hidden_hunter Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 There’s been a few posts in the Victoria body style that I thought I’d take a copy from my Dykes book which claims these are the SAE definitions of bodies from 1922 Love looking at the old literature, thought you guys might like it 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 I love it! And thank you for posting this. Now, if only marketing would have stuck by and followed these descriptions? And what? No tourer (touring car)? I guess even in 1922 people and experts couldn't agree on the nomenclature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hidden_hunter Posted April 17, 2022 Author Share Posted April 17, 2022 42 minutes ago, wayne sheldon said: And what? No tourer (touring car)? Certainly wouldn’t be the first standard that ignores a popular term to side step contention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 Quite true. And certainly, these original records and articles need to be studied and considered in our research of the era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hidden_hunter Posted April 17, 2022 Author Share Posted April 17, 2022 2 hours ago, wayne sheldon said: And what? No tourer (touring car)? I just noticed in the footnote it says this The principal reason for recommending the use of the term "phaeton" instead of the term "touring" is that the latter has lost its significance as applying to any particular type of body as all types are used for touring. The term "phaeton" is used extensively in Europe, and to a considerable extent in America, in connection with passenger-cars; it is the name of a horse-drawn prototype; it is inelegant and in a technical sense is not distinctive of any particular type of motor vehicle body. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 Very interesting! I did not read far enough. And an interesting proposal and reasons by the automotive standards organization (SAE). Clearly it didn't catch on as so many manufacturers continued to refer to their such cars as touring cars. It is very interesting (at least to me?) that years ago, there was a big discussion around model A circles about Henry Ford referring to his open tourer type model A as a phaeton. This could be part of the reason for that then curious naming. Most people are not aware that Henry Ford was one of the founding members and proponents for the SAE and their standards (that around 1905!). Could it be that over twenty years later he decided to follow their lead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 Again, thank you for the initial post, and an enlightening discussion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hidden_hunter Posted April 17, 2022 Author Share Posted April 17, 2022 48 minutes ago, wayne sheldon said: Again, thank you for the initial post, and an enlightening discussion. I love collecting old literature, particularly the generalist stuff as it gives you a good comparison point between brands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George K Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 The SAE started 1905. Working on quantifying materials and engineering automobiles from it. Standardization was always a goal. Thanks for posting the Dykes Page. This paper is from the SAE 1921 Transactions part 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAKerry Posted April 19, 2022 Share Posted April 19, 2022 Very interesting. What would todays look like? 1 sedan, 1 SUV and 15 pickup versions? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted April 19, 2022 Share Posted April 19, 2022 On 4/17/2022 at 3:56 AM, hidden_hunter said: I just noticed in the footnote it says this The principal reason for recommending the use of the term "phaeton" instead of the term "touring" is that the latter has lost its significance as applying to any particular type of body as all types are used for touring. The term "phaeton" is used extensively in Europe, and to a considerable extent in America, in connection with passenger-cars; it is the name of a horse-drawn prototype; it is inelegant and in a technical sense is not distinctive of any particular type of motor vehicle body. That is copied verbatim from the 1926 SAE handbook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hidden_hunter Posted April 20, 2022 Author Share Posted April 20, 2022 14 hours ago, JV Puleo said: That is copied verbatim from the 1926 SAE handbook. This copy of Dykes is from 1922 so obviously had been annoying someone for a while 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Mead Posted April 21, 2022 Share Posted April 21, 2022 On 4/17/2022 at 3:56 AM, hidden_hunter said: I just noticed in the footnote it says this The principal reason for recommending the use of the term "phaeton" instead of the term "touring" is that the latter has lost its significance as applying to any particular type of body as all types are used for touring. The term "phaeton" is used extensively in Europe, and to a considerable extent in America, in connection with passenger-cars; it is the name of a horse-drawn prototype; it is inelegant and in a technical sense is not distinctive of any particular type of motor vehicle body. I’m confused. Is the SAE advocating the use of an inelegant, non distinctive name for a 5 place open body ? Or have I forgotten the proper use of a semi colon ? My Dad was a Carriage collector and I cut my eye teeth on the Carriage Journal of the CCA while Hemmings was still a little book and Antique Automobile was printed sideways. Phaeton, Stanhope, Victoria and Box are basically seat designs. It’s a stretch to extend the name Phaeton to a Touring car. They are really Extension Top Surreys if anything. But the bottom line on Carriage nomenclature is just like Automobiles. About every 20 years the populous or the ad men changed or embellished the meanings. So it’s sort of a fools game to pigeon hole any particular style into a name other than what the manufacturer called it. My 2 cents… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hidden_hunter Posted April 21, 2022 Author Share Posted April 21, 2022 6 minutes ago, Jim Mead said: I’m confused. Is the SAE advocating the use of an inelegant, non distinctive name for a 5 place open body ? Or have I forgotten the proper use of a semi colon ? I’m guessing someone had a bee in their bonnet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRA Posted April 21, 2022 Share Posted April 21, 2022 I am not historian, but Sales&Marketing departments seem to be the driving force to define body names from the 1920s on. I believe, in early teens the technical nomenclature was more respected. Interesting to see the creativity of manufacturers to boost sales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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