barriers to entry

[rodlars]

This topic is derived from discussion on the young members thread. I think one significant barrier preventing younger people from getting too interested in the hobby is the price of NOS parts as of late. I currently live and breathe Mopar muscle cars so I will cite this as my example.<P>A trip to the Mopar Nationals leaves the parts shopper with two distinct yet diametrically opposed feelings. 1) Everything is here! 2) STICKER SHOCK!!!!!! For example, an air cleaner for a Duster 340 could be had for about 40 bucks less than 10 years ago but now cannot be had for less than $150. Two points to consider here, there are no fewer of these things at the swap meet, and there has not been a flood of restored Dusters/Darts/Demons suddenly show up on the scene, resulting in a spike in demand for parts.<P>There seems to be a growing trend towards speculators making the Mopar hobby a business for themselves. It disgusts me to hear stories of guys cruising the smaller swap meets and buying up every NOS part in sight, whether required or not. Sure they are willing to part with their newfound treasures, but for a 500% price increase? Please! Yes I know that they are providing a service of sorts by centralizing these items so one doesn't have to chase here and there for stuff but some of their attitudes tend to be a little smug. A friend of mine was looking for a single hemi-coded rim for his Road Runner to use as a spare, found one, and the guy says, "$200 bucks firm chief, and I own all of them". And the sad truth was, he did.<P>Bottom line. Outrageous prices can be a quick and easy turn-off to anyone considering applying some tlc to a neglected Mopar. My own personal solution was easy enough, I only consider "done" cars now. The $1500 project simply represents an endless money pit.<P>That's my rant. Nothing personal against these "business" vendors, I mean its not like you are breaking any laws or anything. Just not a very nice feeling to have the proverbial gun put to one's head.<P>That's the story in Moparville. How are things in the other camps?<P>

[Guest]

Whats new,pure greed is the american way of life.Like the old saying "if you want to play you have got to pay".It doesn,t seem fair,but life is is not fair.

[Guest]

I argee the price of parts is very high, and makes it hard for a young person on a limited buget to fix up a car. One of the problems is supply and demand. As we all know, when the demand for parts is high and the supply is low, the price is also high, Thats life. I tend to argee with you on the speculator issue though. Some guys are in it for the money, and the only way to treat them is not buy from them. It's a shame when they have the market cornered, but there isn't much you can do except refuse to deal with them. Maybe if they get hungry enough, they'll realize their overcharging and lower prices to acceptable levels. Remember part of the blame is the consumer. As long as someone is willing to pay those high prices, the sellers are going to take advantage of the situation. Greed prevails unfortunately.<P>------------------<BR>tsauto@v35.com<BR>AACA member, Pottstown Region<BR>'60 TR-3

[Guest]

As a relative youngster (39) and an observer of the attitudes of the older Generation X-ers, I feel that what you are describing seems common to all phases of the "old" car hobby ("old" to me is anything made before I was born), not just Mopars. But as folks in this age group experience near-instant success in their stock and dot.com endeavors, it seems that the "buy low; sell high--REALLY high" attitude carries over into what used to be viewed as a relaxing hobby. It's almost like "if I can't make scads of dough at it, it's not worth my royal time." <P>However, you make take some slight comfort in this: that sort of attitude is more than likely to be returned in full measure. Because this is hobby for perhaps 75% of its participants, much of what happens is based on goodwill and mutual friendship; therefore, the "win-at-all-cost" types tend to receive in the long run the same treatment they dish out. I am personally acquainted with many folks--old and young--in the Model T sector of the hobby who would rather give or trade needed parts than make a one-time "killing." These folks sense that their generosity will be returned to them in some fashion, and, you know--they're usually right. <P>So take heart: there are a ton of good folks out there and in my firmly held opinion they outnumber the sharks. Those highly-priced pieces may simply end up in an estate sale and when their owners realize that, and that they're not having much fun in the ill-will generated by their attitudes, things will loosen up. The important thing is that YOU cultivate a good attitude and enjoy yourself. I'll just bet that at some point, you will own something that one of the sharks wants badly............

[ronbarn]

RV - very insightful and I absolutely agree with your comments. With your type of perspective I hope you register and join us on this DF more often.

[Guest]

Thanks, Fr. Ron. I have accepted your kind invitation and look forward to tapping into the wisdom and insight of the other posters. Thanks also for the time you and others put into this BB's maintenance; it's no small effort, I know.

[Guest]

Rodlars: My interpretation and enjoyment of the hobby is a recent case at Hershey.<P>We all have a sense of first impressions. A very nice group of people from Harrisonburg, VA came up to my 1972 TR-6 and told me they are restoring one, albeit, slowly. <P>I started thinking a few days after the meet, about various parts, all useable, of which, I took off and replaced ONLY to clean up the appearance. <P>Today, I had them sent UPS to these folks, only because I felt good that I could help fellow hobbist'. This is not patting myself on the back. These parts were stored for 3-7 years, and, I know I will never need them.<P>Peter J.<P>------------------<BR>heizmann<BR>senior member

[Dave@Moon]

Peter, my TR6 project is going on 11 years now! If you've got anything left.... <P>I've only been in this hobby for a little over 20 years, but I seem to remember a time when the authenticity of a car was more important than it's level of perfection. It is this constant upward shift in the accepted standard for show cars that I see as the driving force for our inflation problems. I would've never believed in 1975 that 1957 Chevy trailer queens would've ever become commonplace, let alone to have it happen so quickly. I remember seeing antiques with silver-painted bumpers at judged car shows, I doubt anyone would dare do that today.<P>Also, particularly within marque clubs, the definition of "authenticity" keeps becoming more and more restrictive. Did <I> anybody </I> check wheel codes on spare tires (as rodlars just alluded to) for any car before 1980? Correct size and style was what I was raised on. In Bloomington Gold judging for some Corvettes there's a 1 point deduction for failing to put an inspector's chalk mark on the right taillight, something that almost never even made it to the dealer let alone survived dealer prep! ( It does rain on these things once and a while, you know!)<P>I know when this hobby became so competition oriented, it was during the "Have It All" '80's. (Yes, I know there were earlier examples, but in general the simplification holds.) My question is why. Why do we drive ourselves so? Why is it so important to some of us to <I> prove </I> our car is better than the next guys? <P>The car is the trophy. The trailer is it's (and your) prison. After a while, we're all just making ships in bottles here. <P>Very expensive ones.

[rodlars]

RV: I think your point has a great deal of validity. I often enjoy looking through my old muscle car magazines from the 80's and check out the auction results. Many cars were selling much more then as compared to now. Speculators had jumped into the market en masse and drove up prices based simply on greed. Eventually, the true enthusiasts were priced out of the market and as the speculators became bored with these high-maintenance investments, they dumped them just to get rid of them and once again the cars fell into the hands of owners who truly appreciated them. Hopefully this will also happen with the parts stashes as you mentioned. There are some vendors I just don't visit anymore and I don't think I'm the only one with this sentiment. I also love it when a quality repro hits the market and these hoarders are left holding the bag as the bottom falls out of the price. Just have to be patient I guess.<P>Re: trailer queens<P>For the first time ever, I am the proud owner of a "queen" and I beleive it has its merits. Even when not showing it, I just enjoy the look of a super clean car. It still gets driven to local shows and cruise nights and makes good use of its diet of 100 octane fuel If the trip is out of town or requires me to traverse the nearby interstates of Detroit, MI, on to the trailer it goes but I still manage to have a good time. Must admit that I am shopping for a "driver" to fill that extra garage space though.<BR>

[Guest]

Gee, rodlars, I'm guilty of that myself. I reproduce many parts and some tools for the Model T, and I remember at Hershey last year ('99), a fellow was selling some fairly scarce items at ludicrous--and I do mean absolutely unreal--prices. I just happened to be looking over the stuff in amazement when another T guy delightedly picked up one of the parts, expressing his happiness that at last he'd found one, and the look of shock that replaced his smile when he heard the price was something to see. But the grin that returned, as he walked dejectedly away, when I caught up with him and told him that I had just gotten these pieces into show-quality production was even more priceless. No doubt the vendor's originals are still for sale.

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

Ships in bottles:<P>You guys may have seen this before, but it was my first. I was at the Charlotte Auto Fair last month. There was a vendor selling huge plastic bags to put your car in. It had a fan to keep it inflated, similar to these "Moonwalk" things kids play in at local fairs. My first impression was that it was a device to enforce the "Look but don't touch" policy. I then realized it was made to store your vehicle.

[Terry Bond]

As usual, lots of good stuff here - about the guy who owns all the special coded Hemi wheels - I'll bet he'd be surprised to learn that AACA Judges don't check those numbers - so that's a few less potential cusomers. Yes, judging can get kinda silly for some of the single marque organizations and no doubt about it, looking inside the wheel rim for the right part numbers has helped drive the price of that stuff sky high. It can be a serious turn off. I'm a Model T guy too and there are lots of folks who are willing to help just for the satisfaction of helping and getting (or keeping) another car on the road. Ive found the "Model T" way of helping to be very common tho within AACA Regions. Here in Tidewater Region we've got a lot of folks who will open their shop and parts bins for fellow club members without asking a dime in return. Ive seen several Region newsletters that regularly run special sections listing "Hobby Helpers" - members who are willing and able to assist. Our Regions are the best place for help, advice, and even parts and equipment. Its always been the best place to share our hobby.<BR>For Rodlars - congrats on the trailer queen - Im sure you'll agree that the only difference between a "driver" and a "Trailer Queen" is the amount of work needed to keep em clean!<BR>And - Model A Hal's post on the car bag - I actually had someone ask me to invest in a similar business once. It just didn't seem to make sense - first off, the way Im always moving stuff around the garage I'd have the darned thing so full of patches it'd be too heavy to pump up. And, when fully inflated it takes up so much extra room I'd have to leave at least one car parked outside along with all the expensive modern iron.<BR>Terry