Westinghouse Air Spring Option

[alsfarms]

This is the Dougherty Museum You Tube presentation. Watch it all or if you are only interested in the Locomobile 48, go to 22 minutes. Just before is a Rolls Royce and just after the Locomobile is a Pierce-Arrow. If you are ever in the greater Denver Colorado area, it looks like a quality Museum to visit.

Al

 

[prewarnut]

Hmmm,  He mentions some Westinghouse shocks were installed at the factory. Do we know that? It would sound like a good business model for Westinghouse to work with the manufacturers that way.

[alsfarms]

If we could spend several days at the Bridgeport Public Library, that kind of information is probably buried in the archives and we could know for sure. It does make sense to me, as these are custom built automobiles, that Westinghouse shocks could have been on the original order which would mean "factory installed". Oh course, this is my thinking 100 years after the fact.

Al

[Ittenbacher Frank]

The Westinghouse air suspension is clearly mentioned in the Locomobile spare parts book, listing the special springs needed for this. For further details, see my topic here:

 

Edited October 20 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

On 5/5/2023 at 12:29 AM, alsfarms said:

This is the Dougherty Museum You Tube presentation. Watch it all or if you are only interested in the Locomobile 48, go to 22 minutes. Just before is a Rolls Royce and just after the Locomobile is a Pierce-Arrow. If you are ever in the greater Denver Colorado area, it looks like a quality Museum to visit.

Al

 

Dear Tavernstand 1734 and Alan, thanks a lot for this link to the video. Very nice presentation. I have some questions, will try to contact these people.

See the side view and some deatils of that Locomobile, taken from the video:

 

[alsfarms]

Has anyone reading here seen a similar body design on either a Locomobile 38 or 48?

Al

[ak]

On 5/3/2023 at 5:37 PM, Tavernstand1734 said:

Believe this car as pictured to still be located in the Dougherty Museum - Longmont, Colorado.  Just North of Boulder, CO.

Woe, what is that Red Beast of a machine?

JR

[alsfarms]

This may be of interest to anyone reading here about air shocks. I borrowed this picture from a current ad posted on the HCCA "Parts for Sale" listings. It is for a set of 4 Gruss air shocks. Take a look and maybe incorporate these on your unrestored Locomobile 48 or 38 project. Hmmm, it makes me think....

Al

[Ittenbacher Frank]

For your information: I spoke to Doug Dougherty today. A kind and knowledgeable person who drove his Loco at least 3 times for weddings. He has owned it since 1980. There are three name plates on the body (1 left, 1 right, 1 under the hood), showing the manufacturer "Hume body corporation Boston".

[Jonathan Reeve]

I have these air springs on my Packard 1919 (December) Imperial limousine which is nearing completion of a major restoration. Thanks for the tips about NOT overfilling with air! Also you must free them by bouncing on a suitable part of the frame, if your car has sat still for a few months or years, before pumping them up with air, otherwise you might overfill them!

I wrote an article (with a bit of help from the editor) in the Horseless Carriage Gazette Vol 76 No. 4 (July 2014) about dismantling and rebuilding these with working seals. Most of what was in the maintenance leaflet was in the article. Hope this helps those a little who'd like to use them and not bang their tires against their fender undersides on rough roads, as these get rougher and rougher!

[Ittenbacher Frank]

On 7/11/2023 at 5:04 PM, Jonathan Reeve said:

I have these air springs on my Packard 1919 (December) Imperial limousine which is nearing completion of a major restoration. Thanks for the tips about NOT overfilling with air! Also you must free them by bouncing on a suitable part of the frame, if your car has sat still for a few months or years, before pumping them up with air, otherwise you might overfill them!

I wrote an article (with a bit of help from the editor) in the Horseless Carriage Gazette Vol 76 No. 4 (July 2014) about dismantling and rebuilding these with working seals. Most of what was in the maintenance leaflet was in the article. Hope this helps those a little who'd like to use them and not bang their tires against their fender undersides on rough roads, as these get rougher and rougher!

Thanks for your note, Jonathan! I know your 2014 article, it gave me much support, and still you will have surprises when you work on them.

May I ask: what series and what patent years are shown on the four name plates on these Westinghouse units?

Edited July 12, 2023 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[Jonathan Reeve]

I think you'd better read the details for yourself, but as far as I can see the Airsprings are series 14 - so perhaps cannot have been earlier than 1920? - and the patents run up to 1916. I also uploaded another image of the airspring with its two side oilers that release oil into the space round the piston on the downstroke. I don't think the front perforated vent does anything, correct me if I'm wrong, Frank!

Edited July 13, 2023 by Jonathan Reeve
to answer Frank's questions correctly (see edit history)

[Jonathan Reeve]

Anyone with Westinghouse shocks troubled by low speed wheel wobble needs to get hold of Andy Plummer's article in the British Veteran Car Club's Gazette number 397 (June 2021). Although Andy did not have airsprings on his Wolseley 24/30 he had severe wobble associated with fitting a lighter touring body, which made for a 1 degree reduction in steering caster as the rear springs raised the chassis at the back (this was why Packard specified different rear springs for each of their Twin-six body types). Andy's research led him to track down Dr Fred Lanchester's paper read to the British Institution of Automobile Engineers in 1928 and published in their Proceedings that helped him analyse his problem. Andy ended up tilting the front axle forward with wedges so restoring caster to -2 degrees and increasing trail by a factor of 3-4 fold, back to what it would have been with a limousine body. Those of us with airsprings (functioning or otherwise) and unsatisfactory steering need to think about caster and trail, which are affected by how much air is pumped into the front (and rear) airsprings.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

5 hours ago, Jonathan Reeve said:

Anyone with Westinghouse shocks troubled by low speed wheel wobble needs to get hold of Andy Plummer's article in the British Veteran Car Club's Gazette number 397 (June 2021). Although Andy did not have airsprings on his Wolseley 24/30 he had severe wobble associated with fitting a lighter touring body, which made for a 1 degree reduction in steering caster as the rear springs raised the chassis at the back (this was why Packard specified different rear springs for each of their Twin-six body types). Andy's research led him to track down Dr Fred Lanchester's paper read to the British Institution of Automobile Engineers in 1928 and published in their Proceedings that helped him analyse his problem. Andy ended up tilting the front axle forward with wedges so restoring caster to -2 degrees and increasing trail by a factor of 3-4 fold, back to what it would have been with a limousine body. Those of us with airsprings (functioning or otherwise) and unsatisfactory steering need to think about caster and trail, which are affected by how much air is pumped into the front (and rear) airsprings.

Absolutely true what you are describing! I didn't experienced wobble but found the riding height influencing the steering a lot, see my experience on the second page of this topic, dated April 19, 2022. Thanks.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

23 hours ago, Jonathan Reeve said:

I think you'd better read the details for yourself, but as far as I can see the Airsprings are series 14 - so perhaps cannot have been earlier than 1920? - and the patents run up to 1916. I also uploaded another image of the airspring with its two side oilers that release oil into the space round the piston on the downstroke. I don't think the front perforated vent does anything, correct me if I'm wrong, Frank!

Thanks a lot, Jonathan.

1. I read Series 14, same as on mine, and the latest patent Oct. 29, 1918. That would match with your Packards built date: You said it's a Dec. 1919 car? Do you have reason to believe or do you a confirmation that your car was deleivered with these springs already?

I am now quite sure my Loco was delivered without and upgraded in the period of 1919-1921, not later. Air springs, 35" wheels instead of 37", the crankshaft damper, the Berling magneto instead of the Bosch. Several indications for that. A later date of modification would probably have resulted in baloon tires on 20" rims (then maybe without air springs) and a twin distributor coil ignition?

2. I have not figured out the purpose and function of that breather because I can't observe it while driving 🙂

According to this drawing, it seems to be only a breather for the change in volume if the outer piston moves up and down.

[Jonathan Reeve]

Thanks Frank. I was told by Packard expert Howard Schaevitz that Packard disapproved of the fitting of Airsprings so they would never have been fitted by Packard. My 3-35 was owned by Mr and Mrs John Marshall Slaton for as long as they lived (ex Georgia Governor Slaton lived until 1955). So your question becomes did Westinghouse have an Airspring fitting station in Atlanta where they spent the rest of their lives? I discovered that Houston Street where it was located (see your earlier post) has been renamed John Wesley Dobbs and it looks like a car park has replaced the Westinghouse facility. Despite Packard's reported disapproval, 30% of the surviving fixed head Twin Sixes on packardsonline.com appear to have airsprings, but only one touring is so equipped. Mrs Sally Slaton was a founding member of the Daughters of the American Revolution Atlanta chapter (the second oldest in the Union) so would have needed to get around for meetings, both of the DAR and also of the American Red Cross, both organisations sharing the same founder (Clara Barton). The Red Cross sent ex Governor Slaton to Romania in 1917 from where all the French (who had a Military Mission in Jassy) and American Red Cross civilians had to make a rapid escape together by train through Russia (as Lenin made peace with Germany) during its civil war. The Slatons were eventually re-united after the Jassy escapees reached England via Murmansk (then in northern Finland) after a hair-raising rail journey reported in the Red Cross Magazine. The Packard purchase followed. Slaton was later made a chevalier (knight) of the French Legion d'Honneur in 1935, a singular honour for a foreigner implying he had been a hero in Romania - but I have yet to discover the citation. 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Jonathan Reeve
to answer correctly Frank's questions (see edit history)

[Jonathan Reeve]

On 7/14/2023 at 5:50 PM, Ittenbacher Frank said:

Thanks a lot, Jonathan.

1. I read Series 14, same as on mine, and the latest patent Oct. 29, 1918. That would match with your Packards built date: You said it's a Dec. 1919 car? Do you have reason to believe or do you a confirmation that your car was deleivered with these springs already?

I am now quite sure my Loco was delivered without and upgraded in the period of 1919-1921, not later. Air springs, 35" wheels instead of 37", the crankshaft damper, the Berling magneto instead of the Bosch. Several indications for that. A later date of modification would probably have resulted in baloon tires on 20" rims (then maybe without air springs) and a twin distributor coil ignition?

2. I have not figured out the purpose and function of that breather because I can't observe it while driving 🙂

According to this drawing, it seems to be only a breather for the change in volume if the outer piston moves up and down.

Frank, as mentioned earlier my breather E is non-functional; but this means that lubricant gets sucked in instead of air when the outer piston moves down if (as in the case of my series 14s) there are lubricators connected to the same space as breather E in the diagram. Thanks for helping me understand that mystery! 

[alsfarms]

Jonathan,

This really goes without saying, but what did you find in the one way breather "E" that has rendered it non functional? In the case of your Packard, what is the total travel/movement you will see in your air shock?

Al

[Jonathan Reeve]

Al, your question 1: I found that the connection had not been drilled. Your question 2 I cannot answer yet because I have yet to take it on the road

[Jonathan Reeve]

I have now travelled 10 miles at up to 30 mph on sealed but somewhat rough two lane roads to get my Packard third series Twin six (pictured previously) tested by the authorities. It passed its test and here are my preliminary and subjective observations on the ride quality delivered by my restored Mk 14 Air Springs on this first outing. Compared to my slightly lighter second series T6 touring fitted with Gabriels, the ride was somewhat but not massively softer and a little firmer than on my 1938 Packard super 8 touring sedan with its balloon tyres at 35 lbs instead of the T6's 65-75. The car was very reassuringly controllable and responsive; we had made sure it had the correct castor at the front axle by ensuring the Westinghouse instructions for filling the air springs with air and shock absorber oil were followed exactly. At the end of the journey I had to make a sharp right turn into the garage; the Packard was left with a very few degrees of lean (perhaps 5?) to the left. For those who remember their school physics, this simply reminded us that the static coefficient of friction is usually higher than the dynamic coefficient. There appeared to be a very small oil leak from one rear shock.  The steering effort was similar to that on the second series and there was no tendency of the car to wander; on the contrary it ran true. I could report on my longer experience later in the summer if there is interest. I shall use it in local meets and the VSCC 90th anniversary gathering in August. Good luck to all who venture to restore their Air Shocks! I am glad I did.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Dear Jonathan, any news on your air springs? Still working well? I changed oil once more on mine and they hold pressure quite well. When one of the rear springs was slightly leaking (half of an inch after a week), I found the big seal under the filling valve not properly tightened, that was all.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

On 6/14/2024 at 5:15 PM, Ittenbacher Frank said:

Dear Jonathan, any news on your air springs? Still working well? I changed oil once more on mine and they hold pressure quite well. When one of the rear springs was slightly leaking (half of an inch after a week), I found the big seal under the filling valve not properly tightened, that was all.

Dear Jonathan, this year's season comes to its end. How is the progress on your side? Hope you had the chance to enjoy your Packard?

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Recently I found more documentation about the Westinghouse air springs. This publication from late 1915 or 1916

[Ittenbacher Frank]

In this booklet I find two car brands using the air springs which I had not seen before:

[Ittenbacher Frank]

It is interesting to see which manufacturer allowed them to advertise their springs, but even more interesting are the manufacturers NOT listed (like Packard!).

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Here is one piece of information which I want to share, with the kind request to all of you for support: See the list of installation stations and licensed agencies.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Is there a chance to find documents or proof in one of these locations where and when my Loco Tourer (M7, car number 11371) has been equipped with the Westinghouse springs? I assume it was between 1918 and 1920. Perhaps the order was placed by a customer, or by the Locomobile factory in connection with their exchange car policy? Any suggestions? Ideas? Looking for the needle in several haystacks.

[prewarnut]

Frank,

   Just as another data point, from the address on the advertising it looks like Westinghouse was using space on the top floor at Smedley which I believe was a shipping agent. The building still stands and is located on State Street in New Haven close to the railroad station and port for marine shipping. There are not now (and I believe were not then) any factories in this area of town. Like other advertisers their true location and scope of manufacturing is a little hidden from the public. I don't know if this means Westinghouse only assembled components or had other manufacturers design for them. While not an expert I believe at this time (1920s) Westinghouse was chiefly a manufacturer of large steam engines for electric power and had not yet developed their consumer products division of home electrical appliances. Or, I may be completely wrong as I am linking this company with the conglomerate started by George Westinghouse in Pittsburgh - is it a different company?

 

[Rod P]

Thank you Frank for this topic. I have seen them before a couple of times, and wasn't sure what function they did. Know I know.

[Jonathan Reeve]

Hi Frank, we are currently de-bugging the Packard; nearly everything works well (including the air-springs) but it looks like the lengthy rebuild of the body has provided time for the thermostat to stick shut.

Interestingly, the booklet cover you posted has an unattributed image of a Packard-bodied 4 or 5/48 on the cover! At that time Packard were using Hartfords and would switch to Gabriels for the second series Twin six.

 

I've seen a longer list of Westinghouse air-spring stations, including one in Atlanta GA. presumably this was an earlier list.

 

Because the thermostat is off the car, I cannot tell you yet whether my 2-35 touring (with Gabriels) or 3-35 (with Westinghouses) rides better. We have a large supply of potholes on UK roads right now so amply future opportunity to do the comparison!

[Ittenbacher Frank]

3 hours ago, Jonathan Reeve said:

Hi Frank, we are currently de-bugging the Packard; nearly everything works well (including the air-springs) but it looks like the lengthy rebuild of the body has provided time for the thermostat to stick shut.

Interestingly, the booklet cover you posted has an unattributed image of a Packard-bodied 4 or 5/48 on the cover! At that time Packard were using Hartfords and would switch to Gabriels for the second series Twin six.

 

I've seen a longer list of Westinghouse air-spring stations, including one in Atlanta GA. presumably this was an earlier list.

 

Because the thermostat is off the car, I cannot tell you yet whether my 2-35 touring (with Gabriels) or 3-35 (with Westinghouses) rides better. We have a large supply of potholes on UK roads right now so amply future opportunity to do the comparison!

Would you like to share your list? The booklet I refer to is from 1915 or early 1916, I assume, because it mentiones a contest result from 1915, and one liscence plate shows the year 1914. A fascinating car, btw.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Dear Dan, thanks for the New Haven research.

They state "office and factory". I am confused. In the patent papers of 1919, Pennsylvania is mentioned.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

The little brochure about the "Junior" air springs which I showed at the end of page 2 and the beginning of page 3 of this topic was printed later, probably already in the 20s. It gives another hint:

[Ittenbacher Frank]

The assembly shop photos on page 2 are definitely showing a workshop in the real sense, not just an office building.

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Here is another information about George Westinghouse locations in 1912:

 

Edited October 20 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

Something I learned from books about George Westinghouse and his life:

- By 1910 George Westinghouse had started or was associated with 60 companies.

The Westinghouse Air Spring Company seems to have been one of them. Who knows more about it?

[Ittenbacher Frank]

When I was looking for the address of the production facility, I came across an interesting book written in 1918. It was a German who had the first idea for air springs in cars!

Edited October 20 by Ittenbacher Frank (see edit history)

[Ittenbacher Frank]

...and here is another book, written in 1921, telling the air-spring-story with Mr. Liebau from another direction, somehow part two!

[prewarnut]

Frank,

    I have found some period newspaper articles. I can understand from just a short look at this that he announced his invention about May 1910. He died in 1914. Interestingly in his will which was published he left stock to his wife but for someone who was involved in dozens of projects no other company or product is mentioned when he died. It seems from advertising that local dealers would order and install as local agents. He (or his heirs) aimed for luxury brands as noted in one ad. Note the Cadillac Phaeton ad of 1926 as well. If I see Elizabeth at the library on Wed I can see if she has a resource to investigate if he incorporated in CT and where.

- Dan.

[Jonathan Reeve]

My 1919 (Dec) Packard Imperial limo is now back on the road. One out of four Air Springs has a minor oil leak that hopefully will cure itself with further use. Other issues need to be fixed such as the degree of ignition advance before I can report on the benefits (or otherwise) of airsprings compared to Gabriels on a fixed head Packard Twin six