1911 hupmobile 20 restoration.

[Jeff Spear]

Hello everyone,

 

A 1911 hupmobile followed me home last week I am the third owner since new and have some documentation with the car so it may be a good example of correctness.

Then again it is over 100 years old and a lot can happen but I think its a pretty good one.

 

I cleaned the mag and fuel system and got it running smokes a fair amount cleaned up some after warming up do they even have oil rings? took a drive up and down the street. once when taking off it sounded like gears slipping other than that the engine I think is a little loose but overall it didn't seem too bad I will restore everything so it's not a big deal either way  but it's nice to start with something that at least works.

 

I do have a question the oil lamps have no markings all the parts are magnetic except the very top brass the burner and the ring around the glass any Idea if it is correct or who made them the car has no signs of other brackets having been fitted.

Im not sure if the cars always came with the oil lamps I know the headlights were an option this car has a set of saxon brand headlamps. 

[trimacar]

Nice car!  The clutch is a multi disk one which rides in oil, it may have dried up a bit.

 

Your car is an early 1911 due to doors and running board design.  At the end of 1910 they had made about 6500 cars, so that fits right in.

 

Mine had been in storage when I got it and smoked, you’ll need new rings.

 

Lights we’re an option, many had solid brass E&J lamps.

 

Everything looks very correct on your car.  I would highly recommend getting magneto rebuilt, if it locks up damage to cam gear is very difficult to fix.

 

[KenHupp20]

Nice find,looks very original.

[Jeff Spear]

I have found that the oil lamps are E & J from and old sales flyer that shows them as the new model/style.

The top was made by Keystone Auto Top Co. In PA.  and seems to be fairly common on hupmobile's with tops. 

I found an old floor mat under the seat its pretty cool and shows the embossing style they had.  There were some tools under the seat as well but no way of knowing if any are original survivors. The car has an oil can mount on the firewall and I read on here that they came with an oil can I have a couple oil cans with the car I need to see if one fits the mount. 

I will rebuild the mag when I do the rest I don't plan to run it much as is. 

The rear hubs are very loose on the axles like an 1/8" of wobble they have the nut so I assume tapered I need to remove them and see whats going on. 

More as it happens.

Jeff

 

[Jeff Spear]

Is has the tapered axles with three pieces of shim stock on one side and two on the other the keyways are wallowed out about an 1/8" wider than they should be and the hub has at least an 1/8" of play to the axle with the shims so id say the axle and hub are both shot. I know how to fix the axle but not sure about the hub. Im suprised a tapered setup is so worn it must of been run loose for a long time. On other cars I have with this setup you can't get them apart without a puller. I started to take some of the car apart today it looks kind of sporty without the doors,  window  and top. 

[1910Hupp]

Nice original car -First original  mat I have  ever seen . I made mine 

[trimacar]

That original mat is a cool find, although I don't quite grasp the shape that I'm looking at and how it would fit in the floorboard area.

 

Nice reproduction, too, Karl...

 

[Jeff Spear]

The small cut out is throttle it's not the best picture I will get it cleaned up and post some better pictures.

Karl, I would be very interested in the process to make a rubber mat yours looks great. When I get this old one cleaned up  I can CAD 3d draw the pattern and cnc route a negative of it to cast rubber into but I don't know much about rubber casting and the internet didn't really give me great answers looks like ureathane might be the thing to use? 

 

I removed the leather door/side panel coverings and the wood in this car is near perfect so far so this restoration just got way easier at least the side panels. 

 

I also read on here that 45% silver solder is a close match color wise to polished brass the upper window frame was cracked about 8" long on one side I think it filled with water and froze at some point so I v'd out the crack and tried the 45% solder then ground and polished the repair it's very close you have to really look to see anything I don't know of anything better.  Most of what you can see in the picture is reflections. There is one little  line near the bend that could use a bit more sanding other than that im happy.

 

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Jeff Spear
Add Info (see edit history)

[1910Hupp]

Jeff I used  Devcon flexible 80 Urethrane Putty. 

I made up  a metal  mould on a  CNC   machine . The I placed it on the the mat marked its edges  and then chisiled off the pyramids  in that area .

Then I coated the area with Devcon FL-20 primer which ensures adhesion  of  the  Putty to the mat .  Then  I  put the mould   back in place and treated it  to  a  good  spray  of    canola  oil on it and the surrounding  mat  

Then  packed  the mould with  The Urethane putty   and Inverted it on the  area   of the  removed pyramids . Urethane oozed out  everywhere . It was weighted and left for 24 hours. Thanks to the  canola  the mould  realised easily and  the over flow  did not  stick on the mat where I didn't want it

Edited December 3, 2021 by 1910Hupp (see edit history)

[Jeff Spear]

On 12/2/2021 at 9:47 PM, 1910Hupp said:

Jeff I used  Devcon flexible 80 Urethrane Putty. 

I made up  a metal  mould on a  CNC   machine . The I placed it on the the mat marked its edges  and then chisiled off the pyramids  in that area .

Then I coated the area with Devcon FL-20 primer which ensures adhesion  of  the  Putty to the mat .  Then  I  put the mould   back in place and treated it  to  a  good  spray  of    canola  oil on it and the surrounding  mat  

Then  packed  the mould with  The Urethane putty   and Inverted it on the  area   of the  removed pyramids . Urethane oozed out  everywhere . It was weighted and left for 24 hours. Thanks to the  canola  the mould  realised easily and  the over flow  did not  stick on the mat where I didn't want it

Very cool, I have been drawing up this mat in fusion 360 CAD and I talked to a company called alumalite that sells urethane casting resin they have a 60 durometer urethane that can be tinted black that the rep I spoke to think's will work well. I will cnc route out the negative in particle board I think with a couple coats of clear and a mould release that should work fine. I just downloaded a clip art of the hupmobile logo I will compare it for correctness and see if I can vectorize it tomorrow and get that part done. Then I just need to figure out the lower part I don't know if the original mat was two part or if the bottom portion just got tore off of this years ago. Some closer inspection may tell the story. 

May as well start the restoration with the floor mat.

 

Jeff

 

[Jeff Spear]

I have the upper part finished in cad I will invert and cut it out of a block at the proper depth to make the negative image for the router.  I applied a render to make it look like rubber not sure how well the screen shot will show up. 

I think I will go ahead and just add length to this to make it a full size one piece mat it could always be cut if needed.

Im trying to decide if the lower should be the diamond pattern with a line border or just lines any suggestions has anyone else ever had or seen surviving parts of a floor mat? It's not that big of a deal but if im making from scratch it may as well be as correct as can be determined. 

 

Jeff

[PMac]

Jeff,

Your cad model looks great. I have a couple of pictures here that I saw on a post recently (cannot remember where, perhaps you posted them?). If you blow the pictures up, it seems like the same pattern on the toe board (less the Hupmobile Script) is carried onto the floor boards albeit in three separate sections. Have a look and see what you think.

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by PMac (see edit history)

[Jeff Spear]

Peter, Thank you so much for this info it answers all my questions it is indeed diamond pattern with line borders.

The pieces make sense for ease of floorboard removal. 

I do see a middle board with just lines and appears to be same material and wear.

I also know now that my upper part is not torn off but was indeed one piece and the cutouts are the same as this one.

This made my day.

 

Jeff

[PMac]

Jeff, I am really glad I could help. I am curious if you think these mats were originally black, white or even grey? I am mindful that tires at this time were natural rubber white/grey in finish. From the original sample you have, are there any clues re color?

Cheers,

Peter

[Jeff Spear]

The parts of mine that cleaned up are black and the backside that didn't get the weather is also black or a very dark grey. There's a canvas like layer in between the front and back. Of what I guess is a temperature vulcanized rubber. I will post some more pictures later.

[Jeff Spear]

We got a break in the weather today so I uncovered the hup I don't have it inside at the moment and pulled the engine. Now I can start assessing it for needed repairs.

 

I did't fully understand the front of the torque tube/ujoint/ball socket set up. I thought I had to pull the plugs and drive out a pin so I did then I loosened the pinch bolt on the ball. But when I pulled the engine trans forward I realized the ball just comes out and the square shaft does the same I guess the pin is just for u joint removal it will be removed anyway so that's fine. 

My cam gear is some kind of bronze looking metal so I guess thats been done the poured bearings feel great on the cam.  The rods are way loose but appear to have a big shim in all of them so maybe adjustable we shall see.  That's are far as  I got today.  Oh and the block has a patch rivited onto the bottom/side front under number 1 cylinder looks like a nice job. Im guessing a crank was broke at some point or maybe a rod failure.

 

 

[Jeff Spear]

Well crap the cam plate is broken 6" long I didn't see it until cleaning it. I don't think I can repair it with the cam in as the heat will likely melt the Babbitt I may try whats the worst that can happen I end up removing the cam anyway.

The patch on the block is bigger than I thought the front was nearly broke off at one point makes me nervous but its probably run this way for a long time.  The crankshaft is almost good enough to use but I think I'll have it ground  it would go again but I'm this far. And dang that flywheel was on there broke a 5 ton puller jaw took some heat to it after that and it came off.  I didn't realize how much pressure i was putting on it the first time i'm glad I didn't crack the flywheel hub. 

 

I was surprised to find all the Babbitt in the engine is removable at first I thought it had come loose in the rods but then realized it is indeed a Babbitt insert. 

I guess I need to make a mold to pour them. 

 

One area of concern is the front crank main journal it has pretty good wear but it can't be ground much or you get into the taper area I hope it cleans up with a light grind. The current front bearing is a brass/bronze bushing is that a repair or factory? All the others are white metal. 

 

The bore is stock and not all that bad it will need bored but only the smallest oversize. the piston rings gave me a laugh. one piston had 2 rings in the top 1 in the middle and 3 in the bottom groove.  None of them had an actual scraper ring in the bottom groove and maybe they never used one and just had all compression rings. I will use oil control rings when I rebuild it.  

 

Anyone have a non broken crankcase and cam plate before I reuse and repair what I have? 

Or any input on the existing crankcase repair It seems to have been holding up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[trimacar]

I have a spare engine that would be available, nothing cracked but needs some work to free it up.  I'd hate to see you put together a broken engine.

 

I will tell you that the camshaft bearings are a bear to replace.  Since they're poured in place, you have to get a jig to hang the camshaft in midair, build dams, then pour babbitt.    Beyond my capability....

[1910Hupp]

Jeff Both  the  crankcase and the  cam plate are  repairable . Cast Iron weldng is difficult   but  if done by some one  who knows what they are doing is very sucessful .

Worse damage on my engine has been sucessfully repaired . The secret is preheating prior to and slow cooling post  welding . my repairs are invisable

 

The secret to  doing the  camshaft bearings is to wrap the journals in newspaper prior to set up . When you pour the babbitt  the newspaper carbonises and gives you perfect clearances.

The other way to do it is to   coat the journals  with soot from a  smokey acetylene flame  but the newspaper method is much easier, more accurate and works much better 

 

Watch the  nuts on the   rod bearings -Its mine and others experience that they tend to work  loose over time -The reason for the  "leg out of bed" - When I  shared off  magneto drive  of  my camshaft and stripped it   down  we found that after 3000 miles post rebuild  the rod  nuts were finger tight  and the camshaft  had  a significant bend it it -efforts to straighten it resulted in two short camshafts ! A new camshaft was made and Installed -hence  the advice above- Karl 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by 1910Hupp (see edit history)

[Jeff Spear]

Im not to bad at cast welding im going to try a repair on the side plate.  Im debating the different options. Cast will braze nice and be strong but not invisible repair but thats ok it gets painted.  Stainless rod tig welds cast nicely. Then there's spray welding. And also rods for cast.  

The side cover I'll probably just tig with stainless. 

Its the block that needs to be strong and not warp.

I may work out something with trimacar on a block just knowing it can be available if I screw up mine makes feel ok about seeing how it welds.

[Steve Hughes]

I hadn't looked at this forum in quite a while.  I found it interesting about the discussion of the floorboard mats.  Here are some pictures of the mats in my car.  It seems to be a fairly low mileage car.  The right finger is broken off of the front floorboard, but I see that it is broken off of yours too.  Must have been a common occurrence.  I also am showing some closeups of the mounting hardware that is still there.  I hope this helps in the reproduction that you are working on.  If you get it worked out to make some, I would be interested in a set.  If not, I may attempt to make some myself.

 

[Steve Hughes]

More pictures

[Steve Hughes]

[Steve Hughes]

[Steve Hughes]

Last one.

[Jeff Spear]

Excellent, Thank you Steve. I have the cad work done we are going to route the molds out of corian counter top material per recommendation from the urethane supplier.  I may have a extra couple ribs around my lower pieces but they can always be trimmed to the nearest one from what i see of surviving mats that seems to be what was done anyway. 

If it all works well I would gladly cast a set for anyone wanting them.

I hope to try routing the molds this week. Depending on tooling marks we may need to further post process the molds. light media blast, clear coat, etc. to smooth out the finish once were happy with the mold the casting process should be fairly painless and repeatable provided it releases properly from the mold.  I'm currently waiting for black pigment that is back ordered I hope it arrives by the time im ready to cast one. 

[PMac]

Jeff,

Yes please! Please put me down for a set of mats. I would be happy to share your set up costs also. 

Cheers,

Peter

[Steve Hughes]

Likewise, as Peter noted, I would like to share in set up costs as well.  Will help to get the per unit cost down if we spread it over several units.

Steve

[Jeff Spear]

We did a test run of one file today on the router in mdf it looks very good we are going to do a tool change at the end and go over the hupmobile script with a 1/16" tool to get finer detail but the rest looks great even the hupmobile is fine but we'll make it better because we can. Next will be the final molds. provided this works and I see no reason it won't  I will come up with a cost and add a small amount to help cover the set up as noted and hopefully make a few sets affordably.  I don't need to turn a profit on these but if I can loose less and make my set more affordable that would be great.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Jeff Spear (see edit history)

[PMac]

Looks fantastic Jeff. 

Cheers,

Peter

[Steve Hughes]

A little hard to see detail, but from what I can see it looks great.  Looking forward to seeing the end result and what the cost per unit would turn out to be.  Thanks for doing this.

[Jeff Spear]

final touches have been made to the mat molds tool path next we make the real ones still waiting on pigment so no rush but probably will cut them in the next week or so. 

 In other news I removed the cam very easy to set up a center jig if you need to do this just melt out the two ends first and the cam is center drilled on the ends you can then bolt a couple angles to the cam housing and drill them for sharpened screws to center in the cam to hold it.  Or make a couple large washers to position the cam in the core casting holes this is what I did.  Once your happy with your fixture you can remove it make sure it re installs accurately. Then melt out the remaining three bearings this is actually a very straight forward task once you get into it  I'll pour the three centers first then remove my jig and pour the ends. 

I decided on a braze repair for the cam plate the cast brazed excellent it flowed out very well and should be a great repair.  I drilled the ends of all the cracks and ground it almost all the way through and did two passes of braze with preheat the whole time and extensive peening to relieve stresses in the joint it did not move when unbolted from the crankcase. 

I 3d printed the cam position washers but they could be made on a lathe or by hand out of fender washers or like I mentioned above use the center holes in the ends of the cam. 

The picture of the inside of the cam plate below is before brazing that crack closed up so tight you can't even see it after the repair. 

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Jeff Spear (see edit history)

[William Van Dierendonck]

Great job on the floor mat!  We need one for our 11 Model 20 Runabout and will gladly share in the development cost, thank you!

[Jeff Spear]

Once I cast some and get a material amount and cost I'll let you guys know what a set will be and order up a larger qty. of urethane I think if I buy a 5 gallon kit it'll save some money. And there is enough interest that I think that might be they way to go. 

[Jeff Spear]

The two automotive machine shops i called didn't want to mess with boring the cylinders and honing a blind bore.

So I was able to use a friends horizontal milling machine and bore them. Then with advice from sunnen on stone dressing for blind honing and technique. I was able to use my bar hone to achieve a bore that is round and straight to within .0005 or better. I still have about .0015 to get to size but im waiting for the Pistons to finish. In case they are a little off.

[KenHupp20]

I’m not an expert on such things,but was once told it is very important to radius the end of the cut into a blind bore. The fillet increase strength and relieves stress.Perhaps you have already done this.

Ken

[Jeff Spear]

2 hours ago, KenHupp20 said:

I’m not an expert on such things,but was once told it is very important to radius the end of the cut into a blind bore. The fillet increase strength and relieves stress.Perhaps you have already done this.

Ken

Ken you are correct in this case the factory radius remains intact only a very small amount of the overbore cut beyond the factory combustion chamber relief and that was hand blended in as its above any piston ring contact area. The top has about a 1/4" radius with a slight relief leading into the bore to help with the honing process same as the factory did. If you had a large overbore and cut a ridge at the top you would need to either finish with a radius tool or hand blend it. I only had to go .030 over so just barely cut a ridge in a few spots and I blended it into the factory radius. 

 

 

[1910Hupp]

Jeff - you do nice work -Even though I made my own mat -I did it with very limited knowledge of what was original  -Hence I would be keen to buy one  of yours when they are done 

Regards Karl 

[Jeff Spear]

This car is kicking my butt but I'm pushing forward. I removed the rear end and of course its no good. I'm almost at the point of removing my backing plates and installing them onto a T ford rear axle and cutting down the ford torque tube and threading it for the hup ball end. 

But I really like to keep as much of the original car as i can so I am going to try and fit ford internals into the hup housing.  I just won an ebay for a ring, pinion, carrier, and spider gears from a T so I can get them in my hands and see what it'll take I think the gears are even good. Its a 3.63 ratio that should be fine the was a 4:1 but im not to worried about going 3:63.

 

My housing is broken in several spots where the torque tube bolts on and some less than stellar mind attempted to braze it what a mess it is.  I think a nickel rod would have been better in this application but I may have to re-braze it properly depending on how clean I can get the brass off and out of the pores.  

Other problems the torque tube is loose in the lower casting, someone ground on the carrier where the ring gear mounts to the point it may be ruined it is about 1/8" run-out and butchered badly this ruined the ring and pinion. I have a new ring gear but with the cost of having a pinion made and the fact the the carrier is in bad shape I am hoping to fit the T stuff. I know the spider gears work and I think someone else on here fit all T stuff in their housing. 

If my carrier was in better shape I might even attempt to make the pinion gear but you got to know when to fold em. 

Hopefully I can get a good repair on the housing and torque tube I drilled out the torque tube rivets and pulled it out I actually think loctite slip fit might be a great fix with new rivets on that part. I could make a new tube easy but loctite retaining compound  is even easier and that stuff works really well. 

I've got everthing cleaned up I'll revisit it all and decide what to do. Converting a model T housing is tempting with so much wrong it just wouldn't have the ribbed case.

[trimacar]

Hupmobile offered two options for the Model 20 on rear end ratios, one was a 3.5:1 and the other was a 4.0:1.  I can only assume that the latter was when a car was sold in a hilly area, to get a slight advantage climbing them.  The 3.63 should be a good ratio.  If you start going off the grid on original, consider figuring out a way to get a second gear between the stock low and high.  As one of my friends says, you "row" a Hupp up a hill, low then high, back to low then back to high, and so on.  He also stated that it's better to own a touring car than a runabout, as that gives you two more people to help push!

 

I know the spider gears fit with only minor modification, not sure about all the other internals.  The Model 20 was a little odd in that the pinion gear, at least on my car, is the machined end of the drive shaft.  In other words, there's no separate gear that is removable, gear and driveshaft are all one piece.  Should be easy enough to make a shaft for a separate gear, though.

 

Sounds like your car had a rough life.  There are literally hundreds of 1909-1911 Model 20s still in existence, I attribute it to the fact that they were really just "around town" cars, and when the family bought something else newer they took up so little space to store away, and there wasn't enough metal on them to junk!

 

All that said, darn they are good looking little cars (I almost said cute!), here's mine...