Where old cars go to die.......A Pierce Arrow comes to the end of the road.

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

 

Smartest thing you have posted  in a long time.   

 

There are lots of ways to enjoy the hobby without trying to resurrect some car that they made 3k of and a nice one is attainable for 1/4 the money and effort.

 

One way to enjoy the hobby at little to no cost........get your buddy to buy a cool car and leave it with you to sort out, No capital expenditures, and you get the enjoyment of ownership and use.......just keep telling him it has a “few small issues” so you can keep it ten times longer than anticipated.......just like a restoration shop. Works for me! 😏

Edited January 15, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsancle]

7 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

One way to enjoy the hobby at little to no coat........get your buddy to buy a cool car and leave it with you to sort out, No capital expenditures, and you get the enjoyment of ownership and use.......just keep telling him it has a “few small issues” so you can keep it ten times longer than anticipated.......just like a restoration shop. Works for me! 😏

 

Eddy,  you know me.  My mind has already wandered somewhere else and I forgot about that until right now.

[1937McBuick]

A lack of common sense is expensive.

Niavity is expensive.

Pride is expensive.

Absolute trust in other people(unrelated) is expensive.

Dreams are expensive.

Being a door mat is expensive....

 

Let's get back to salvaging Pierce Arrows.

Didn't intend to derail the tread.

[1937McBuick]

27 minutes ago, edinmass said:

The car hobby is the same as playing the slots............one in a million get lucky, the rest are dumping cash for entertainment with no expectations of a return. Nothing wrong with going upside down in a car....as long as you realize it. People spend money on golf, 2500 dollar bottles of wine, hotels that are 3000 a night. And they don’t expect anything but the enjoyment and experience...........why should a car be different?

 

Being careful of your “in and out” cost on a car is a reasonable concern. Most any car is probably serviced and maintained will hold it’s value in some reasonable way.

You make valid points Ed. 

And I need to drop the ROI mantra,  we all know in most cases there is none.   But I will never drop the concept of getting value for money spent,  knowing most projects are in over their roof lines,  lol.

 

ps,  "entertainment" is supposed to be enjoyable.  😉

[8E45E]

12 minutes ago, 1937McBuick said:

Being a door mat is expensive.....

Yep, according the wife you might be a door mat.  Get laid right the first time, and walked all over for the rest of your life!!

 

Craig

[60FlatTop]

The evolution of this topic has been entertaining. Reading between the lines gives food for thought.

 

My Mom was a big Kenny Rogers fan. This is not Kenny but could indicate why she liked him.

 

The song applies.

The father of one of my good friends in High School owned a Chevy car dealership. My friend owned a '57 Chevy and he had it at the dealership body shop getting a 427 Ford style hood scoop installed. One of the salesmen had his Pierce-Arrow convertible coupe in the shop at the same time. He was about 10 years older than us and that was in '65 or '66. We got quite a lecture about "wasting our time with those junks", frittering our lives away I guess. 55 years later the same advice would fall on my same deaf ears as it did many times from others with the same advice.

As I wrote above, the song applies, but I rarely threw away anything. Not when there was a buyer. I had my hobby I enjoyed immensely and the advice givers had their hobby.

 

 

[Guest]

On 1/13/2022 at 10:08 PM, 3macboys said:

I'm still waiting to find out what classic this is going to be resurrected as

 

 That's easy, it is almost a Toyota!

[AHa]

So how does Matt Harwood feel about the car that shall not be named? If a 12 cylinder Pierce is not worth putting back on the road, what is? Or, are we talking about two different things. In the old car hobby, there are lots of streams. The AACA has always been about judged cars and to bring a car up to judging standards is a time and money consuming proposition, which rarely returns a profit, but there are lots of cars that will never see a show field and are just as treasured. It takes a lot less work to make a car drive-able and enjoyable and a lot less money.

 

I can understand how a 12 cylinder Pierce can be worth more for parts than it is as a whole once it gets to a certain condition but the one who parted it out continually reminds us this is a hobby and not meant to be profitable. Whether a car gets restored or not should not be about profit by those standards. It's about preserving a piece of history and the joy and satisfaction of bringing it back. I can applaud the use of derelict cars to keep others on the road and at some point economics becomes the driving force by necessity. Is this really where we are?

[edinmass]

AHa.......you should buy a car because you like it. Not because it’s a good deal. Buy a 80 year old car that just finished a 1000 mile tour, and start it up the next day.......it may need an engine, clutch, or anything under the sun. It’s part of the hobby. After fifty years of hard lessons...........you get very discriminating with your purchases. I’m too old to restore cars now.........so I only grab stuff that I can live with condition wise. Mechanical work doesn’t bother me............a V-12 engine job is just an inconvenience.....and the time is always worse than the cost. More and more, I am only interested in windshield time..........shows do nothing for me now.

Edited January 15, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Walt G]

Just my perspective so far as making sense of anything that I adapted from the fellow who taught me how to do body work,paint cars etc in lacquer in the early 1970s when I was restoring my 41 Packard woody and then followed by my 31 Franklin Derham bodied victoria brougham ( worked doing that every weekend, holiday, vactaion day etc for over 2 years to get the cars done . He would often say " Every one has common sense, not everyone has good sense". I took that to heart and have seen it in all walks of life's experiences , thank you Bob Patchke.

[60FlatTop]

A group of two or more hobbyists will form a dogma.

[SC38dls]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

One way to enjoy the hobby at little to no cost........get your buddy to buy a cool car and leave it with you to sort out, No capital expenditures, and you get the enjoyment of ownership and use.......just keep telling him it has a “few small issues” so you can keep it ten times longer than anticipated.......just like a restoration shop. Works for me! 😏

Is this the car you have scheduled for a wreck next week. If so your enjoyment of driving will end, I would keep rescheduling the wreck for another week every week. 
dave s 

[edinmass]

The Stearns is on the back burner for a few more weeks........somebody left me a 851 SC Speedster to play with for a month. Nothing wrong with it. He just wants me to make a list of things that need attention or improvement.......so I get to put five hundred miles on it and don’t even need to turn a wrench........that what I call a bargain! I also recently pulled out a Jolly out of a garage on Palm Beach..........underpowered little golf cart..........still in the original owners hands...........I had more people ask me if it was for sale while driving it than you can shake a stick at..........and it’s rather ironic that a Fiat Jolly will bring more money than 85 percent of the Pierce Arrows that are on the road.......go figure.

[1912Staver]

If there is one car vs market price I don't understand it is the Fiat Jolly. More money than a Morgan +8, or Lotus super 7, for what ?

Edited January 15, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[alsancle]

A Messerschmitt KR200 is right there with the Jolly.

 

[Mark Wetherbee]

I’ve been reading along and I have to agree with both the “if it ain’t fun don’t do it” and the “only play what you don’t mind loosing” themes going on. It’s a gamble and I too have friends with much more expensive hobbies who just don’t get it…

 

Sad truth is that Ed and company are doing a great service to the availability of parts for the other cars that are salvageable even if those cars are not profitable… like mine! Yes I do not expect to even break even without adding the expense of restoration, but if it were suddenly worthless tomorrow I’d still enjoy driving it so who cares? I’m having fun with my albatross of a parts car as dad’s friends called it.

And I don’t get the fascination with the Fiat or Messerschmitt either, but someone does and good for them!

[edinmass]

19 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

If there is one car vs market price I don't understand it is the Fiat Jolly. More money than a Morgan +8, or Lotus super 7, for what ?

 

Easiest question I have ever answered here in more than 20 years.......... Why is a Fiat Jolly so expensive? Lots of people have more money than brains. Unfortunately, they don’t want the cars I collect. I was at a wedding recently that the invoice for the flowers was almost 200k. You got to love the rich......they keep us poor people employed.

[edinmass]

1 minute ago, Mark Wetherbee said:

I’ve been reading along and I have to agree with both the “if it ain’t fun don’t do it” and the “only play what you don’t mind loosing” themes going on. It’s a gamble and I too have friends with much more expensive hobbies who just don’t get it…

 

Sad truth is that Ed and company are doing a great service to the availability of parts for the other cars that are salvageable even if those cars are not profitable… like mine! Yes I do not expect to even break even without adding the expense of restoration, but if it were suddenly worthless tomorrow I’d still enjoy driving it so who cares? I’m having fun with my albatross of a parts car as dad’s friends called it.

And I don’t get the fascination with the Fiat or Messerschmitt either, but someone does and good for them!

 

Mark’s car is an example of what we rarely see anymore. Someone who jumps into the hobby with two feet, takes on a project, and actually finished the thing is a reasonable time frame. In other words......Mark gets it. One of our shop mottos.........shut up and get to work. Keep moving on it EVERY day. Never say die. Just do it. Mark pushed through and got it done..........Bravo! And, he has earned my respect. I look forward to seeing his car in person. 👍👍👍

[1937hd45]

2 hours ago, 1937McBuick said:

You make valid points Ed. 

And I need to drop the ROI mantra,  we all know in most cases there is none.   But I will never drop the concept of getting value for money spent,  knowing most projects are in over their roof lines,  lol.

 

ps,  "entertainment" is supposed to be enjoyable.  😉

Why do some people speak in acronyms? I had to look that up then come back to reread your post. 

[JV Puleo]

My late mother was extremely talented at what she called the "needle arts". She used to say "do something every day and eventually the job will be done". I've literally tried to do that...

 

As for that Fiat, I had to google it because I've never heard of it. I agree with 1912Staver, "Why?" Ed's answer has to be right on the money — not may of them and they appeal to a moneyed market with no appreciation for quality...it's all a way of just showing off.

Edited January 15, 2022 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Joe........It’s how the rich get their Jollies! 

[Walt G]

Austin Clark had  Fiat Jolly at his museum in Southampton,NY. Think I may have ridden in it once. NOW I can sort of understand why someone who may be into postwar cars would be interested due to the "cuteness" and lack of high production numbers, ease of storage ( they are smaller then a pre war car) . Austin had it as a novelty to show the full range of the history of cars. It was a bit smaller then his Pierce 66 raceabout , probably by about 4 or 5 feet in length. He would on occasion ride it down Main Street in Southampton so the summer resort beach crowd could be amused, but if we went to pay our respects to actor Gary Cooper ( whose grave is less the half a mile from where the museum was) we would be in his Type 35 Mercer or his Simplex speed car. The Fiat Jolly was much quieter then the Simplex speed car or the Mercer.......

[AdamInNH]

On 1/13/2022 at 3:47 PM, 1912Staver said:

I think what you are really saying Ed, is that the shortage is not the cars . But rather the most limiting things in many / most of our lives. Time, space and money. Having all three seems to be an increasingly rare thing.

All three? I’d settle for just one. 😉

[edinmass]

   On 1/13/2022 at 3:47 PM,  1912Staver said: 

I think what you are really saying Ed, is that the shortage is not the cars . But rather the most limiting things in many / most of our lives. Time, space and money. Having all three seems to be an increasingly rare thing.

 

 

Dump your cable TV, and you will have endless time to play with cars. 

[Matt Harwood]

3 hours ago, AHa said:

So how does Matt Harwood feel about the car that shall not be named? If a 12 cylinder Pierce is not worth putting back on the road, what is? Or, are we talking about two different things. In the old car hobby, there are lots of streams. The AACA has always been about judged cars and to bring a car up to judging standards is a time and money consuming proposition, which rarely returns a profit, but there are lots of cars that will never see a show field and are just as treasured. It takes a lot less work to make a car drive-able and enjoyable and a lot less money.

 

I can understand how a 12 cylinder Pierce can be worth more for parts than it is as a whole once it gets to a certain condition but the one who parted it out continually reminds us this is a hobby and not meant to be profitable. Whether a car gets restored or not should not be about profit by those standards. It's about preserving a piece of history and the joy and satisfaction of bringing it back. I can applaud the use of derelict cars to keep others on the road and at some point economics becomes the driving force by necessity. Is this really where we are?

I think my Lincoln is a little different--it was a running, driving car when I bought it. It had a ton of needs that were all hidden, but it wasn't what I would call a "project" car and certainly not a parts car. However, had it been in the condition it's in now (disassembled with a questionable engine) there's no way I would have bought it and it quite likely would have become a parts car. The basics are good (nice paint, nice interior, everything worked) but when the cost of the needs outweighs the value of the car, it becomes a passion project. Not many guys are passionate about big, frumpy sedans, unfortunately. They represent good value, but if you're dumping restoration money into a car, it had better be something that makes you tingle all over just thinking about it and [hopefully] something that justifies the expense. Sedans are nice because you can get a nice one for not a lot of cash (like my Lincoln) and have something impressive. But as soon as it starts nibbling on your wallet, the conversation changes instantly. Me? Right now? I'm just too far in to reasonably eject and I do like the car. I also have a problem with not finishing projects--it's an OCD thing.

 

That said, I'm still looking for a Lincoln K parts car. Anyone seen a pile of Lincoln laying around that needs to be dismantled?

 

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

It is 3 degrees here in the frozen wilds of western New York so the computer is a nice sitting spot. I look out and see the vapor from the furnace in my garage. It is maintain 40 and working at it so I will stay in here today.

 

On the original topic, here is a picture of a parts car that had been stripped and ready to crush by the previous owner. I bought it for $600 and found about $4,6000 worth of parts that ended up across the world. The last sale was earlier this year, the ten rear wheel lug nuts. I have two $20 trim pieces left. I ended up with a little walking around money, a few peaceful hours alone in the garage, time away from work, computer, and TV, Some time working in worldwide marketing, and I even brought cash flow into the United States from a couple of foreign countries. Who could ask for more? Owned and threw away the remains of a "Full Classic" with a capital C.

[1912Staver]

My biggest obstacle is space. With the emphasis on dry workshop space. I actually have a reasonable amount of mud. Life in the rain forest. But neither the wife or I like this property and have been attempting to move for a long time. House has some serious problems, a bit like your PA parts cars. It really needs the oldest 1/3 bulldozed  and rebuilt with a proper foundation. But the estimates we have received are close to $500,000.00. Around $100,000 of that is the significant upgrade to the septic and well that would be  a city  mandated condition of a substantial renovation.  It really only makes sense to sell this place to a developer and rebuy a different place with a existing , decent house. Construction costs in this area are out of this world.

The regional price bubble is always one jump ahead of us. The local newspaper pointed out a shocking fact last week now that the latest property assessments were mailed out. Average family income is right around $85,000.00 / year. And the average single family house went up $300,000.00 this year alone. Just the closing costs and property purchase tax end up being a little in excess of $100,000.00 Everyone is waiting for the bubble to burst , wife and myself included. Even renting some shop space is extremely expensive . I have seen several 25 or 30 x 40 or 50 buildings in the corner of someone's farmyard for rent. But they are all asking $2500 / month and up. And most don't want people doing car work.

 So I pick away on small things I can manage in my basement workshop.

Edited January 15, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

5 hours ago, alsancle said:

Btw,

 

As far as shops go,  anybody half decent can be is business till they day they die with more work than they want.    Somebody has to keep the cars running.   There are 1/4 as many shops as there were 30 years ago.

Death of the shop owners is the major reason, sad to say. 

 

Bob 

[edinmass]

54 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

Death of the shop owners is the major reason, sad to say. 

 

Bob 

 

An kids not wanting to get their hands dirty today. No one wants to do real work in this country anymore. 

[60FlatTop]

My roaming area covers from Syracuse to Buffalo with me being between Buffalo and Rochester.. There are many old car related shops on and off the main thoroughfares. I used to stop frequently. And I spent money often. I am still in the hobby and associate with quite a few hobbyist. However I noticed that a few years ago I began to only slow down and check them out in passing. First I found that three key shops had taken on the airs of TV productions. The owner body language, his phrasing, the persona changed from the familiar to the exaggerated, steeped in BS I had been seeing on TV. I would rather just drive home and be with my own stuff. When I buy local I go to individuals listing on Craigslist, Marketplace, or just word of mouth. Most of my needs are met online, even used or hard to get stuff. Maybe I expect too much professionalism from a small businessman.

 

I have found that I am not unique in my views of things in general. Maybe the owner's rapport has more to do with the shop staying open. Maybe I don't want to have to learn "he really is a nice guy" or what I figure is one of the greatest insults "he really is a very smart person" (Just how socially dysfunctional is this guy?). I just drive by and stay away without spending.

And I know there have always been the odd ducks out there to begin with.

Edited January 15, 2022 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

8 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

An kids not wanting to get their hands dirty today. No one wants to do real work in this country anymore. 

Instant satisfaction for everything, has no place in the restoration business, but may be the reason auction prices are where they are. 

 

Bob

[edinmass]

60 Flattop, you’re from Brockport..........you friends with my buddy Tony Z?

[Grimy]

24 minutes ago, edinmass said:

60 Flattop, you’re from Brockport..........you friends with my buddy Tony Z?

Ed, are you just figuring that out now?  The Oracle of Brockport (formerly of Delphi, Greece) has indeed wrenched on the estimable Tony Z's Pierces and Cadillacs.

 

And we want said Oracle to show up at the 2023 PAS Glen Falls meet!

Edited January 15, 2022 by Grimy
fix typo (see edit history)

[3macboys]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

 

An kids not wanting to get their hands dirty today. No one wants to do real work in this country anymore. 

Or to quote the fellow we bought our shop from...their dad never taught them how.  It's not to say that every old car guy's kid is going to become a car person just as not every farmer's kid is going to become a farmer but at least they usually have an appreciation for them.  My father was lamenting earlier this week that my 17 year old son will never have the same interest in the cars and then guess what....that same kid just swapped out his first carb yesterday on a 70 Plymouth and replaced the crush washers on the rear brake lines on the 1930 Dodge.  Today when I said that I was going to the shop guess who asked to tag along?  

[1937hd45]

5 hours ago, alsancle said:

A Messerschmitt KR200 is right there with the Jolly.

 

Messerschmitt 109 and P51 Mustang flight ready, there is a pile of money.

[nzcarnerd]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

An kids not wanting to get their hands dirty today. No one wants to do real work in this country anymore. 

True to some extent. So many of the intelligent ones want to be lawyers or IT geeks - as noted they don't want to get their hands dirty. Another symptom seems to the general worldwide shortage of drivers in the transport industry. 

 

I have probably noted this here before but my two sons, now 23 and 25, grew up riding in the back of the 1929 Plymouth. That, along with my small accumulation of cars helped. They are both intelligent enough to have gone to university but wanted to work with their hands. The younger one is now a qualified coachbuilder working at a restoration business and the other a mechanic at an old car repair shop. Old cars are their hobby as well though most of what they have date from the 1970s and '80s - still long before they were born. They are fortunate we have space here.  Currently there are nearly 30 cars in 'death row' the parts accumulation area. Add to that the frequent flow in and out of the property of other peoples' stuff. The older son has four of other peoples' cars here waiting for him to do work on.  Add to that he has several of his own projects on the go. He decided he needed to change the diff ratio in his 1992 Mitsubishi Pajero - supposedly his daily driver - but has discovered there were three different ratios available and three different size housings.  He now has the right bits, and just needs to reassemble it. He has enough projects to last him for years, the latest a 1946 Nash Ambassador - rare in right hand drive - the price was right (Free) but it meant three 400 mile round trips - one still to do. The previous owners are a three generation car nut family but the Ambassador is one that was given up on 20 years ago. There are the remains of three cars and lots of extra parts.  

 

Being a few miles out of town we are often the the meeting point for runs, and the place where stuff gets put that others don't have quite enough room for. One of their friends has a family block of land about 30 miles away where there are many more 'parts cars'.

 

There is no shortage of younger car 'enthusiasts' but the majority have no skills and are only interested in driving 'hoon' cars - gathering in large numbers in the early hours of the morning and doing 'skids'.  Commonly known here as 'boy racers', they are a menace, leaving black marks and lots of mess on the road, usually on secondary main roads and in industrial areas, and keeping neighbours awake.  Cars are cheap and available, unlike the situation here 50 years ago, and if something breaks they will just go and buy another one.

[trimacar]

9 minutes ago, nzcarnerd said:

if something breaks they will just go and buy another one.

Interesting comment. 

 

I once flew to Reno to investigate an early brass car, which was owned by the widow of a (late) well-known collector who loved to drive his cars.  It was an only one known kind of car (think year, model, body style), and I was very interested in it.

 

With one notable exception (a clutch issue), the car was set up very nicely, including the best two-wheel rear brakes I've ever pressed into service.  If one had driven this car, they'd have never questioned two wheel versus four wheel, much less mechanical versus hydraulic.  If set up properly, brakes work, and man, did those brakes work.

 

I was seriously considering the car.  Though not the reason I didn't buy it, I asked about the stash of spare parts which surely must go with it.  Fellow representing widow looked at me sideways and said, no spare parts, he figured if something broke he'd fix it, why clutter up the garage with unneeded parts.....

[60FlatTop]

17 hours ago, edinmass said:

60 Flattop, you’re from Brockport..........you friends with my buddy Tony Z?

I consider Tony a very good friend. I have known him since I was 16 and did a bit of Service on his cars. I miss seeing him around town since he moved.

[edinmass]

28 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

I consider Tony a very good friend. I have known him since I was 16 and did a bit of Service on his cars. I miss seeing him around town since he moved.

 

I have known him over 40 years. We share Thanksgiving here every year now.........he's a good guy, and we have lots of fun together here in the winter.

 

[8E45E]

After reading all this, I only hope a rare 'special order' car doesn't get scrapped.

 

Craig