Where old cars go to die.......A Pierce Arrow comes to the end of the road.

[60FlatTop]

I went back to look at the picture of that "Gurney Nutting" Brougham project and it is gone. One of my favorite styles.

[Shipping reccomendations]

Talking about Pierce Arrows reminds me meeting a gentleman named Fosgate from Wethersfield Ct. that drove his I believe 1938 pierce arrow convertible sedan more than 250,000 miles. The car was well worn but I wonder if the car still exist.

[Grimy]

18 minutes ago, Shipping reccomendations said:

Talking about Pierce Arrows reminds me meeting a gentleman named Fosgate from Wethersfield Ct. that drove his I believe 1938 pierce arrow convertible sedan more than 250,000 miles. The car was well worn but I wonder if the car still exist.

I checked PAS records by the Fosgate name and can tell you that the car is now in Buffalo NY, appropriately enough, in the excellent hands of a renowned Pierce-Arrow collector.  The convertible sedan owned by Mr. Fosgate (whom I never knew) is actually a 1936, which is substantially the same body as 1937 and 1938.

 

Mr. Fosgate also owned a 1935 8-cyl club sedan which is now in Colorado.

[1937hd45]

20 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

I think what you are really saying Ed, is that the shortage is not the cars . But rather the most limiting things in many / most of our lives. Time, space and money. Having all three seems to be an increasingly rare thing.

I think you left out passion, the car has to have a knock out appearance as a finished car, or have some inner emotional connection for someone to spend the time and money to follow the restoration all the way to the show field. 

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, Shipping reccomendations said:

Talking about Pierce Arrows reminds me meeting a gentleman named Fosgate from Wethersfield Ct. that drove his I believe 1938 pierce arrow convertible sedan more than 250,000 miles. The car was well worn but I wonder if the car still exist.

 

Ted Fosgate drove his car well over 300k miles. His license plate was CCCA. About three years ago, we were at the track in Connecticut and there was a small swap meet. His grandson cleaned out the garage twenty years after he died. We got all the stuff by accident...........most of it is now on other cars............I have a video of his car taken in 1955. George Holman was hitch hiking back in 1957 on Rt 2 in Central Mass and Ted picked him up in the car. 

[West Peterson]

I wonder if the shedded parts of this car got saved.

[edinmass]

 

 

Not yet........but I'm sure they will recycle..........and the rest of my comments can't be posted here.............for someone with too much money and no taste.......It's a shame to cut up a rare restored car. 

[West Peterson]

5 minutes ago, West Peterson said:

I wonder if the shedded parts of this car got saved.

 

To avoid any confusion or blame, let me add that it was NOT my intent to imply that Ed is responsible for what has happened to this car

[edinmass]

1 minute ago, West Peterson said:

 

To avoid any confusion or blame, let me add that it was NOT my intent to imply that Ed is responsible for what has happened to this car

 

I NEVER sin against the Pierce Arrow gods............maybe Packard.

[trimacar]

There seem to be more and more restored Full Classics being bought, then "upgraded" to modern running gear.

 

I don't get it.  If one wants to drive a new car, buy a new car, don't erase history by (in my opinion) butchering a surviving car.

 

When I see ads for complete running gears out of restored cars, it makes me sad.  But, those who want a hot rod have found it's cheaper to buy restored cosmetics and put in running gear, rather than start from scratch.

[West Peterson]

24 minutes ago, trimacar said:

There seem to be more and more restored Full Classics being bought, then "upgraded" to modern running gear.

 

 

I think they should stick with just the 50% Classics and leave the Full Classics alone.

[1912Staver]

I am sure this has occurred to you already Ed. But wouldn't at least some of these lost cause for restoration purposes sedan's still be viable as the start of a vintage tow truck or similar conversion ? Both myself and Matt Harwood ; and no doubt several others on the forum, are  fans of such vehicles. A nice, long W.B. chassis. And turning a big sedan body into a truck like cab has to be way less work than rebuilding a badly deteriorated sedan back to stock form. Also the restoration standard for a working commercial conversion is substantially lower than for a classic car restoration. The cars were generally close to junk yard condition when converted in the first place. Some of the less than pristine sheet metal you are currently binning would be quite usable on a service vehicle conversion.

 I am a big fan of the later 1930's, 1940's , 1950's, GMC 6 engines, 270, 302 etc. Reasonably common and good parts availability. A 30's PA base with a GMC is still " vintage " enough to be in the spirit at least of a in period commercial conversion. 

 Just throwing this out there as a possible way of keeping vintage steel out of the bin.

[edinmass]

37 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

I am sure this has occurred to you already Ed. But wouldn't at least some of these lost cause for restoration purposes sedan's still be viable as the start of a vintage tow truck or similar conversion ? Both myself and Matt Harwood ; and no doubt several others on the forum, are  fans of such vehicles. A nice, long W.B. chassis. And turning a big sedan body into a truck like cab has to be way less work than rebuilding a badly deteriorated sedan back to stock form. Also the restoration standard for a working commercial conversion is substantially lower than for a classic car restoration. The cars were generally close to junk yard condition when converted in the first place. Some of the less than pristine sheet metal you are currently binning would be quite usable on a service vehicle conversion.

 I am a big fan of the later 1930's, 1940's , 1950's, GMC 6 engines, 270, 302 etc. Reasonably common and good parts availability. A 30's PA base with a GMC is still " vintage " enough to be in the spirit at least of a in period commercial conversion. 

 Just throwing this out there as a possible way of keeping vintage steel out of the bin.

 

 

You don't realize how far gone the cars we cut up are..........we have a 1930 Pierce Series A pick up truck done back in 1936. We hauled it back from Canada after it was used as a parts car back in the 50's. We have everything to put it back together, and the restoration is in progress. Trust me.....we don't cut up savable cars. Many people don't realize how common CCCA classic car are.......there is almost an endless supply......and prices will continue to slide on project cars as costs of restoration continue to skyrocket. 

[1912Staver]

I figured you were already aware of this. All in jest of course , but please try to avoid  harvesting Canadian cars. Those of us up here still foolish enough to try have an interest in the hobby are are scraping a barrel that has been picked to the bone for 50 years now. Gets pretty discouraging as the decades roll past.

Edited January 14, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[edinmass]

There are three cars in Canada in my sights...........trying to pull the trigger. 😎

[Cadillac Fan]

Is there a year / model pierce arrow (years 1930-38) to avoid?

 

 

is there one that is particularly good/ reliable year / model.    Or, said another way, is there a year /model in which parts are readily available over other years/ models.  

[alsancle]

5 minutes ago, Cadillac Fan said:

Is there a year / model pierce arrow (years 1930-38) to avoid?

 

Yes, all those years.   AHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

[edinmass]

7 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

Yes, all those years.   AHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

This coming from a guy who’s only car that runs is in my garage.😏

 

29-30 can have more challenges but can be fixed wit a few bucks, 1931-1938 have virtually no issues.

[1912Staver]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

There are three cars in Canada in my sights...........trying to pull the trigger. 😎

Hopefully they are back east. Far enough away that even if they were free they probably wouldn't make sense for those of us out here in the far west.

[edinmass]

Ontario,  Canada. Near Toronto.

[1937hd45]

4 hours ago, West Peterson said:

 

To avoid any confusion or blame, let me add that it was NOT my intent to imply that Ed is responsible for what has happened to this car

Could you please bring the non Pierce Club members up to speed on what ever this story is about? 

[1912Staver]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

Ontario,  Canada. Near Toronto.

Heck, that's only 2000 miles each way. Practically next door. I was thinking you had something close to Massachusetts in mind. I hear there are lots of good cars just sitting in sheds in Nova Scotia.

[edinmass]

1 minute ago, 1912Staver said:

Heck, that's only 2000 miles each way. Practically next door. I was thinking you had something close to Massachusetts in mind. I hear there are lots of good cars just sitting in sheds in Nova Scotia.

 

My boy Josh N has Nova Scotia covered for me........he has hit the jackpot a few times..........being an undertaker........he gets his foot in the garage door while their still warm..........we call him Digger!

[1912Staver]

I should have known, a good network of scouts are a big piece of most success stories.

[edinmass]

5 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

I should have known, a good network of scouts are a big piece of most success stories.

Shit......I thought it was my charming good looks and wonderful personality! 😝

[alsancle]

32 minutes ago, edinmass said:

This coming from a guy who’s only car that runs is in my garage.😏

 

29-30 can have more challenges but can be fixed wit a few bucks, 1931-1938 have virtually no issues.

Now that’s almost true but not completely true.

[Walt G]

14 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

I should have known, a good network of scouts are a big piece of most success stories.

This not only is true for cars,  a good portion of my library of catalogs,photos, periodicals, salon programs ,images etc was because friends knew that was what I liked and would use for research and share and all of this has been going on for over 50 years.

[mike brady]

2 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

I figured you were already aware of this. All in jest of course , but please try to avoid  harvesting Canadian cars. Those of us up here still foolish enough to try have an interest in the hobby are are scraping a barrel that has been picked to the bone for 50 years now. Gets pretty discouraging as the decades roll past.

The reality is that more full classics have been imported into Canada from the USA, than have left Canada, over the past twenty years.  There is a very small group responsible for this and they're not very public about it.

 

There were certainly more classics in Canada after WW2 than there are now, but there are more now tan there was 20 years ago.

[trimacar]

5 hours ago, West Peterson said:

 

I think they should stick with just the 50% Classics and leave the Full Classics alone.

Hi West, just trying to use the nomenclature pushed by CCCA.  The words Classic and Full Classic are so overused and in many cases incorrectly, depending on one’s viewpoint…

[trimacar]

43 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Shit......I thought it was my charming good looks and wonderful personality! 😝

Well, let’s just stick with personality, please…

[edinmass]

31 minutes ago, trimacar said:

Well, let’s just stick with personality, please…

 

Don’t make me call your wife and tell her you bought another car............😏

[1912Staver]

4 hours ago, mike brady said:

The reality is that more full classics have been imported into Canada from the USA, than have left Canada, over the past twenty years.  There is a very small group responsible for this and they're not very public about it.

 

There were certainly more classics in Canada after WW2 than there are now, but there are more now tan there was 20 years ago.

These points are not lost on me. There is without a doubt a significant minority of Canadians who have done very well over the last 20 years . Unfortunately I am not in that group. My main interest in this thread in the first case is that if these sort of cars are only of value as salvage of perhaps 20 or 25 % of their parts , the remainder being scrap, then they would theoretically at least be in the financial reach of those of us of more average means. And perhaps an alternative to the usual sort of " gray porridge " cars that are becoming the standby of the middle class and lower , Canadian { and American of course } old car owner.

 A good many average Canadian's are slowly { or quickly depending on your circumstances } loosing ground to the either truly out of whack housing costs , and / or the comparatively high tax, and cost of living vs generally so - so wages or retirement income that is the current reality for many of us. The thought that one might get a starting point, high quality car at a affordable price makes a nice fantasy if nothing else.

 

 

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

What would a Pierce Arrow "Project car" sell for, one that could be brought back to life, one that is too good to part out? I just can't see the time and materials and farmed out labor to get the chassis restored being less than the cost of buying a better old restoration to start with. This thinking goes with just about all brands. If there are home restorations underway I don't know of any these days. 

[alsancle]

6 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

What would a Pierce Arrow "Project car" sell for, one that could be brought back to life, one that is too good to part out? I just can't see the time and materials and farmed out labor to get the chassis restored being less than the cost of buying a better old restoration to start with. This thinking goes with just about all brands. If there are home restorations underway I don't know of any these days. 

 

Ed will come in off the top rope and squash this,  but other than a few very desirable bodies there is not such thing as a Pierce project that could be brought back to life.    If we are talking sedans,  once they are shot, they are done.

 

Btw,  I'm not picking on Pierce Arrow,  the same is true for Packard,  Cadillac, Lincoln, etc.    The backyard restorer with the skills and network to accomplish a full restoration are gone,  and nobody is spending 300k with a shop to restore a car that might be worth 100k on its best day.

[1937McBuick]

On 1/13/2022 at 3:45 PM, kgreen said:

Dave Tacheny of the Buick persuasion in Minnesota, parts out Buicks routinely.   He tells me that he's cannibalized hundreds of old Buicks.  The other thing he says is "there's nothing special about a Special".  Any part that a Special has that fits the larger series means the Special, even if a #1 car, just became a donor. 

 

Also, since none of the Buick guys are likely reading this thread, I'll admit to cutting up a rare 1940 Buick convertible that was restorable, but it gave its all to make another one complete.

 

[George K]

Ed I was wondering if you’re where old Pierce’s go to die and your in Florida isn’t Florida where old guys go to die. Just a thought. Haha.

[1937McBuick]

34 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Btw,  I'm not picking on Pierce Arrow,  the same is true for Packard,  Cadillac, Lincoln, etc.    The backyard restorer with the skills and network to accomplish a full restoration are gone,  and nobody is spending 300k with a shop to restore a car that might be worth 100k on its best day.

In my opinion the car restoration "business",  except for the elite top end cars,  will be either on life support or dead.    There is a huge disservice done to customers when shops purposely lowball and knowingly come in under what the cost of restoring a car will finally come in at.....  just to get the job in the door and know full well the customer likely won't  say "whoa in a mud hole".    Cost over-run of 20% may be acceptable but one and a half to two times over budget/quote and twice as long in time are unacdeptable.

 

There is little or no value or ROI in this hobby.   Let's make it clear,  hobbies are for the guy spending the money on something that will never be worth what was sunk in and business is for the guy supplying the goods and services making the money on something that isn't worth what was spent on it.

 

Obviously I've had a bad experience.

[edinmass]

The car hobby is the same as playing the slots............one in a million get lucky, the rest are dumping cash for entertainment with no expectations of a return. Nothing wrong with going upside down in a car....as long as you realize it. People spend money on golf, 2500 dollar bottles of wine, hotels that are 3000 a night. And they don’t expect anything but the enjoyment and experience...........why should a car be different?

 

Being careful of your “in and out” cost on a car is a reasonable concern. Most any car that  is properly serviced and maintained will hold it’s value in some reasonable way.

Edited January 15, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsancle]

4 minutes ago, edinmass said:

The car hobby is the same as playing the slots............one in a million get lucky, the rest are dumping cash for entertainment with no expectations of a return. Nothing wrong with going upside down in a car....as long as you realize it. People spend money of golf, 2500 dollar bottles of wine, hotels that are 3000 a night. And they don’t expect anything but the enjoyment and experience...........why should a car be different?

 

Smartest thing you have posted  in a long time.   

 

There are lots of ways to enjoy the hobby without trying to resurrect some car that they made 3k of and a nice one is attainable for 1/4 the money and effort.

[alsancle]

Btw,

 

As far as shops go,  anybody half decent can be is business till they day they die with more work than they want.    Somebody has to keep the cars running.   There are 1/4 as many shops as there were 30 years ago.