1965 Buick Lesabre 400 performance question

[65LeSabre400]

I just purchased a 65 LeSabre. I've never owned a Buick let alone a vehicle older then me (40 years old).  The car runs good with the exception of a few minor flaws that I found. Ac compressor makes a high pitch noise when I turn it on. I noticed the belt really loose so hopefully that's an easy fix. When accelerating up hill, I hear a little rattling under the hood, but goes away as soon as I'm done climbing. And I just seen a very small oil spot on garage floor. Other then that, engine is extremely quiet, transmission shifts really smoothly, and starts up on the dime.  I would like more horse power without changing the look of the engine too much. Will it be worth the trouble of taking the engine out, send heads to machine shop, replace seals/gaskets, a cam, and EFI kit? 

[EmTee]

5 hours ago, 65LeSabre400 said:

I noticed the belt really loose so hopefully that's an easy fix.

 

That does indeed sound like the belt is slipping.  Your belt setup is similar to my '67 Riviera in that there's only one belt driving the compressor.  When I adjust my belt tension where I 'think' it should be, it screams like a banshee when I turn on the A/C.  I have to go back and cinch it up tighter (roughly 3/8" belt deflection midway between the crank and compressor) to eliminate the screech.  The shop manual says the belt tension should be "100 pounds", but I haven't quite figured out how to verify that value yet...

[65LeSabre400]

Thanks EmTee.  Do I have what is considered a "nailhead"?

[JohnD1956]

That is not a nailhead engine. Nailheads have the distributor in the back of the engine.  This is the new for Buick design, which is in the family bounded by the 215 to 455 cu in engine.  These early cars the valve covers were designed to look like nail head valve covers.  

[ol' yeller]

Your engine, if the air cleaner is correct, is the 300 V8. It is a cast iron block, heads and intake. 

It is an incredibly reliable engine. Yours is the high compression version of the 300. It has a 4 barrel carburetor and intake as well as high compression pistons. It is not a nailhead. If it is an untouched original then it has a phoenelic (plastic) coating on the cam gear. Buick did this to suppress timing gear noise. The coating disintegrates over time and falls off into the oil pan which also will eventually affect the timing. If you are considering any engine work, that is where I’d start and I’d figure on a new water pump as long as I’m in there. Head work is pretty easy to have done. When I did mine, I added hardened valve seats. Mine ran great on premium pump gas although mine was in a ‘65 Skylark. Nice car!

 

The rattle is likely the engine complaining about the grade or quality of today’s gas. Adjusting the timing and having the Carburetor adjusted properly should eliminate most of it.

Edited September 12, 2021 by ol' yeller
Additional thoughts (see edit history)

[old-tank]

6 hours ago, ol' yeller said:

Yours is the high compression version of the 300. It has a 4 barrel carburetor and intake

Buick already whipped as much horsepower out of that engine as possible short of boost or nitrous .  I have that same A6  substitute compressor on my 76 Olds and the belt squeals unless super tight.  Seems that the inertia to get it spinning is more that the A6, but it does cool well 

[65LeSabre400]

9 hours ago, ol' yeller said:

Your engine, if the air cleaner is correct, is the 300 V8. It is a cast iron block, heads and intake. 

It is an incredibly reliable engine. Yours is the high compression version of the 300. It has a 4 barrel carburetor and intake as well as high compression pistons. It is not a nailhead. If it is an untouched original then it has a phoenelic (plastic) coating on the cam gear. Buick did this to suppress timing gear noise. The coating disintegrates over time and falls off into the oil pan which also will eventually affect the timing. If you are considering any engine work, that is where I’d start and I’d figure on a new water pump as long as I’m in there. Head work is pretty easy to have done. When I did mine, I added hardened valve seats. Mine ran great on premium pump gas although mine was in a ‘65 Skylark. Nice car!

 

The rattle is likely the engine complaining about the grade or quality of today’s gas. Adjusting the timing and having the Carburetor adjusted properly should eliminate most of it.

What made you decide to do head work on your Skylark?  Will I be causing more harm if I wait till something starts messing up. Car drives pretty sweet as it is, but then again it's my first so no bench mark for comparison

[65LeSabre400]

3 hours ago, old-tank said:

Buick already whipped as much horsepower out of that engine as possible short of boost or nitrous .  I have that same A6  substitute compressor on my 76 Olds and the belt squeals unless super tight.  Seems that the inertia to get it spinning is more that the A6, but it does cool well 

Will a loose belt cause it to not blow cold? I feel air but doesn't get real cold

[NTX5467]

If the a/c gas is low, the compressor will make a knocking-type of sound when the compressor is running.  More freon is all it needs at that point.

 

A 300cid V-8 in a 4000lb car with only a 3-speed automatic, even with Switch-Pitch, is not going to be a fast off-the-line car, although it is no slouch, either.  DO check the speedometer's odometer calibration as those tires/wheels on the car now might affect it a good bit and can give an incorrect determination of speed/time/distance.

 

The "sound" you hear going up a hill is probably due to it needing Super Unleaded fuel in it.  Do verify that the initial, hot base idle timing is correct, though, for good measure.  Getting the hot base idle mixture and speed adjusted, too, is good to do, but that "idle mixture" is only good up to about 1000rpm.

 

"Head work" will not unlock great amounts of power or torque, period.  If it might need a valve job, then do that when it needs to be done (as in when a burnt valve becomes present).  In a small engine/heavier car situation, as you have, building TORQUE is more important than horsepower as it's torque that spins the wheels, not horsepower at 5000rpm.  LOTS of "easy starting, good driving cars" have been ruined by owners who wanted more horsepower and tried to get it from smaller engines in heavier cars, by observation.  If you want to move quickly, forget WOT from idle, but use more like 1/3 throttle first and then add as the speed quickly builds.  This also keeps more vacuum in the vacuum advance so there is more total timing in the motor, such additional vacuum would be lost using WOT.

 

DO get that timing chain replaced with a cast iron sproket timing set.  A Cloyes usually works best, even with a roller chain, too.  Doing that will be "cheap insurance" against future timing chain sproket failures.  Many cars, back then, were doing good to get 80K miles on the OEM timing nylon-covered cam sprokets.  Depending upon the miles the car now has, perhaps it's already been replaced?

 

In the mean time, do verify the tune-up specs on the car so that you have a good baseline to judge from in the future.  IF it now runs well, but clatters going up hills, do use 91+ pump octane fuel in it and see if that situation decreases.

 

Also, learn how to drive the car for best results.  How much throttle to use in starting, for example.  Plus how much throttle works best for acceleration and how hard to NOT push the power brakes to stop.  Learn what the car likes and adjust to it rather than the other way around.  Be respectful of it and the car will return the favor, usually.

 

Those were beautiful Buicks, especially the 2-dr hardtops as you have.  They were generally smoother and quieter than similar GM vehicles, by observation.  The Buick V-8s were more about lower-rpm/off-idle torque than top-end horsepower, which makes them a great car to drive and enjoy.

 

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

Edited September 13, 2021 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[65LeSabre400]

2 hours ago, NTX5467 said:

LOTS of "easy starting, good driving cars" have been ruined by owners who wanted more horsepower and tried to get it from smaller engines in heavier cars, by observation. 

Just what I needed to hear. Thanks for the advice

[EmTee]

9 hours ago, NTX5467 said:

If the a/c gas is low, the compressor will make a knocking-type of sound when the compressor is running

 

Your car should have a sight glass on the receiver/dryer.  On a hot day (above 70 F) with the A/C running you shouldn't see any bubbles in the refrigerant passing by the sight glass (should be all liquid).  The degree to which you see bubbles gives an indication of how low the refrigerant level is.  Is the car still using R-12 (i.e. Freon) or has it been converted to R-134a?  If its still running R-12 you can usually find someone selling old stock refill cans on Ebay.  If the system is still pressure tight and running R-12, you're probably better off keeping it that way as long as possible, since that's a big car and R-12 is more thermally efficient than R134a.

[JohnD1956]

Regarding the AC I see by your pictures that the system is converted to 134a and you still have the POA valve which is the metal arrangement at the firewall outside the evaporator.  Unless the POA valve was re-calibrated for the 134a gas, you may find the best the system will do is cool the air to roughly 55- 60*.  That's what my 69 GS does.  Just about adequate on a 80* day to cool the front seat area. Can you get a kitchen meat thermometer and use it in your center vent to see what temp you are getting with the AC operating?

 

 

[65LeSabre400]

6 minutes ago, JohnD1956 said:

Regarding the AC I see by your pictures that the system is converted to 134a and you still have the POA valve which is the metal arrangement at the firewall outside the evaporator.  Unless the POA valve was re-calibrated for the 134a gas, you may find the best the system will do is cool the air to roughly 55- 60*.  That's what my 69 GS does.  Just about adequate on a 80* day to cool the front seat area. Can you get a kitchen meat thermometer and use it in your center vent to see what temp you are getting with the AC operating?

 

 

I'll check temp when I get home next week. I noticed the AC clutch seizing then spinning continually when operating so I just leave off not wanting to mess things up

[EmTee]

Good catch John - I now see the R-134a adapter plug by the firewall.  I suggest picking up one of these: https://www.autozone.com/test-scan-and-specialty-tools/thermometer/p/surebilt-test-thermometer/66749_0_0

 

 

Or shoot the vent with your IR thermometer (everyone should REALLY have one of those). 

[JohnD1956]

A bit off topic but @EmTee, is there one of those IR thermometers that can be trusted.  When I was comparing my thermometer to Ed's we were getting different readings at the same spots on his radiator and engine parts. It looks like mine was off when I tested it against a pot of boiling water on the stove.  Not sure if it can be calibrated somehow. 

Also, that AutoZone tool you referenced looks just like the meat thermometer that can be picked up in most grocery stores. 

 

[old-tank]

2 hours ago, EmTee said:

 

  On a hot day (above 70 F) with the A/C running you shouldn't see any bubbles in the refrigerant passing by the sight glass (should be all liquid).  

 Only true if you have R-12.  If converted to R-134a and the original expansion valve/POA it will be overcharged if the liquid line is full.

1 hour ago, JohnD1956 said:

Regarding the AC I see by your pictures that the system is converted to 134a and you still have the POA valve which is the metal arrangement at the firewall outside the evaporator. 

 

 

R-134a used in systems made for R-12 will run at higher pressures and pull harder on the compressor

1 hour ago, 65LeSabre400 said:

I'll check temp when I get home next week. I noticed the AC clutch seizing then spinning continually when operating so I just leave off not wanting to mess things up

Get the belt real tight and try it.  If still no joy take it to a professional that will use the super-heat concept for R-134a.  On mine we never could get it stable because of the the high pressures that locked the compressor.  I had to replace the condenser with a parallel flow unit (along with new hoses).

I cut open the old condenser and found some balls of crud that apparently resisted all cleaning and partially blocked the flow at the bends.  I also converted mine to a cycling unit with expansion valve made for modern refrigerants (my original VIR unit will never work with R-134a...yours may be different).

[65LeSabre400]

3 hours ago, old-tank said:

 Only true if you have R-12.  If converted to R-134a and the original expansion valve/POA it will be overcharged if the liquid line is full.

R-134a used in systems made for R-12 will run at higher pressures and pull harder on the compressor

Get the belt real tight and try it.  If still no joy take it to a professional that will use the super-heat concept for R-134a.  On mine we never could get it stable because of the the high pressures that locked the compressor.  I had to replace the condenser with a parallel flow unit (along with new hoses).

I cut open the old condenser and found some balls of crud that apparently resisted all cleaning and partially blocked the flow at the bends.  I also converted mine to a cycling unit with expansion valve made for modern refrigerants (my original VIR unit will never work with R-134a...yours may be different).

Definitely will be tightening belt soon as I get time to lift the hood. What's a ballpark figure I can expect to fork out if I convert as you did?

[old-tank]

1 hour ago, 65LeSabre400 said:

What's a ballpark figure I can expect to fork out if I convert as you did?

$400-500 if you research and do the work yourself....triple that if farmed out.

$175 for hoses and fittings (I used the EZ clip system for smaller hoses and less interaction with people during Covid)

$150 for VIR eliminator kit (yours would need a POA or STV eliminator kit

$85 for parallel flow condenser (there will be no direct fit ones out there so you need to measure and measure and plan )

Nice project when I was under house arrest during Covid...

[ol' yeller]

On 9/12/2021 at 7:33 PM, 65LeSabre400 said:

What made you decide to do head work on your Skylark?  Will I be causing more harm if I wait till something starts messing up. Car drives pretty sweet as it is, but then again it's my first so no bench mark for comparison

I didn’t do head work to gain any power. My Skylark had about 120K miles on the engine so it was time to do the valves. As long as that was being done, I had the hardened seats installed. The lower end was still going strong at 140K miles when I sold the car. You will not cause any big harm to wait until you are having valve train or head gasket issues.

 

One thing I did to my Skylark that improved performance was to change out the rear gears. I went with a 355 gear ratio and that gave it good grunt without destroying gas mileage much. I also added limited slip at that time.

 

If your car is running well, I’d say enjoy it for what it is. I built my Skylark for me. It needed a lot when I bought it. The 300 is a great engine for longevity and reasonable gas mileage. I imagine it would be more taxed in a LeSabre than in the lighter Skylark but I was very pleased with all (5)) the 300V8 ‘65 Skylarks I have owned. 

[65LeSabre400]

Since I've been using higher grade fuel, the engine is quieter when climbing hills. I still haven't addressed AC issue as I have at least 6 months before I'll need it. I discovered water getting into my trunk, via back window lower trim, after washing it with a hose. Good thing it stays parked in garage. Looking to upgrade audio. Don't want to change the factory look, but would like new school bells and whistles tho. Any suggestions? Does anyone know if the 65 LeSabre had front speakers and if so, where?

[NTX5467]

For the audio, check www.auroradesigns.com for radio upgrades using the factory radio.  Usually about $500.00 as I recall?

 

In that model year, no "stereo multiplex" factory optioins, nor any stereo tape options, either.  Usually one front center speaker and rear speaker in the back package tray (possibly places for two 6x9s) or one speaker in the rear grille on the rear seat back.  AM/FM mono was available, with the "upgrade" being a rear speaker with "reverberation" (which delayed the signal to the rear speaker to give the impression of "echo"), for the impression of an empty concert hall.  With the correct adjustment, it sounded pretty decent, but with a different adjustment, things got garbled pretty quickly.

 

In '67 with the factory 8-track stereo or multiplex FM radios (at least on the Chevy Caprices), the front speakers were in the kick panels with two speakers in the rear deck, for a total of 4 speakers.  With the right front/rear mix, you could image the sound to the front windshield.  Which gave the feel of a front row seat in a concert hall.  Key word "hall" rather than "venue".  Nice l/r stereo separation, too.

 

The front speakers, I suspect, were 4x6s while the rear speakers would normally be 6x9, but could be 5x7.   The front kickpanel speakers had a metal mesh grille on them.

 

Just some recollections,

NTX5467

[Bill Stoneberg]

I put a Retrosound unit in with some good speakers. This was in my 1980 Cadillac and I am happy.  It looks like a factory unit but has Bluetooth and Sirius plus a place to plug in a thumb drive full of MP3s.  
https://www.retromanufacturing.com/?campaignid=11748651483&adgroupid=116560181900&network=g&device=c&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjryGuJzX8wIV73xvBB1I5QZBEAAYASAAEgLU4vD_BwE

 

[drhach]

I don't have any advice to offer. But I do have a complement. That is a beautiful car. Even with those modern wheels, it looks really good.