that it was a short assembly, but alas it is not. I have attached a photo of the relevant page from the 1960-1965 Lincoln Mercury parts book. 1777307189_lincstarter.JPG.ec53e10e9e96338d583e8b82a32db2d7.JPG

 

During the sixties (60s) Lincoln did make many changes such as using 4 bbl carb 58-59, 2 bbl 60-62 and moving from generator to alternator for 1963.  While the cars might look similar, tiny details can be critical. 

 

 

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45 minutes ago, BryanFJ1 said:

I called a local classic car expert, who apparently is very respectful around these parts, and he told me to just get new spark plugs, get a bg 44k cleaner, start the car and wake it run for a while. 

When I told him that I drove my car on old gas for a mile, he said he is hearing stories like mine dozens of times a year, and old gas cant physically harm an engine. LIke in his whole career he never heard of that, so that's good i guess. He also said i don't really need to take off the manifold, the cleaner should clean everything off.  Fingers crossed. 

Well, it’s not the old gas that harms the engine, it’s the varnish that remains when the gasoline evaporates.  The new gas dissolves the varnish and turns it into a gummy mess.

 

He can be as expert as he wishes, I’m just telling you my experience, with virtually the same car.  Tell him in his career he just heard of it, I’m not making it up.  Same exact scenario, ran great, next day wouldn’t start.

 

I hope that’s not the problem with yours, but it COULD be, and if your valves are stuck it’s both easy to check (remove a valve cover) and hard to fix.

 

I’m not trying to argue with you nor him, just trying to help you in you quest for finding the problem.

 

Good luck, keep us informed.

Edited by trimacar (see edit history)
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2 hours ago, BryanFJ1 said:

When I told him that I drove my car on old gas for a mile, he said he is hearing stories like mine dozens of times a year, and old gas cant physically harm an engine.

Ha!!!!!🤣  He never had sticky gas!

 

Trying to get rid of "old" gas is difficult if one tries to follow disposal rules. Especially running a shop in a city. So I was putting a gallon or two of stinky gas in my daily driver of the time. I did that at the shop, poured some stinky gas into the shop Corvair Van. I started it, drove it a half a block or so, parked it for a little while (30 minutes, hour?) and then started it back up. What the???? No power, severe valve train rattling.  Removed drivers side valve cover and all three intake vales were stuck open and the rockers hanging on their stems. Lucky, I had shut the engine down before the offending fuel reached the right carburetor. I cleaned out the left carburetor, drained the fuel system, applied PB Blaster or such  to the intake stems and taped the ends with an 8 oz ball peen hammer. I finally go them to move, adjusted the rockers and away it drove. OK, so no bent push rods, because hydraulic lifters. But if there were solid lifters, something would have given!😲

 

OK, so being the shop van, it probably had a gallon or so of good gas in the tank instead of the usual 10 gallons of good to mix without issue......😉

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4 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

Ha!!!!!🤣  He never had sticky gas!

 

Yeah. It really never used to cause much damage in the old days, unless you really pushed your luck. It probably never happened to him. I hear of it happening all the time now. The fuel has changed and it rots faster. I had it happen on a Ford 390 and the gas was only about 2-3 years old. It glued the valve guides solid and bent a bunch of pushrods. It took stuffing the cylinders with twine, removing the valve springs, and then lots of penetrating oil and brake kleen, lots of tapping with a brass hammer and working the valves to get them unstuck over a period of a couple of days. The engine in question has over 200k miles on it, and those guides are NOT tight, but they got glued solid anyway.

 

It has been mentioned that the Lincoln in question may have a plastic timing chain set. If it has one, that needs to come out immediately whether it has failed or not. It may have failed on it's own and may be the reason the car won't run. On the other hand if the valves stuck, that could have easily raked the teeth off. I believe I would start with a compression test and a leakdown test and see where that leads.

 

Edited by Bloo (see edit history)
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