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Model 48 Locomobile


Mike Martin
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3 hours ago, bubba said:

Hey Ed. I found the pictures that I posted on here but now I can’t.  It has to be the same car. I remember it was around 30k. It had A high serial number and the later gauges.

Bubba: Advise again where to look for those photos. I know little about the site.

Tks Mike

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16 hours ago, Grimy said:

To me, the hood side panels and door--and knobs--are 1930 Pierce Model B. I agree that the hood is a later replacement--but why?

When I saw the hood I was reminded old body man l knew. We were working on an old classic car and I asked him what he thought of it. He stepped back  and said “ the hood fits like a saddle on a sow” Same goes for that hood.

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On 10/29/2021 at 12:45 PM, edinmass said:

Mike, click on the above photo 1911 - 1927 Loco thread......

Ok. I see it now. The car was for years in a basement garage of the third owner in the Belhaven subdivision in Jackson, Ms along with an old, fine Cadillac and some model T's the owner had. The car was moved to a building in Rankin Cty just E of Jxn and I think was there when Dr Bill bought it. The third owner died. I will talk with his brother this next week and get a little more info about the Locomobile. One of the pictures shows lots of parts. Hopefully Dr Bill has all of those.  

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Hello Mike, The history of the Locomobile is sure something that would be very good to keep with the Locomobile.  I good search of the Locomobile Archives at the Bridgeport public library may help with the early history of this Locomobile.  The Bridgeport library is a terrific source with the most ammeanable employees.  I would encourage anyone needing Locomobile information, be a regular with that Library.

Al

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11 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Any new developments on the potential sale of this nice custom bodied Locomobile Town car?

Al

I am to go see the car on 11/11. I'll verify some of the numbers. I am to get to see the file that Dr Bill has on the car at that time. I'll post photos here when I return.

Tks

Mike 

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6 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

I hope that it is not a health issue for Dr. Bill.  I am interested to see where the window winder handles are located and also the interior door opening handle.

Al

Al: It is not his health. Another issue. I'll see him on 11/18. I'm going to take 100+ photos. He has a lot of information in that file on the car he said.

Mike

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I saw the Model 48 Locomobile again today. I took 100+ photos. Some are attached. I'm going to try to get these where all 100+ can be seen by you AACA folks. We will be trying to determine a sales price. The Serial Number is shown. It matches the engine number. He has a parts manual and a new owner manual, both published in 1924.  

2021-11-18 Locomobile Nov 18 2021 001.JPG

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2021-11-18 Locomobile Nov 18 2021 048.JPG

2021-11-18 Locomobile Nov 18 2021 034.JPG

2021-11-18 Locomobile Nov 18 2021 050.JPG

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2021-11-18 Locomobile Nov 18 2021 062.JPG

2021-11-18 Locomobile Nov 18 2021 064.JPG

2021-11-18 Locomobile Nov 18 2021 066.JPG

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Mike, You have shared some nice pictures.  Did you start the engine during your evaluation?  Did you happen to notice what the tire size was on the rear of the automobile?  I am surprised that this Locomobile shows over 68,000 miles on the odometer.  (I would have guessed much less than those miles).

Al

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Great car, and great photos....thanks for posting. I think it's fair to say it's American coachwork. American wheels, American lights, ext. Doesn't take away from the car. Interestingly that car is unusual as a town car with nice lines being so early and so tall. Most of the time one would look at such a car that is similar from the era and dismiss it as square, clunky, awkward, and unattractive. Not in this car........it has what we like to call eyeball.......restored in correct period colors and upholstery and it would be stunning. 68K on the clock is rather high milage for most Loco 48's that I have seen. Usually a bunch of reasons, but many are found with very little milage on them. Only drawback to the car is restoration cost..........that car done correctly would give Bill Gates a cash flow headache. It should be done, only question is will it. I could see someone just wanting a great car and making it go down the road to be enjoyed as close to its current condition as possible. I am certain we will all watch with interest the new owner......and what he chooses to do. As far as sale price? It's terribly difficult to price...........if it were mine, I think I would try a private sale in the usual ways at a fairly reasonable number.......... what is that number? Has nothing to do with past price, or current price similar cars.......... I would try and stay as low as possible only because the condition itself will turn away most interested people.....put a high asking price will probably scare away potential buyers. I like the car, and am a HUGE fan of it, that said........my number for current market value would probably be upsetting to the current owner.......

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I have some paper work on the car now. It shows that the body work is by the French company Kellner Body Number 17871. The paperwork states that the car was shipped there for the body work. Then back to Pittsburg where it was owned by a steel company magnate there. It was driven to Pascagoula, Ms in 1942 by the owner then Robert Wellwood (nephew of the magnate?). From there there were several owners before Dr Bill bought it in 2004.    

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Mike....can you expand on what the paperwork is? I'm wondering it the car was overseas on tour and had work done there........certainly anything is possible. Is there a body number tag on the car? Door sills, body tags, trim items............ things don't seem to add up. That being said, I think the car has the same value if it's French or American coachwork. No axe to grind....I'm more interested in figuring out what it is....or isn't, either way its a very interesting car. 

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Mike, Thanks for the additional information.  I am curious if any early pictures exist showing this Locmobile and different points in time, including potentially France at Kellner.  Maybe some of the early owners, in the south, have pictures.  I was not surprised to see the 600 x 21 balloon tires on the Locomobile.  That size was more the fashion by 1925 than the old style high pressure 35 x 5 or 36 x 6 tires.  This type of project will capture the interest of someone that has vision and willing to invest sweat equity or someone with real deep pockets.  Either way, it is my hope to be able to follow this project along the way to the next owner and beyond.  It is certainly good that as much original support information exists that helps to prove its provenance. 

Al

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Quick test as to if it is French coachwork is to check hardware on the windshield or door mechanisms to see if they are metric thread........

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I'll have to go back to look for any body tags. But I believe the French firm did the work. There are several letters from people that would have known saying that it was shipped to France. I don't have any early photos of the car. There is a a original owners manual as well a an original 'Parts List for a Model 48 Serial Number 19000 and Up'. Both published in 1924. Also "The Locomobile Book" published in 1912.

 

I hope that the right person will come along and buy the car and then restore it. It truly is special. 

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2021-11-18 008.JPG

2021-11-18 007.JPG

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Ok...thats an appraisal from someone who's working with information provided to them for an appraisal. Not a basis of fact, but history or lore passed down with a car...oftentimes correct, sometimes not. I bet ten to one it was the first time the guy ever laid eyes on a Loco. Let's be open and honest here........Kellner body experts do not exist. Maybe 50 years ago there were some kicking around Paris. Fact is a 48 Loco is a very rare bird.......enough so that it makes even "experts in the field" make mistakes and learn new things every day. Currently I have an early car with a custom body that we think we have identified but can't be 100 percent sure. Thanks for having the courage to post the info.......... I commend you for that. It's still a great car regardless of anyones opinion to who built the body.

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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I agree with what Ed said.  Anything on that appraisal should be taken with a grain of salt.   There should be a body tag of some sort on the car,  perhaps on the floorboards in front of the driver or passenger seat.

 

I don't think it affects the value of the car 1 dollar if the body is French or American.

 

Not impossible,  but very strange that the car would be shipped to Europe to be bodied then shipped back to the US.  Unless it was being built especially for a European tour, and there was a financial reason to only ship the chassis.

Edited by alsancle (see edit history)
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Interestingly the under-shots of chassis and rear end, brakes look really clean without surface rust. It looks potentially that this has been repainted - no? Also the wood structure (exposed) is uniformly painted black so there too, restored earlier? At least not every piece of metal is rusted/oxidized although a lot of small parts like hinges, latches, the wing nuts for the storage compartments should get replated. On the interior do we guess that the broad piece of wood below the window sash which holds the crank is the final finish piece or wood veneer have gone over that? It looks a little plain. Keep the photos coming if you can.

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Hallo Mike,

thanks a lot for these photos, they give a good overview. The Loco's mechanical condition seems quite good. Very important: most of it seems complete and not modified or messed with.

Complete Delco ignition, correct late Ball&Ball carburetor, watercooled intake manifold, all gauges correct and good, wooden wheels look ok, oil can, klaxon horn, 12V generator, hydraulic shock absorbers, correct Tecelamit grease nipples all over, rubber steering wheel in nice condition, and many more details. I is a pity that the car got damaged, and then someone started a restoration and then stopped the work. Unfortunately the leather, wood and sheet metal work needs to be done, no other way...but worth every effort. A great car. Good wishes to everyone who will put his or her hands on.

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3 hours ago, Ittenbacher Frank said:

Hallo Mike,

thanks a lot for these photos, they give a good overview. The Loco's mechanical condition seems quite good. Very important: most of it seems complete and not modified or messed with.

Complete Delco ignition, correct late Ball&Ball carburetor, watercooled intake manifold, all gauges correct and good, wooden wheels look ok, oil can, klaxon horn, 12V generator, hydraulic shock absorbers, correct Tecelamit grease nipples all over, rubber steering wheel in nice condition, and many more details. I is a pity that the car got damaged, and then someone started a restoration and then stopped the work. Unfortunately the leather, wood and sheet metal work needs to be done, no other way...but worth every effort. A great car. Good wishes to everyone who will put his or her hands on.

 

The 48 was 12V?

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3 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

The 48 was 12V?

Loco with 12V? Oh yes, the later ones, very advanced! Also the Starter motor arrangement with fool-proof button-start and with solenoid, an efficiently working voltage regulator, fuses for the main circuits, and much more. Don't forget Mr. Riker had a lot of electrical experience.

I am not 100% sure but when I compare photos of various years of model 48's, I believe that around 1919/1920 must have been the change from 6V to 12V. It's so easy to see: The 6V Westinghouse generators are short and high with the regulator mounted on top, the 12V are cylindrical, the regulator mounted at the rear end.

The 1918 sales book says: 6V, 120 Ah battery, tandem ignition two-spart dualsystem. The 1920 sales book mentions a 142A battery and high tension magneto, no voltage. The 1924 manual already clearly states 12V, 105Ah Battery, Delco Twin-spark ignition (no magneto).

Lima 1917 Healey-collapsible coupe 4.jpg

 

 

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Operators Reference Book 1924 page 8 (2).jpg

Edited by Ittenbacher Frank
selected better photos (see edit history)
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I concur, Locomobile was trying to bring the now antiquated 48 to a new market, with 12 volt system, advanced ignition and other electrical updates.  Another subtle change was a switch from the use of high pressure tires to using easier riding balloon tires.  You can't miss the 4 wheel brakes now offered on the later Locomobile 48 series automobiles.  What a welcome improvement, to stop a huge and heavy vehicle, four wheel brakes would have been.

Al

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Mike, Do you see, in any of the attending documentation, any photographs of this town car from an earlier time frame, either the 1930's or 1940's?  Do you or Dr. Bill have any idea how long this Locomobile has been stripped of the paint work?  During your evaluation, did you see any hints of paint that would suggest what the original colors would have been?

Al

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