Judged or Display Only

[George Cole]

Obviously with so many questions being posted regarding judging classes, others besides me are confused about the seemingly endless number of entry classes.  After going through the list several times, I decided I didn't want my recently purchased 1947/1948 Jaguar Mark IV to be judged at the Melbourne Winternationals show.  (I felt I didn't need judges telling me the headlight lenses were mis-matched, or it has an incorrect air cleaner, or the paint is chipped,  or whatever else that I already know.)  However, even for display, it appeared I had to chose an entry category, so I selected one at random.  Surprise, surprise, surprise...when I checked into the show, I found a 'First Junior' windshield placard and a judging form in my packet.  I put a large sign on the windshield, 'DISPLAY ONLY, NOT FOR JUDGING."  Low and behold, when the team of judges arrived, against my objections, they insisted the car had to be judged as it was on their sheet.  One of them insisted I open the hood, which I hadn't planned to do, as he immediately told me I was missing an exhaust manifold stud...which I already knew.  So they judged it and placed a 'JUDGED' sticker on my placard.  I have no idea of the outcome, and really don't care, other than perhaps now being stuck in whatever category they judged my car in, and no longer being considered for a 'First Junior' category...IF I decide in the future i want it judged.  The confusion and confrontation left a bad taste in my mouth and makes me question whether I'll enter any more AACA shows.  

[Ron Green]

Same here. Paperwork was filled out and came back as do not judge. Got to show field and the first junior paper and judging sheet was in the folder. Marked do not judge across it (per the judge) and placed it on the windshield plus talked to the judge who was there early checking fire extinguishers. Was told the car (Amphicar) was taken off the judged list. Went looking at the vehicles and came back and it was judged per my neighbors and the sticker. Unsure where the disconnect was?

 

After 22 years of showing numerous vehicles in AACA clear up to the grand national senior status I will no longer have a vehicle judged. The meet was a very organized fun event with many great people as usual. We are glad we went. We are here for a Amphicar event in Leesburg with 15 of our amphi friends so we decided to attend this meet and glad we did. 

[ted sweet]

why didnt he enter dpc?

[MCHinson]

George,

Obviously they should have abided by your wishes to not have the car judged. With that said, there is no significant harm incurred. You will have either won a First Junior, or you may have won a Second Junior, or a 3rd Junior.

 

The Team Captain should have checked with the Chief  Judge and the Chief Judge should have made sure that the car was treated as Display Only. If you did not win a First Junior, you can easilly change to DPC for future meets if you wish, or you can let the VP of Class Judging know that you wish to only be Display Only in the future and I am sure that he will take care of the issue. Judging is conducted by and run by human beings. Human beings occasionally make mistakes.

[George Cole]

19 hours ago, MCHinson said:

George,

Obviously they should have abided by your wishes to not have the car judged. With that said, there is no significant harm incurred. You will have either won a First Junior, or you may have won a Second Junior, or a 3rd Junior.

 

The Team Captain should have checked with the Chief  Judge and the Chief Judge should have made sure that the car was treated as Display Only. If you did not win a First Junior, you can easilly change to DPC for future meets if you wish, or you can let the VP of Class Judging know that you wish to only be Display Only in the future and I am sure that he will take care of the issue. Judging is conducted by and run by human beings. Human beings occasionally make mistakes.

I seriously doubt I won anything.  I wound up in a class with a 1957 & 1964 Cadillac, and a 1984 & 1996 Rolls Royce.  All 4 appeared to be in meticulous condition.  I gave the Jag a quick wash and wax before hitting the road Saturday morning.  Didn't even have time to polish the chrome or vacuum the carpets.  In comparison, my Jag was probably not even an afterthought...which is why I didn't want it judged.

[Restorer32]

I don't understand why you are pi**ed.  No harm done.  There is always one and only one class your car could be shown in.  You have no choice if you enter it in class competition.  I do not have a rules book handy but I suspect your car was in the "Prestige Vehicles" class.  Why would anyone just randomly pick a class? Better your car was judged in error than not judged by mistake.  If you decide to seriously compete for an award you can do so at any time in the future. Judges generally abide by owner's desire to not have their car judged but again what [possible harm was done?

[George Cole]

4 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

I don't understand why you are pi**ed.  No harm done.  There is always one and only one class your car could be shown in.  You have no choice if you enter it in class competition.  I do not have a rules book handy but I suspect your car was in the "Prestige Vehicles" class.  Why would anyone just randomly pick a class? Better your car was judged in error than not judged by mistake.  If you decide to seriously compete for an award you can do so at any time in the future. Judges generally abide by owner's desire to not have their car judged but again what [possible harm was done?

That's my question.  What harm was done? Because it's now been judged, I suspect I'll never be able to enter as a FIRST JUNIOR again...if I someday want to. 

 

I never said I was pi**ed, but that it left a bad taste in my mouth.  I correlate that to more being displeased rather than pi**ed. But now we're playing semantics.

[Restorer32]

Unless you won the First Junior you can certainly enter the car for judging again.  If you win a Third Junior or a Second Junior or no award at all you can keep showing the car until you receive the First Junior Award.  After you receive the First Junior you will compete for the Senior Award then the Grand National Award if you successfully win the Senior Award.

[Phillip Cole]

Pat has posted the winners on the AACA website and above on Shows and Tours. None of us Coles are on there.

So, George, you and your Jag are fine.  Nice unrestored car, BTW. 

Edited February 28, 2022 by Phillip Cole
additions (see edit history)

[George Cole]

Regardless of whether it won an award or not, there's still confusion with the judging classes.  A 1946/1947/1948 Jaguar Mark IV Saloon is a CCCA Full Classic.  But it's not listed in any of the Class 29 CCCA subcategories.  It seems it should be included in Class 19E with other post-war Full Classics...but it's not.  It is quasi-listed in Class 29 as a Specified Prestige Vehicle.  But the lack of punctuation in the paragraph confuses everything.  It specifically states "Jaguar Mark IV Jaguar Mark V drop head coupe", but says nothing about the saloon cars.  Both models of the Mark IV are CCCA Full Classics, but neither model of the Mark V is.  So by lumping the Mark IV and Mark V DHC's together and failing to recognize the saloon cars, I'm still left to wonder exactly what class I should have used.  And in all fairness, a 1947 Jaguar should not be judged against a 1996 Rolls Royce.  There is no comparison whatsoever.  But that's what happened.

[MCHinson]

I assume it was entered and judged in Class 29 which is for "SPECIFIED PRESTIGE VEHICLES Post-war vehicles built to appeal to the upscale"

 

The Judging guidelines specifically show Jaguar Mark IV as being in Class 29.  "Jaguar Mark IV" is listed on a line by itself. The following line lists "Jaguar Mark V drop head coupe".  I am not a Jaguar expert, so there may be other Jaguar's that might also be appropriate for the class, but those are the only two  specific Jaguars listed in Class 29.

 

If the car is an unrestored original car, it might be more appropriate to enter it in HPOF, or maybe DPC if it is not original enough for HPOF, if that is your choice. You can probably find an experienced AACA Judge near you who could look the car over and give you some advice on which might be most appropriate for the car.    

[Oldsmobile 83]

George,

Another option would be to contact the VP - Judging to question classification.  In addition, you can ask him to send you the list of deductions that were taken for your vehicle at the show.  

Stan Kulikowski

VP-Judging

636 Lincoln Rd. Lititz, PA 17543

 

Tim

[Phillip Cole]

Matthew and Oldsmobile83 are giving good advice... and I suspect that no one has ever sought to show a Mark 5 Saloon in class 29. After all,  they are relatively rare.

 

The way to have a car included in class 29 is to put in a request (there is a form) that it be in that class. The VP of Judging would guide the request through the class committee. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Phillip Cole
Addition (see edit history)

[George Cole]

7 hours ago, MCHinson said:

I assume it was entered and judged in Class 29 which is for "SPECIFIED PRESTIGE VEHICLES Post-war vehicles built to appeal to the upscale"

 

The Judging guidelines specifically show Jaguar Mark IV as being in Class 29.  "Jaguar Mark IV" is listed on a line by itself. The following line lists "Jaguar Mark V drop head coupe".  I am not a Jaguar expert, so there may be other Jaguar's that might also be appropriate for the class, but those are the only two  specific Jaguars listed in Class 29.

 

If the car is an unrestored original car, it might be more appropriate to enter it in HPOF, or maybe DPC if it is not original enough for HPOF, if that is your choice. You can probably find an experienced AACA Judge near you who could look the car over and give you some advice on which might be most appropriate for the car.    

Yes, as the Jaguar Mark IV was not listed anywhere else, I did enter it in Class 29.  But as I stated above, Jaguar Mark IV and Mark V are included with all others there with no punctuation.  In the on-line catalog.  They are not on separate lines.  The entire class is one entire run-on sentence, which creates the confusion.  Unfortunately it's in PDF format so I cannot cut and paste it here to show that, but here is the link:

 

http://www.traaca.com/images/2019 AACA Vehicle Classification List.pdf#:~:text=The AACA Board of Directors in 2000 established,of ownership of a DPC vehicle requires recertification.

 

Although similar in appearance, the Mark IV and Mark V are 2 completely different cars.  One is a pre-war design and recognized by CCCA as a Full Classic, and the other is not.  AACA does not recognize that difference in their class categories.  As a CCCA Full Classic, the Mark IV should be in Class 19e.

 

5 hours ago, Oldsmobile 83 said:

George,

Another option would be to contact the VP - Judging to question classification.  In addition, you can ask him to send you the list of deductions that were taken for your vehicle at the show.  

Stan Kulikowski

VP-Judging

636 Lincoln Rd. Lititz, PA 17543

 

Tim

Yes Tim, I do intend to contact the AACA judging VP to try and get the Mark IV properly classified.  Thank you for providing his contact information. 

Regards,

George

[MCHinson]

3 hours ago, George Cole said:

Yes, as the Jaguar Mark IV was not listed anywhere else, I did enter it in Class 29.  But as I stated above, Jaguar Mark IV and Mark V are included with all others there with no punctuation.  In the on-line catalog.  They are not on separate lines.  The entire class is one entire run-on sentence, which creates the confusion.  Unfortunately it's in PDF format so I cannot cut and paste it here to show that, but here is the link:

 

http://www.traaca.com/images/2019 AACA Vehicle Classification List.pdf#:~:text=The AACA Board of Directors in 2000 established,of ownership of a DPC vehicle requires recertification.

 

Although similar in appearance, the Mark IV and Mark V are 2 completely different cars.  One is a pre-war design and recognized by CCCA as a Full Classic, and the other is not.  AACA does not recognize that difference in their class categories.  As a CCCA Full Classic, the Mark IV should be in Class 19e.

 

Yes Tim, I do intend to contact the AACA judging VP to try and get the Mark IV properly classified.  Thank you for providing his contact information. 

Regards,

George

I can see why you were confused by what you were looking at. You need to get the class listing from the correct source. The one you linked to is not from the Judging Guidelines which is available online. Whoever created that pdf screwed up the formatting when they copied and pasted from the Judging Guidelines and created it. (the formatting of the online judging guidelines is a bit difficult to copy and paste from) It is also 3 years old. If you check the correct online listing in the Judging Guidelines on the AACA website, you will see the error, and why I said it is listed on a single line by itself. https://aaca.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/AACA_2022_Judging_Guidelines.pdf  Go to page 107 of the .pdf and you will see the correctly formatted current description of Class 29. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by MCHinson (see edit history)

[real61ss]

Ron Green, I'm the guy who was setting behind you at Melbourne that told you they judged your car. You got a 1st Jr. congratulations

[Ron Green]

I saw you also received your 1st junior congratulations. Your Ford was beautiful. I will be knocking the car back to a do not judge status when I get back to PA in April. Like I said above I will no longer have any of my vehicles judged. Getting ready to take it out and through the Mount Dora canal later today as this car gets used and used hard.

[61polara]

George

I'm sorry that you had problems at the Melbourne show, but I believe you also contribute to some of the confusion.  You say in your first post that you were unsure what class to show your car, so you selected one at random.  But now you seem unhappy because it was placed in Class 29, Prestige Vehicles rather than in Class 19E Classic Cars.  Class 29 was created in part to recognize cars with attributes much like cars accepted by CCCA but that are not accepted by CCCA.  Your Mark IV was not accepted by CCCA at the time AACA recognized it for Class 29.  I do see that CCCA now accepts the Mark IV as a full Classic.  Class 19 is for those cars recognized by CCCA, I agree that 19E would be the appropriate class rather than Class 29.  As you did not win an award at Melbourne, you can register it for Class 19E the next time you show it in an AACA Nationals.

 

As far as the Do Not Judge status, there is a box to check on the registration form, which will place the car in a Do Not Judge status.  Either you did not check that box or if you mailed in a hard copy form, the person entering it failed to place the check mark in the system.  When you arrive at a National and pick up your packet and see a problem such as wrong class or that it is registered to be judge and you do not want it judged, it's simple to find Judges Administration and have it corrected before judging starts.  These changes can be made until just before judging starts.

 

I don't know if your car was judged on the field or not.  The JUDGED sticker placed on your windshield card only indicates that the judging team had addressed your car since it had a windshield card for a car to be judged.  This is used by the Chief Judge to determine that all cars on the field were addressed.

 

George, this is not being critical of you, but rather to address your situation and help you have a better experience at your next AACA National.

[George Cole]

On 3/3/2022 at 11:29 AM, 61polara said:

George

Your Mark IV was not accepted by CCCA at the time AACA recognized it for Class 29.  I do see that CCCA now accepts the Mark IV as a full Classic. 

Jaguar Mark IV cars have been recognized by CCCA as Full Classics since September, 1986, when they announced they were including post-war cars which were based on a pre-war design.

[George Cole]

This morning I sent a request to the V.P. of Judging for Jaguar Mark IV cars to be included in Class 19E. I enclosed a 1 January 2022 copy of the CCCA List of Approved Full Classics.

[61polara]

11 hours ago, George Cole said:

This morning I sent a request to the V.P. of Judging for Jaguar Mark IV cars to be included in Class 19E. I enclosed a 1 January 2022 copy of the CCCA List of Approved Full Classics.

George, I'm glad that you did this.  I will be talking to the VP of Class Judging next week on other topics and had added this to my discussion list.  Your car is a Class 19E vehicle because all CCCA approved cars are included in Class 19 but it is still on the list for accepted Class 29 cars.  

[George Cole]

7 hours ago, 61polara said:

George, I'm glad that you did this.  I will be talking to the VP of Class Judging next week on other topics and had added this to my discussion list.  Your car is a Class 19E vehicle because all CCCA approved cars are included in Class 19 but it is still on the list for accepted Class 29 cars.  

Thanks.  I sent it USPS, so he may not receive it until later in the week.  I'm interested in hearing his response.