1923 Dodge Gearbox questions, and Merry Christmas to all

[cutdown]

I decided to fit new bearings in my gearbox while everything is apart. First thing I noticed was the front bearing was very worn. Next was that the rear nut was not tight, and there was excessive float on the mainshaft where it is supposed to be held in the rear bearing. Float approx 1.5 to 2.5 mm. Rear bearing rather worn as well although like the front bearing, not noisy that I could tell. I also noticed the layshaft had no thrust washers at either end and could float back and forward by roughly 6 mm.

This end float is not normal when comparing to more modern gearboxes so hopefully there is someone out there that I can have a conservation with. The rear drive yoke has worn where it fits against the bearing. that probably means making a spacer washer that tapers out from 40mm ID to about 43mm, in order to compress the main shaft into the rear bearing.

I have obtained the 2 main bearings in NZ but can't source the needle rollers locally nor anywhere on the internet. I rechecked Myers and found they listed them at $51.00 US each. That equates to approx $75.00 NZ without freight each. I got the 2 FAG bearings today, costing me approx $82.00 for the pair. I guess if I have to buy them, then no choice at that price.

 

Hopefully someone out there can have a chat with me about their experience on these gearboxes.   They are pretty solid looking things. I also noticed that the rear studs are pegged just like the main bearing studs on the engine. Probably to make sure the holes for the castellated nuts are all in similar positions relative to the ease of fitting the split pins.

 

Many thanks and Merry Christmas to everyone.

 

Dereck

[Mattml430]

Merry Christmas Dereck

What year is your box I may have some good original needle roller bearings. 
My bearing guys here can get them so if you need them let me know the size and I’ll see if they can get them. 
May even have some new ones in all my gear bearing box. 

[cutdown]

Hi Matt. No idea what year the box is but it has 0.75"x1.25"x49mm [ probably 2" ]  caged needle rollers.

 

Actually, that [ cluster ]  laygear is a bloody good design as it has replaceable single pc, outer bearing shells, which are keyed into the inside of the cluster 

Edited December 23, 2021 by cutdown (see edit history)

[Mattml430]

2 minutes ago, cutdown said:

Hi Matt. No idea what year the box is but it has 0.75"x1.25"x49mm [ probably 2" ]  caged needle rollers.

Ok I’ll have a look in the morning for you and see what I’ve got. 

[Minibago]

Hi Dereck,

 

Here are the specs for your roller bearing part number 94332

 

 

For sale on ebay 

Also for sale from MRO Supply on line

Just google “Roller Bearing 94332

 

 

[Minibago]

Dereck,

you will also need to look at your clutch input shaft for wear

so too the intermediate drive gear which fits over it.

The gearbox is very robust but if these items are worn then both first and second gears can be very noisy.

The noise goes away when this intermediate gear locks inside third to provide direct drive.

 

 

 

 

[cutdown]

Yes it is a pretty heavy gearbox. I did notice that in top gear, the other gears are disengaged. I thought it odd that reverse gear is in mesh all the time but obviously not turning when in top gear. 

How often are you in first and second gear while driving these cars?

I think I am going to have to make up some spacers washers for the cluster gear to remove most of that end float, and make up a spacing washer to clamp the main shaft into the rear bearing.

The next thing I was going to do was to check the frontend with the new bearing.  My clutch is sitting on a bench uncompressed. I will check it pout and leave it uncompressed until I am ready to refit the engine etc. They tend to rust together when not used [ as mine was ].

Edited December 23, 2021 by cutdown
spelling. (see edit history)

[Minibago]

Hi Dereck,

It is a genuine crash box and the very heavy oil recommended (slowing the gears quickly) makes things interesting. 
First gear is extremely low, I am not sure of the actual maximum speed but something like 5 miles an hour with the revs very high.

The change from first to second needs to be done carefully to allow the engine speed to match the gear speed to avoid a crunch.
You also need to complete the change before the car stops again.
The easiest method by far is to move off in first and once rolling, change up early (still double de-clutching) which makes things nicer as the revs match much quicker. 
This is not so easy up an incline or across an intersection up hill, the car will try to stop before the engine revs are down low enough for a clean change.

Second to top is better but second too is very low (something like 15 miles an hour) so getting in to top gear at a speed which will allow for progress with out lugging in top gear is a skill learnt on the job.

(The flywheel is very heavy hanging of the end of the crankshaft)
Many of my fellow Dodge Brothers drivers only use second and top, I cannot recommend this as it does not do to slip the clutch and crankshaft cracking and breakage is more common than you might think. 

[Minibago]

Further to the gearbox overhaul I would recommend replacing the spigot bearing in the flywheel centre.

Also the bush in the output shaft which accepts the mating nose of the input shaft needs to be replaced (not an easy task and reaming may be required once fitted)

Excess shaft movement forward or backward will affect gear selection.

[MikeC5]

First gear is very low so I normally start off in 2nd (unless stopped and headed uphill).  

[Mattml430]

I only have the 1 in your size but your welcome to it. 
All the others are a bit smaller out of my Victory boxes. 
The one I have there is out of my old 26/27

[cutdown]

Hi Matt. That looks exactly like my bearings. If it hasn't gone through the hardening like mine it would be worth using.

[cutdown]

Hi Minibago. Yes, the flywheel spigot bearing was the first one I obtained last year. Will check out that bush etc on the front shaft as well.  There is 3.55 mm end float on the cluster so will make up a thrust pad to remove most of it. I'll allow 10 - 20 thou clearance. The box appears to have 90 gear oil in it. Might think about getting some 14o gear oil for it so long as that bush in the front shaft is not lubed by the oil. Thinner oil gets in  [ and out ] easier.

 

Once I get this old girl on the road again I am going to have to practice changing gears. Have never owned a crash box before apart from the crash 1st gear on all my early English cars.

 

Progress on the car is going be slow over the next few days so I'll let you know in due course.

Derec

[Mattml430]

16 minutes ago, cutdown said:

Hi Matt. That looks exactly like my bearings. If it hasn't gone through the hardening like mine it would be worth using.

Yeah mate it’s like new. PM me your address and I’ll post it over once the post office opens again. 

[Minibago]

Take your time Dereck, there is no hurry, take a break, have a safe and very Merry Christmas. I will see what I have in my spares.

The gearbox also has another quirk in its layout.

Left and forward is first, straight back is reverse

Can catch you out if you are not concentrating.

Right and back is second and right and forward is top which takes the gear lever out of the way of driving.

The recommendation for the gear oil is very thick we use Penrite 250 the major reason for this is that the layshaft is completely disconnected when top gear is selected, (there is no synchro) if you fill with light gear oil you will never be able to down shift, you need the viscosity to help turn the layshaft.

Plus, the thin oil will leak out much quicker.

Just another note, the original front and rear gearbox bearings were open allowing the gearbox oil to flow out into the torque tube going uphill, it fills up the diff, flows down the axle housing and leaks out all over your brakes. Sealed bearings are the go but some suggest removing the cover on the inside half to allow for bearing lubrication. 

 

[TonyAus]

Just to clarify one point, Penrite Transoil 250 is equvalent to 600W.  I'm not sure where they got the 250 name from.

[Minibago]

600wt oil is a very early term for so called steam cylinder oil.

The 250 is directly related to the viscosity by SAE.

 

[cutdown]

Hi guys.  I have bought 2rs bearings.  Sealed both sides. I am a retired Auto Engineer so understand what 85 w 140 means etc. I use 20w60 in my Norton engines etc. I did notice one comment from a member here that he uses very thin oil in the engine because of the low oil pressure generated by the oil pump. My engine will be tight so will need as much oil as it can get.

 

I noticed in the manual that they originally recommended using the "best quality " grease [ 4 pints up until car A875-380 and 2 pints after . {page 173} ] , and never over the top of the reverse idler gear. When using oil, it looks like you fill it till it runs out one of the 2 bolt holes below the top bolt hole on the revers idler support. 

 

I just measured the clearance between front bush and mainshaft. 10.5 thou. I can feel the movement but I suspect its not too much, considering the thickness of the oil to be used. any comment here.

 

I have been thinking about the gear lever a s well, because there is so much wear, you end up rubbing the side of your passengers leg [ yay ] or forcing your own leg out ward.  Just joking, but you know what I mean.

 

all the best.

 

Dereck

 

Ps . we had Christmas dinner with our family last night and I am still bloated.

Edited December 25, 2021 by cutdown
extra info (see edit history)

[JACK M]

On 12/24/2021 at 11:45 AM, TonyAus said:

Just to clarify one point, Penrite Transoil 250 is equvalent to 600W.  I'm not sure where they got the 250 name from.

 

On 12/24/2021 at 1:09 PM, Minibago said:

600wt oil is a very early term for so called steam cylinder oil.

The 250 is directly related to the viscosity by SAE

Seems to contradict.

I don't see anywhere in my searches where it is available stateside.

 

 

 

[nearchoclatetown]

Steam cylinder oil is available in the US. Contact a RR museum and ask them where they get it.

[Minibago]

SAE 250 gear oil is also available in the USA made by Amsoil and Lucas. and Lubriplate SPO-299 part number L0249-013 is available directly from Lubriplate. Newark NJ and Toledo or on line.

 

[JACK M]

Thanks,

Still confused about the 250 being SAE 600.

I have a leaking steering gear that I want to try a heavy lube in.

I think SAE 250 would still leak. Doesn't take long to leak out the 90wt.

Probably leak no matter what I put in there but it would be nice to slow it down until I can fix it properly.

[nearchoclatetown]

Try cornhead grease in it. John Deere and others make it. It is called poreable grease. The stuff I get comes in about 8 or 10 oz. tube. You can squeeze it right in, no grease gun needed. 

[Minibago]

Hi Jack.

600wt is Steam Cylinder oil used because back in the day that was all that was available thick enough to do the job.

It is not designed for a gearbox application but for high viscosity, high temperature applications. This is the readily available modern equivalent.

 

 

SAE 250 is a “Society of Automotive Engineers” viscosity (thickness, pour-ability) rating. 
Not the same thing as 600wt steam oil. 
SAE 600 does not exist.

I understand Penrite Transoil 250 is available in the USA or at least on line.

 

 

This oil is specifically designed for use in our cars gearboxes and differentials.

Regarding your steering box, Doug is on the money, Semi Fluid Grease is the way to go and is freely available in the USA.

 

 

[Bloo]

600W is not the weight. It probably meant the flash point in Fahrenheit originally.

[cutdown]

7 hours ago, JACK M said:

Thanks,

Still confused about the 250 being SAE 600.

I have a leaking steering gear that I want to try a heavy lube in.

I think SAE 250 would still leak. Doesn't take long to leak out the 90wt.

Probably leak no matter what I put in there but it would be nice to slow it down until I can fix it properly.

Sounds like your steering shaft and or bushes are worn.  You could possibly do what I did to my Norton kick start shaft leak. I removed the kickstart lever, fitted an O ring over the shaft, squirted some rtv sealer next then fitted a 20 thou shim of the correct ID, then forced the kick starter lever up against the shim. Lasted years. The steering box on my dodge was the first repair I did to the dodge. Made a new eccentric bush.

[22touring]

A DB authority, I forget who, once recommended that I use LUB 164.  I understand that it about a 1600 W, and may be similar to steam engine oil, but I'm not an expert on the subject.  I have been happy with LUB 164.

[cutdown]

Trouble with thick oil is that it doesn't get into fine clearances very easily/.  Should be ok in these Dodge gearboxes because of big clearances, and the hole in the cluster would help it act like a pump, and suck oil in through the needle rollers and throw it out through the hole.

[Bloo]

The viscosity numbers are confusing, but here are some basic things to keep in mind.

 

SAE viscosity numbers are ranges. As an example the SAE 30 motor oil rating we are all familiar with could have some heavier and some lighter oil sold under "SAE 30" as long as they all fell in a certain range. It is not specific about viscosity, except to tell you it will not be outside the range.

 

SAE numbers with a "W" after are different. Some say the W means winter, and I am not sure that's true, but it does for sure mean colder. SAE grades with a W after them mean the testing was done at a colder temperature. SInce oil gets thinner when it gets hotter, this matters. It is the reason something like 20W-20 motor oil could exist, and that was a multiviscosity oil! Plain 20W (note the W) would have got thinner as it got hotter, and probably would have not fallen in the range for SAE 20.

 

SAE gear oils are rated on a different scale than motor oils. The SAE 90 gear oil rating we are all familiar with is roughly the same viscosity as SAE 50 motor oil. A "W" in a gear oil rating means the same thing as it does in motor oil, that being that the testing was done at a lower temperature. Lower temperature often results in higher viscosity.

 

600W is steam cylinder oil, and it is completely unrelated to any of this. I also suspect it was not petroleum oil originally, but I'm less sure of that.

 

The replacement for 600W in automotive gear oil applications (and that was petroleum for sure) was SAE 160. The SAE 160 standard has been deprecated and I have not been able to find any solid information about what viscosity range it covered. It seems likely to have covered much of the same territory as SAE 250 today, not SAE 140 as is commonly assumed. I can't prove it, so take that with a grain of salt.

 

ISO ratings, unlike SAE ratings, refer to a specific viscosity. They do not have a "W" or even a "weight", although you will see gear oils in the automotive world advertised that way. The "1600W" mentioned earlier in the thread is probably really ISO 1500 if the seller were to produce a datasheet.

 

Meanwhile, many modern 600W substitutes for model A Fords often have an ISO rating of 680. That is a coincidence. 600W is a trademark owned by Mobil, not a viscosity rating. Mobil does not publish an ISO or SAE viscosity rating for current production "600W", but the kinematic viscosities they publish suggest ISO 460. They do publish an ISO rating for their "600W Super" oil. It is ISO 460.

 

Here is a handy chart. Lay a ruler across it and go to town. This, along with the information posted by others earlier in the thread, should show why SAE 250 and ISO 1500 and ISO 680 and various mislabeled "W" and "weight" oils sold by hobby sources can all be about the same viscosity. You'll have to guess about 600W since it didn't refer to viscosity, and god only knows what viscosity it was in the 20s. It was reputed to be extremely thick and gloppy so it probably makes sense that a replacement should be thicker than Mobil's current ISO 460-ish 600W. There have already been oils posted in this thread that are known to work.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by Bloo (see edit history)

[nearchoclatetown]

Steam cylinder oil is a mineral oil. To confuse the matter more I have read not to use hypoid gear oil in old straight cut gear transmissions. Something about shear and not having the lubricity?

[Bloo]

That doesn't come up too often, and I would also like to know the answer.

 

There is a lot of confusion due to the fact that some hypoid oils attack brass/bronze bushings, a completely separate issue. Also due to the fact that by the time 600W started getting replaced with SAE 160, synchromesh had also arrived. What a synchromesh transmission wants and what a sliding gear transmission wants are totally different, but both probably used 600W prior to the mid 30s. What I have heard is that a sliding gear transmission wants long hydrocarbon chains, to protect the tips of the gears as they contact each other when shifting. I can't back that up. I hope someone in here knows more.

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Minibago]

Someone on this forum recently said,

“Don’t over complicate things with a simple Dodge Brothers car”

I am now tending to agree.

Bloo quite correctly says that what is required for a DB gearbox is different to the modern requirements.

Hypoid refers to the differential gear design. Note the offset.

 

 

EP (extreme pressure) additives assist lubrication by among other things, resisting the tendency to fling off and / or squish out but can cause damage to brass and bronze.

The modern car has a different oil distribution system, different design parameters and a great deal more power so we must accept that our needs are not readily available off the shelf and planning is important. 
The correct equipment is available and yes it is often more expensive. 

 

[Pete K.]

What would be the down-side using straight STP oil treatment? I've been using a 80/20 mix of this with 20% 80W-90 gear lube in my Model A transmission with good results for years.

[Minibago]

Like I said, why complicate things.

Why buy the wrong oil and add an expensive thickener?

What are you using as the measurement for “good results”

[cutdown]

Getting back to the gearbox. My cluster moves back and forward by 5.55 mm. When you look down at the end, you can actually see the ends of the needle rollers sticking out.  To me that's not right.  But What is???  I checked today, and in second gear, the cluster is thrown forward and that's what the wear marks suggest it has run at all its life.  In first gear the cluster is shoved forward and that appears to be where it runs.  In both cases, the gears do not engage fully. Maybe leave well enough alone. Its been like that for 100 years or so.

 

 

When top gear is selected, it looks like you have to graunch your way into neutral if you don't have the revs right, and then graunch into the other 2 gears form then on.  Looks like it's going to take a bit of practice to get gear changes right.  Any tips here for gear changing.  It will give me time to practice in my mind. I'm used to that as I'm a musician.

 

Dereck

 

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by cutdown (see edit history)

[Mattml430]

16 minutes ago, cutdown said:

Getting back to the gearbox. My cluster moves back and forward by 5.55 mm. When you look down at the end, you can actually see the ends of the needle rollers sticking out.  To me that's not right.  But What is???  I checked today, and in second gear, the cluster is thrown forward and that's what the wear marks suggest it has run at all its life.  In first gear the cluster is shoved forward and that appears to be where it runs.  In both cases, the gears do not engage fully. Maybe leave well enough alone. Its been like that for 100 years or so.

 

 

When top gear is selected, it looks like you have to graunch your way into neutral if you don't have the revs right, and then graunch into the other 2 gears form then on.  Looks like it's going to take a bit of practice to get gear changes right.  Any tips here for gear changing.  It will give me time to practice in my mind. I'm used to that as I'm a musician.

 

Dereck

where did the red come from

 

This is where the heavy weight/thick oil comes in. As you changing gear you need to leave it I neutral for a second or so to let the box slow down before sliding it into the next gear. And double clutch it from 3rd to 2nd. I also throw a handful of grease and 250ml of morey’s  on top of the penrite transaxle 250. Works wonderfully. 

[cutdown]

A mate of mine uses moreys in his 29 chev.  Grease as well!  Yes , they stipulated mine grease in the workshop manual

[nearchoclatetown]

As Matt, and all of us have been trying to tell you the thick oil is the trick. Is slows the shafts down to help change gears. I rarely use first, get moving in second and get into high real quick. I know lots that use the thickest oil found and then blend in a tube or two of grease. Don't know what moreys is but real steam cylinder oil can be found easily in the US. We still have plenty of steam engines and trains. 

Edited December 29, 2021 by nearchoclatetown (see edit history)

[Minibago]

Hi Dereck,

You should not have this 1/4 inch of movement in your idler shaft.
The front bearing should be the front stop and a thrust washer comes behind the cluster. These hold the cluster in place and the roller bearings too.

 

 

 

In top gear the input shaft is a direct drive to the output shaft leaving the idler shaft disconnected. The thick oil, among other things, also helps the idler shaft to rotate. 
 

So, lesson one.

The idle of the engine needs to be as low as possible when engaging a gear prior to moving off otherwise it is difficult engage the gear.

The clutch needs to fully disengage, if it is dragging a little then engaging a gear is difficult. I know of examples where both of the above situations were ignored and gear selection was made by force with much un-necessary painful noise.

Changing up from first to second can be done almost as soon as you are moving on the flat thereby limiting the engine revs by dipping the clutch and moving the gear lever rearwards to neutral and releasing the clutch, dipping the clutch again having pulled the gear lever sideways towards you to avoid reverse and as the revs die you can hold the lever gently rearwards at the gate and feel, it will just drop in silently. 

It takes longer to say it than to do it.
This is not an easy task up hill as the car will slow as soon as the clutch is depressed but you still need to wait for the engine revs to drop to allow a quiet gear change. You also might need to get across an intersection so at times staying in first to clear the intersection is the best option.

I still cannot recommend slipping the clutch to only use second but many people do.

Changing up from second to third is the same with the lever moved forward into neutral as the clutch is depressed, release the clutch and depress again and having allowed the engine revs to fall just hold the gear lever forward at the gate and as the revs match it will once again just drop in quietly.

Changing up too early and allowing the heavy flywheel torque to pull the car along is another common driving habit as is leaving the car in top at very low speeds but you then run the risk, while lugging the engine, of breaking a crankshaft. 
Now the fun part, changing down.

When changing down from top to second you need to slow the car right down as second gear is a wide space from top.

If approaching a corner on the flat then take your time, slow the car dip the clutch, pull back to neutral, clutch out, rev the engine, dip the clutch and pull back against the gate and it will drop in.
You will need to practice getting the revs right.

It is easy to change down going up hill if you are running out of puff by timing things correctly. You should be changing down at the road speed that you changed up so as to maintain momentum, as your speedo indicates the high end road speed of second gear perhaps about 15mph then a quick dip on the clutch neutral clutch out a quick high rev dip the clutch and pull the lever back against the gate. The speed of the gear change / clutch / engine rev is most important to prevent loss of forward speed.

Practice practice practice.

I was able to teach my wife very easily so no problem.

 

 

 

 

[cutdown]

Thats Brilliant. I know what you mean when you say hold the gear lever towards the shift position and it will slide in.

 

Now.  To make a spacer for the cluster.  3mm thick should allow 20 thou movement which i think is ok.  As there is very little thrust force , then the spacer should not need to be anything special and i suspect a shaped piece of 3mm flat section should do it. May need to groove it to help oil circulation. Its a pity because someone must have left it out many many years ago.

 

My manual does not show a detailed picture like you have shown .

 

I suspect that  part is not available.