1937 Buick Special voltage regulator ions

[John Jacques]

As I am wrapping up the restoration to my 1937 Buick Coupe 46S, I discovered that the battery was not being recharged. I took the generator to a local repair facility and it was tested good. My thoughts were that it must be the voltage regulator. After searching the shop manual for the correct voltage regulator (Delco Remy 1118213), I realized that the voltage regulator that came with the car only had the number 315 stamped on the case. My next thoughts were to find a 1118213 regulator. After an extensive search I did locate a rebuilt one on ebay for $75.00. I thought that price was a little steep for a rebuilt, but with no other choice I purchased it. After installing it, it was noted that it also was not charging. I then took it,  along with the generator to a local repair facility (been in business for 30+ years) to have them tested. I was informed that the generator was fine but the regulator wasn't. I am in the process of obtaining a refund from the seller. My question is that seeing that it is difficult locating a 1118213 regulator, would anyone know if an interchangeable part number is available? 

Thanks for any help that you may give, Jakes

[37_Roadmaster_C]

There are several options for replacing that regulator. The original regulator has 5 terminals and was only used for a few years. The replacements did not have the auto start lockout, but did have a way around that. Unfortunately, I do not know the specifics. Others here do and I am sure they will chime in soon.

[Bloo]

I don't have enough books handy to figure out what is what. Off the top of my head, I don't believe 1118213 is the original regulator for 1937. The original had 5 terminals, and Buick did not make them for very long. The first replacements had 4 terminals. That might be the 1118213, not sure. Later Buick suggested you replace it with a 3 terminal regulator.

 

It is possible @MCHinson or @Gary W might know something about which regulators can be used. The original Buick update documents are floating around somewhere. I may be able to turn up some information later. I would prefer an original 5-terminal regulator. It will be only be available used, and will probably need a little work.

 

Some things that would be useful for us to know in order to give you any advice:

 

What is the number on the Delco tag on your generator?

 

How many terminals did your old regulator have?

 

How many wires are there at the regulator?

 

Is there a wire at the regulator that has been cut off, taped, or is unused?

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Bloo (see edit history)

[hwellens]

Here is some info:  Original equipment book calls for 5807 (2 core regulator). You are using 1118213. Comes in 2 and 3 core regulators). Both are negative ground. I know nothing about Buicks. See below and make your own conclusions.

See this link - https://www.ebay.com/itm/165119343346?hash=item2671e13af2:g:Nn4AAOSwhMBhYjK4

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by hwellens
Add data (see edit history)

[John Jacques]

 This vehicle was purchased from the previous owner while it was under restoration. The chassis was completely restored including a rebuilt engine, transmission and possibly the rear end. The generator was already installed and it did not have an ID tag on it. However, the tag was saved and in with other parts.  The (black)tag reads; Anderson, Ind. Delco Remy, Model; 734Z, and serial # 233918. It is a two brush generator with two wires. One to the field (F) post and one to the armature (A) post. The only voltage regulator that was provided was a Delco Remy 4 terminal regulator bearing the number 315, and has two cores.  I am aware that the vehicle originally came with a 5 terminal regulator, which Buick only used for a brief time, replacing it with a 4 terminal voltage regulator. I am also aware that the ignition wire would not be used when replacing the system from a 5 wire regulator to a 4 wire regulator. That extra wire has been taped off, as I did not want to cut it off from the new wire harness. Hope this added information is helpful.

[MCHinson]

Off the top of my head, The original 1937 5 terminal regulator was #5807. The 4 terminal replacement was part # 1118213, often referred to as "213" which is stamped on the bracket. It was used on late 1937 and 1938 Buicks  The later 3 terminal replacement was part # 1118203, often referred to as "203" which is stamped on the bracket. It was used as original equipment on Buicks starting in 1939. 

 

I am fairly sure that both the 1937 and 1938 Factory Shop Manual has a section on adjusting the voltage regulator points. I would consult the shop manual. I have a number of different documents regarding voltage regulators. I will see if I can post some of those in the next day or so if needed. The documents cover wiring changes to use later voltage regulators on 1937 Buicks.

[Bloo]

4 hours ago, John Jacques said:

 This vehicle was purchased from the previous owner while it was under restoration. The chassis was completely restored including a rebuilt engine, transmission and possibly the rear end. The generator was already installed and it did not have an ID tag on it. However, the tag was saved and in with other parts.  The (black)tag reads; Anderson, Ind. Delco Remy, Model; 734Z, and serial # 233918. It is a two brush generator with two wires. One to the field (F) post and one to the armature (A) post. The only voltage regulator that was provided was a Delco Remy 4 terminal regulator bearing the number 315, and has two cores.  I am aware that the vehicle originally came with a 5 terminal regulator, which Buick only used for a brief time, replacing it with a 4 terminal voltage regulator. I am also aware that the ignition wire would not be used when replacing the system from a 5 wire regulator to a 4 wire regulator. That extra wire has been taped off, as I did not want to cut it off from the new wire harness. Hope this added information is helpful.

 

I'll have to look up the 734z when I can get to some books, but this car should NOT have a 2 brush generator. All the regulators we have been discussing are for a 3 brush generator. If it has been updated to a 2 brush generator, then it needs a newer type voltage regulator with 3 cores.

 

EDIT: 734z is a 1937 Buick starter, not a generator.

 

EDIT 2: The correct generators for 1937 Buick are 918-B or 918-G (for Special), 918-A or 918H (for big Buicks).

 

The only difference between the Special's generator and a big car generator is the pulley, but I can tell you from experience getting the Special's pulley separately can be a real pain.

 

The difference between the early generators (918-B, 918-A) and the later ones (918-H, 918-G) is the size of the rear bushing. It is bigger in the early generators. The armature and rear end bell are different to make that happen. The later generator with the smaller bushing is more desirable in my opinion because that bushing is a standard Delco part used in a zillion generators and available from any auto electric store. The early rear bushing will have to be sourced by size from a bushing manufacturer, as auto electric sources do not have it. You will most likely have to buy several, and it will probably will need to be machined.

 

 

Edited October 16, 2021 by Bloo (see edit history)

[John Jacques]

So, now I know that the tag numbers for the generator I provided were actually for a starter not a generator.  It was mentioned that the 2 brush generator is an upgrade generator from a 3 brush generator. That said, I guess that I should stay with that, and I should be looking for a 3 core regulator vs. 2 core to be compatible with the two brush generator that I have. I will search through the leftover parts that came with the car in attempts to locate the generator's original ID tag. Keeping this upgraded generator - Good or Bad idea?????

[Oldtech]

I would say yes. Regulation is much better with the three coil regulator. Finding one that works properly is the challenge. 

[Bloo]

The regulators we have been discussing thus far are for a 3 brush generator, and to be more specific, a 3 brush generator with one field coli wired hot, and the other field coil wired to the third brush. That is a bit unusual, but was Buick practice from 37-39.

 

The difference between a two core regulator and a three core regulator is the two core has 1) a cutout  and 2) a voltage regulator. A 3 core adds 3) a current regulator.

 

A third brush regulates current via the third brush, that's why the third brush exists. Two brush generators need a current regulator because they have no third brush. Running a 2 brush generator generator on a two core would theoretically work until one day something drew too much current (like a half-discharged battery). Then the generator would burn up. It might even literally catch fire.

 

You could go back to a stock 37 Buick generator here (it's only a 25 amp system), or you could get an appropriate regulator for the 2 brush generator you have. It should be 3 core and negative ground, with the current matched to the generator size. If you are going to use your 2 brush generator, you need to figure out exactly what it is.

 

If I remember correctly Delco 3 core regulators marked "201" or "301" were used on Chevrolets (and others) with 40 amp negative ground 2 brush generators. If you turn out to have a 40 amp generator, one of those might be the ticket.

 

 

Edited October 17, 2021 by Bloo (see edit history)

[John Jacques]

Interesting! If the 2 brush generator that I have is above 30 amps, won't that amperage effective the thermo breaker on the headlight switch causing them (and other lights) to blink? That is also a problem that I have been working on. If that is the case, maybe I should go back to a three brush generator.  Earlier, I had mentioned that I originally had a 315 regulator (2 core) and purchased a rebuilt 213 (2core) regulator that was found to be defective, and I am returning. While searching for a 3 core regulator, I came across an article that the 213 regulator is obsolete and replaced by the 315 regulator, and that one is also obsolete. Luckily I do have the 315 regulator (4 wire) if I would go back to the original 3 brush generator.  The repair shop that I took this generator too informed me that it was putting out 28 - 30 amps. I guess I really have to determine exactly what amp generator I do have and if it affects the light issue that I am experiencing. 

[Oldtech]

I think the breaker on the light switch is only for the lights and has nothing to do with the generator.  on my Chevy that is the case.

[Bloo]

As Oldtech says, it is a separate deal. A properly regulated generator system will only supply current that is drawn by accessories, up to the limit of the generator and regulator. For instance, if you only have ignition on, and the ignition only draws 4 amps, then the generator only suppliers 4 amps, no matter how powerful the generator system is.

 

If something draws more current than the generator can supply, then it should supply it's rated current and no more. It is held back from supplying more by the current regulator (on two brush systems) or by the third brush (on third brush systems).

 

Now when a circuit breaker trips out, it is either defective, and tripping at lower current than it should, or something connected to the circuit breaker is drawing too much current. Usually something connected to the breaker is drawing too much current.

[John Jacques]

This is why I like using this forum, I alway learn something that I did not know, and in PLAIN English. As far as the lights blinking go, I'll remove one wire at a time from the headlight switch to locate the problem.

Back to the generator/regulator problem. I will keep the 2 brush generator that I currently have and purchase a 3 core regulator. ANY suggestions regarding which 3 core regulator to purchase???? If the 3 core regulator happens to be a three wire regulator, how should it be hooked up?  I'm asking this because I went from the original 5 wire regulator to a 4 wire regulator having one extra wire. Now using a three wire regulator, I'll have two extra wires.

[Bloo]

I'm not sure i quite know enough to answer that. I don't have the right books to check, so some of this may be wild speculation. Still, I have some hints.

 

There are 2 issues. 1 is a proper regulator for the 2 brush generator, the other is Buick Autostart. I'll tackle the generator first.

 

A 2 brush generator will happily burn itself up trying to make more power than it is designed for. What limits it to its rating is the current regulator relay inside the voltage regulator assembly. A good possibility for a voltage regulator is one for a late 40s or early 50s Chevrolet. These were stamped "201" and "301", probably the last digits of a longer part number. They were 6 volt, negative ground, and had a fairly large generator, 40 amp I believe. If it matches, this will work as is. But, I don't know what generator you have.

 

The good news is even if you have something smaller for a generator, the current can be set. The bad news is you need a generator test set to adjust it, and not everyone has that laying around. Delco had different part numbers for the regulators for smaller generators, and there might be several internal differences, but the big difference is the current setting. it is just a limit to keep the generator from burning up. It is adjustable.

 

The other issue is Buick Autostart. 37 and 38 Buicks as you know came with a 5 terminal regulator. 3 of the terminals are the same as a 3 terminal regulator. Those are 1) "ARM" or "GEN' (goes to the generator brushes) 2) "FLD" (goes to the field terminal) and 3) "BAT" powers the car wiring and charges the battery. It probably goes to the ammeter or something in the dash.

 

The other 2 consist of a) ignition which the 4-terminal replacement does not need and b) a ground for the autostart. The terminal is only grounded when the system is not charging.

 

The starter relay gets it's power from the vacuum/throttle switch, and its ground from that terminal on the voltage regulator. The regulator terminal is a safety to make sure the starter cannot come on with the engine running. If the throttle is wide open, then there is theoretically no vacuum, so the vacuum switch might come on and try to engage the starter. But, if your foot is to the floor, the generator is probably charging. In that case the contact in the regulator would prevent the starter from engaging by removing the starter relay ground.

 

Later when Buick only supplied 3-terminal replacement regulators, they had you ground the wire. The car still works but you lose that safety feature. I guess you could do that.

 

There is a conversation going on in another thread where someone is possibly going to use a relay to get that safety feature back. I don't think he has tried it yet.

 

 

Edited October 18, 2021 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Pete O]

There is a NOS Delco Remy 1118213 still in an unopened box for sale on ebay $109.  IMO, that's not too bad.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255111685335?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D93410e078c554f1ca630d84d76b25724%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D384066763221%26itm%3D255111685335%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DGeneral+Motors&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A8cd2b0b8-301f-11ec-b3d1-1e8d90b3c788|parentrq%3A93cd099e17c0acf3838dd1cefffc172e|iid%3A1

[John Jacques]

The 1118213 that is on ebay is for the original 37 generator and that regulator only has two cores (or units). If I'm correct after reading all the information from this and other forums, I'll need a 3 unit regulator, seeing that I have a 2 brush generator. 

Perhaps Bloo's possibility of using a 201 or 301 regulator maybe the way to go.  If they are a three wire regulator I guess the thing to do is ground the ground wire from my 4 wire to a separate ground, as they probably is no ground wire terminal on those regulators. Replies......

[Bloo]

That should work.

[John Jacques]

Just ordered the 201. I'll update progress after installation.

Thanks to all !!!!!!!