Packards at the Yalta Conference (1945)

[1935Packard]

I've been watching the Netflix series "WWII in Color: The Road to Victory" (which is quite good, BTW), and there are a bunch of Packards shown when FDR, Churchill and Stalin are being driven around.  These shots from the Yalta conference in 1945 are examples: 

 

 

 

This was presented as Stalin's limo going into the Kremlin a few weeks earlier:

 

 

(Sorry for the whitewalls, AJ.)

 

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by 1935Packard (see edit history)

[8E45E]

I wonder if that is where Stalin got his idea for making the ZIS-110 look like a Packard.

 

Craig

[car crazy]

3 hours ago, 8E45E said:

I wonder if that is where Stalin got his idea for making the ZIS-110 look like a Packard.

 

Craig

It was my understanding the Packard body dies were sold to Russia.Pretty sure Packard would have been happy to have had them with the huge demand for automobiles immediately after war's end.  

Edited January 7, 2022 by car crazy (see edit history)

[TTR]

10 hours ago, 1935Packard said:

I've been watching the Netflix series "WWII in Color: The Road to Victory" (which is quite good, BTW), and there are a bunch of Packards shown when FDR, Churchill and Stalin are being driven around.  These shots from the Yalta conference in 1945 are examples: 

 

 

 

This was presented as Stalin's limo going into the Kremlin a few weeks earlier:

 

 

(Sorry for the whitewalls, AJ.)

 

 

 

3 hours ago, 8E45E said:

I wonder if that is where Stalin got his idea for making the ZIS-110 look like a Packard.

 

Craig

Here we have great examples why "History" is and constantly/continuously gets riddled with countless inaccuracies, misrepresentations, -understandings, etc.

 

OTOH, these ^^ are far, far less important (inaccurate/-correct) details than found in vast majority of "History" most people tend to "believe" in.

Edited January 7, 2022 by TTR (see edit history)

[58L-Y8]

15 minutes ago, car crazy said:

It was my understanding the Packard body dies were sold to Russia.Pretty sure Packard would have been happy to have had them with the huge demand for automobiles immediately after war's end.  

It's another myth that just keeps making the rounds.  When cars are built from the same body dies, the body panels will interchange.  Both cars have been extensively examined, are not identical, are dimensional different, were not built from the same dies.   The Russians were very good at reverse engineering and copying. 

[car crazy]

4 minutes ago, 58L-Y8 said:

It's another myth that just keeps making the rounds.  When cars are built from the same body dies, the body panels will interchange.  Both cars have been extensively examined, are not identical, are dimensional different, were not built from the same dies.   The Russians were very good at reverse engineering and copying. 

Wonder what actually became of those dies?..Sure could have helped Packard post-war....

Edited January 7, 2022 by car crazy (see edit history)

[58L-Y8]

15 minutes ago, car crazy said:

Wonder what actually became of those dies?..Sure could have helped Packard post-war....

The pre-war body dies went into the scrap drives for the war effort.  By the postwar, the dies for models other than the Clipper were those first used for the 1938 Six (110) and Eight (120) 'Junior' series.  The dies were for Packard's first all-steel bodies.  They were revised and restyled for 1941 but still essentially pre-war body architecture.  With the introduction of the 1941 Clipper, the old-style bodies were outdated.  That's why Packard expanded the Clipper bodies for 1942 to all but the convertible and the lwb models. 

If they had tried to reintroduce those old-style bodies postwar, they would have been hopelessly out-of-date.  The Clipper was modern and current enough to carry the line to meet the pent-up demand.  Henney was contracted to build their 1946-'47 21st Series lwb models.   The convertible had to wait until the restyled 22nd Series 1948.  That series is a fascinating tale all its own.

Steve

[8E45E]

3 hours ago, car crazy said:

It was my understanding the Packard body dies were sold to Russia.Pretty sure Packard would have been happy to have had them with the huge demand for automobiles immediately after war's end.  

That is not correct.  But the Yalta conference is where Stalin would have had the opportunity to study the design of the Packards up close, and then insisted 'his' chauffeur driven fleet appear similar.

 

The rumor of Packard selling off the old dies was held until the Iron Curtain fell in the 1990's and the opportunity finally presented itself to do a thorough product comparison.  There are several dimensional differences between a Packard 160 and 180 series and a ZIS-110 to disprove that theory; not to mention, was there ever was ANY record of Packard selling off assets to the Soviet government at the time.

 

Craig

Edited January 7, 2022 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[JACK M]

Uncle Ho had one. These were taken in Vie Nam in 2015 at his palace.

[1935Packard]

Two more. 

 

 

[Jim Skelly]

On 1/7/2022 at 11:37 AM, 58L-Y8 said:

The convertible had to wait until the restyled 22nd Series 1948.  That series is a fascinating tale all its own.

Steve

Briefly, what is the story on the '48-'50?  A lot of people have stated that these "bathtub" Packards were the beginning of the end for them.  Of course, some have said that introducing a cheaper line for 1935 was the beginning of the end, too.

 

I have a promotional model car of the '48-'49 Custom Eight convertible made by Master Caster out of Chicago.  

[bryankazmer]

there are a lot of opinions around this, but I'll put in a few facts with minimal opinions.

 

Packard was the only American luxury car maker to survive the Depression without corporate financial life support.

The 120 was introduced in 1935.

The 6 cyl was introduced in 1937

The independent makes introduced their postwar designs for the 48 model year, a year ahead of GM/Ford/Chrysler.  The trend was to fuselage bodies eliminating separate fender lines.  The convertible came out part way through 1947

Packard reused the Clipper center section to save on tooling.  This led to the doors and body being wider than the greenhouse - hence the "bathtub"

Packard developed their own automatic transmission (with lock-up clutch) for 1949

All this led to the next design being pushed from 1950 to 1951 (the so-called "high pockets")

 

The 48 and 49 cars sold pretty well overall (Packard outsold Cadillac in 1949) but by 50 looked no longer up to date.  The postwar sellers' market was now gone.

 

There have been much more detailed versions in the Packard Club magazine

[JV Puleo]

Packard was well known in Russia before WWI and with practically no capacity to manufacture passenger cars — or a market other than party apparatchicks to use them, there was little incentive to build them. What effort was made went into trucks and other heavy vehicles. Heck, this was still true in the 1970s...

 

 

[58L-Y8]

1 hour ago, Jim Skelly said:

Briefly, what is the story on the '48-'50?  A lot of people have stated that these "bathtub" Packards were the beginning of the end for them.  Of course, some have said that introducing a cheaper line for 1935 was the beginning of the end, too.

 

I have a promotional model car of the '48-'49 Custom Eight convertible made by Master Caster out of Chicago.  

Hi Jim

 

Funny you should ask...have I got an answer for you!  Here is a link to an article which I wrote as an answer to comments and questions regarding the whys and wherefores of the 1948-'50 22nd and 23rd Series styling.

Synopsis of forces and events leading to '48-'50 styling [Post-War (1946-54)] - Packard Motor Car Information (packardinfo.com)

 

The article also got picked up for inclusion in The Packard Cormorant, the quarterly publication of The Packard Club.  Editor Stuart Blond did a wonderful job of laying it out and selecting photographs to illustrate the progression of events.  If you would enjoy a copy, I have extras, send me a PM and I will forward a copy to you.

 

There is a thorough analysis of the development and history of these 22nd and 23rd Series models by Robert J. Neal in his book; Packard 1948-1950 which is an excellent read for any automotive historian.  Much of my synopsis is based this book as well as myriad other published sources. 

 

Steve 

[m-mman]

Ok, as long as we are correcting history, I have a question: WHERE did these Packards come from? (yeah Michigan, I know that) 

 

Were they purchased by the USSR government? 

Were they gifited to Stalin by the USA?

Were they confiscated from a private owner? (occupied countries?) 

Were they original Packard export cars? or Sold in USA, cars that were exported?

The cars used by Churchill & Roosevelt; were they already in Yalta? or were they brought in by GB and USA

I wouldn't think that Churchill & Roosevelt should be in a Russian owned car but the Western leaders did stay in buildings that were heavily bugged by Stalin. 

 

I mention this because the Zimmerman Automobile Driving Museum in California has a 36(?) Super 8 seven passenger touring and their story line is that "It belonged to Stalin". . . . . .Hummmmmm. . . . 

 

I asked around and researched it a little and cold find no documentation for a Stalin connection beyond the comment that the person that the museum got the car from (package deal) was known for stories and elaborations. The car is neat vehicle in its own right it doesn't need any Stalin connection.

 

I contacted the national archives and they searched "Packard export automobiles" and could find no mention of any going to the USSR from 35 to 41.  There was some mention of some going to other European countries.

 

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by m-mman (see edit history)

[1935Packard]

No idea if this is true, but this website claims: 

 

Stalin's favorite car was the Packard 12 which he received as a present from U.S. President Franklin Roosevelt in 1935. It was this car that he used during famous Allied conferences in Tehran, Yalta, and Potsdam. Rumor has it that he observed the ruins of captured Berlin in 1945 from the windows of his Packard.

 

https://www.rbth.com/lifestyle/328376-kremlin-cars-favorite-rides

 

[edinmass]

The 35 V-12 was armored, and still exists. 

[5219]

As far as "It belonged to Stalin", it could truthfully be said that EVERY car in the USSR belonged to Comrade Stalin. In the Lenin museum in what is now St. Petersburg, you can see Lenin's 1922 Rolls Royce touring car. This was bought for him out of public funds well after the revolution. I am sure that there were many luxury cars left behind by wealthy people who fled the revolution or were killed by it. Rather than appropriate one of them, Lenin bought himself a new one.

 

Based on this, I would not be surprised if Stalin simply ordered a Packard from somewhere in Europe. The Czar and the royal family had Packards, so they were well known and respected in Russia.

 

The Zis automobiles, if you look at them closely, are rather crude copies of Packard automobiles. There is no way that they were made from Packard tooling.