Sgt Art Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 The other A.M. I cranked it up and drove a short distance slowly to allow the engine to warm up. It went down below 10 degrees the previous night which is rare in these parts. I stopped at a convenience store to get coffee and talked with a friend. Noticed coolant leaking from around the area where the radiator cap is. Checked temp gauge (after market Sun-Pro) and it showed about 240 to 250 degrees. This car/engine normally sits at 195 to 200 (has a 195 thermostat). Took it right home, a short distance (couple miles at most) cut engine off steam going into overflow tank. Left car used other car to go to work. This Saturday, I bought a new t'stat and replaced the fan clutch as it's over 15 years old. Car ran cooler, but still went up to 220 230 range. Radiator is new and has not been a problem. Flushed system completely, check water pump, no leaks nice and tight no noises. Still runs hotter than normal. Noticed steam-like vapor from left exhaust pipe (I have a true dual exhaust system each independent of one another). There was water dripping from from left pipe as well. Right pipe did neither. I put my finger in each exhaust and left side was constantly wet while the right side was just sooty from exhaust and dry. Do I have a cracked cylinder head? I've taken the radiator, t'stat, fan clutch and water pump out of the equation. Should I tear the engine down for an inspection? Hoping I've overlooked something, but can't think of what. BTW, as I previously mentioned, it seldom gets anywhere near 10 degrees around here and I'm not certain if my coolent had enough antifreeze. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 It sure sounds like a cracked head or a bad head gasket. Let's hope that with the cold , you just had the metal shrink and blew a head gasket that was close to the way out anyway. I'd take the spark plugs out first and inspect them. If you have one with a trace of rust or condensation on it after running, that's the bad cylinder. If you have 2 adjacent ones, that's typically a bad head gasket. Fill the radiator, leave the cap off, and start the engine. Look for air bubbles that surge with accelleration. Then do a compression check. If you have 2 adjacent low readings, you have a blown head gasket, no biggie. If you have one and just one wet plug, typically that's a cracked head. Check your oil too, if it looks like a milkshake, don't run the engine, but do the compression test. That condition would indicate that have a cracked water jacket leaking into the oil return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Art Posted January 27, 2003 Author Share Posted January 27, 2003 Thanks for the trouble shooting help, I didn't think of checking the plugs etc. it realy helps to have someone who isn't "close" to it manke an evaluation. One question though. Assuming it's a cracked head or blown gasket, why does it make the engine run hotter? I understand as you lose coolent,that would happen. But, when it's slam full, shouldn't run at normal temp until enough coolent is lost that the temp starts to creep up? Does it have something to do with the system not being pressurized. Again, thanks for the advice, I will run those diagnostics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 To answer your question, it's the combustion gases heating the water. It takes very little exhausst gas at 800f or so to raise your water 30f. Hope that clarifies it. One more thought, once the engine is running, take off the oil fillcap and smell the blow-by. If it smells sweet, the block is typically cracked in one if the cylinders at a water jacket on the piston pin sides, typically the thinnest part of the casting. Let me add, be careful of hydrostatic lockup on your engine. That may happen if you have the engine at operating temperature and leave it parked overnight with the radiator cap on. That happens when you have water accumulated in the cylinder and on the compression stroke, has nowhere to go, bending a rod or worse. Make sure you remove all the plugs on that side of the engine before you do any compression test and spin it over to clean out any water first. Once you've identified the cylinder(s), then spray in something like lubriplate or a decent white aerosol door and hinge grease to keep water off the cylinder walls and the rings. Turn it over one time and have the piston at TDC of that cylinder if you can, close is good enough. You'll have less exposure to possible rust that way, if you can't get at it right away, and save yourself a lot more work. Grease like that will actually form a ring around the top of the piston after cycling it in the chamber, and prevent any water from getting past into the rings. I wouldn't use wd-40, it actually attracts water and might make it worse. After you are done with that, I'd drain all your coolant, and start the disassembly, or wait until you can. The sooner the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Art Posted January 27, 2003 Author Share Posted January 27, 2003 Ohhhh, now it makes sense. Thanks again for the advice, I'll take it. Taking with one of the tech's in our shop (I work for a Chev, Pont, Buick dealer in North Georgia) he recommended pressurizing the system and leaving it ahwile. Then pull the plugs, disable the ignition, and turn the engine over. He said if any water is leaking into the cylinder (based on what I've seen and told him he agrees with your thoughts - blown head gasket or cracked head) it (the coolent) will be blow out the spark plug hole. Makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Art Posted February 1, 2003 Author Share Posted February 1, 2003 Ran a compression test tonight, here's the results:Cylinder psi1 1403 1355 1457 1402 1404 1406 1336 second time1306 third time1358 140I started on the left side (no 1) and worked back to 7 and then went to the right side. The left side was suspect because it was the left pipe that I saw vapor and water dripping and was constantly wet. Cylinder no 3 was the second one I tested. I did 6 three times because by then the battery was a bit weak, I could hear the starter was not cranking as fast. But, 8 was last and gave a 140 on the first try. I went back and did No 3 after I finished and it went to 125 psi. The engine was cold, no oil squirted in the cylinders and throttle wide open. I've also pressurized the cooling system to 15 psi to see how long it will hold the pressure. One of our techs said to do this and then see if any coolent enters any of the cylinders. The oil on the dipstick looks clean. I did note when removing the plugs, No 8 plug wire boot was just sitting on the the plug, it wasn't snapped on it tight. No 8 and No 7 plugs are black sooty looking, the other grey and brown, I see no rust on the inner surfaces/electrodes. I'm going to get another temp gauge and sensor and put it in the manifold to see if both gauges agree. Maybe it's a bad gauge. I am suspect of a crack or blown gasket as this happened on the coldest day we've had around here. I think it went to 9 degrees that night and I honestly can't say if I had enough anti-freeze in the cooling system. It's all been replaced so I can't check the specific gravity of it. Any suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 Based upon your compression readings, you have a hairline crack that a compression test cold won't show. The only accurate compresion test for this is a warm one, because of the problem.Since your cylinder pressures all read within roughly 10% of each other, there's no obvious diagnosis. I suspect that your head or block cracked just enought to leak, but only when the metal has heated and therefore expanded. Simply a hairline stress fracture. I would suggest running it until it gets warm, since you don't have oil contamination, the crack is not that severe, and it won't do any serious damage at this point. It would indicate that your left head is the culprit, simply because of the moisture from the exhaust. I would say at this point, I would drive it again, and if it still is spitting water, after it's good and warm, doa system pressure check after running for about 30 minutes and them remove allthe plugs on the left bank. The plug with moisture should tell you the story. If not, then you need to take off the head have it pressure checked. It may be possible to have it repaired if you don't have a crack near the valve seats. I would probably just try to find a set of good flowing big-valve heads and replace both sides, and grind the valves based on the compression figures. It would need to be done soon anyway, and would just be good maintenance. While your head is off, look for a discolored piston that might be unusually clean compared to the others. That would confirm your diagnosis. Steam in the combustion cycle is a great cleaner, but there are better ways to accomplish that <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> You can only really do a pressure test of the cooling system while it's hot with that kind of crack. But just to be sure, start her up again and see if she still spits the water before you do anything else. Stranger things have happened. I've has 2 cars that were almost like Christine, I swear they repaired themselves <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Let me know what you find out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldsmaniac Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 On a cold day there will be plenty of water vapor coming out of the exhaust pipes especially when the eng. is first started and the pipes and mufflers are cold...water can even be seen running out of tailpipes....this is normal. One side may do this more than others...if its really cold the exhaust pipes may not warm up at all and the vapor may be seen for quite a while running. It could be something serious as some have indicated...then again it may not be... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Art Posted February 1, 2003 Author Share Posted February 1, 2003 M'wrench, Thanks for the advice. I'm going to follow it. I found a set of "C" castings and talked with a machinist friend who will go through them including hardened valve seats. I have "G" castings on there now, so it will b an upgrade. I appreciate your time and you can be certain I'll be posting on this again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Art Posted February 1, 2003 Author Share Posted February 1, 2003 Removed heads, see no evidence of craking in either block or head. Head gaskets were "glued" to head and block and self destroyed when I pulled the heads off. Had to scrape remainder of gasket material from block. I've ordered a set of "C" castings and will have hardened inserts added, so it will take awhile to put all back together again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 2, 2003 Share Posted February 2, 2003 Art, sounds like you are moving forward, and glad you found some really nice heads! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Just a couple of thoughts. In my last post, I'd recommended that you try running it again to operating temperature seeing if you still had the water out the exhaust, and then applying the pressure pump to the radiator for a couple of hours to check for leaks. On your latest message, I take it that you didn't. Did you notice any damp plugs or any unususally clean pistons? The pic that you attached shows a marked difference between the 2 cylinders illustrated. One is much cleaner than the other. I just want to make sure that you turned the engine over to examine all the cylinder bores also, after you removed the heads. A crack would typically show up as a brighter line in the cylinder, or a streak of discoloration, and it doesn't have to be very long. Before you install the other heads, I would take the suspect original one to a machine shop for an ultraviolet test, EG, Zyglo, or a Magnaflux to determine if that was the problem. It's better to determine the problem, than to have the wrong solution. Thermal expansion of a crack in alloyed ferrous metals is a very tricky thing, and I want to make sure, for your sake, that it's the heads and not the block. If the heads check out ok, you have your answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Art Posted February 2, 2003 Author Share Posted February 2, 2003 I was going to perform the tests you mentioned, but decided not to as I got the replacement heads. I plan to bring both sets to the machine shop and let him check them out. In addition, he may want to strip springs etc from the old heads for the new if they have better parts. I didn't check the "hidden" parts of the cylinders as you noted. I will today. I cleaned the deck surfaces looking for cracks between the cylinders and around the bolt holes everything looked good. I took close up shots of them as well. Thanks for the tip about the cylinder walls, I didn't think of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Art Posted February 4, 2003 Author Share Posted February 4, 2003 Mwrench, What type head gaskets would you recommend? I've seen them priced from about $30 to $90. Would you use Copper Coat or other product? TIA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 Clint Eastwood had a great quote in the movie, 'Fistful of Dollars' I believe, and states succintly, "A man's gotta know his limitations" <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> As most of the enigines in my experience have been dissimilar metal european ones, the ideal properties are totally different. In this case, of iron-to-iron, I would just find the thinnest steel ones that you can find, then give it an even coating of Fel-Pro copper gasket paint to inhibit corrosion and increase sealing ability around water ports. After reading a lot of quality posts in the forum, I've recalled that the original ones are .014, and are steel, and that aftermarket ones can go as thick as .042. Using anything thicker than factory or equivalent could compromise performance and possibly valve lift. For a more specific and fatually correct answer, I respectfully defer this one to more knowledgable people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Art Posted February 4, 2003 Author Share Posted February 4, 2003 said that to Hal Holbrook the crooked cop/boss who was on his case all the time. Thanks for the info, it makes sense to me. New heads are on their way, so maybe I'll be able to button this thing up pretty soon and we shall see what we shall see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 There is a small mark in the top of the block on the one cylinder at the 7 O'clock position that may be to deep for the head gasket to take up.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 Is it a nick on the edge of the cylinder? Or if not, what would be the distance from the edge to it approximately? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Art Posted February 6, 2003 Author Share Posted February 6, 2003 Albert, I looked at the nick you pointed out on the No.3 cylinder (this one gave me the lowest compression reading) and ran my finger nail over it. I can feel the nick in the metal as well as see it. It's hard to say how deep it is and if it is causing me to lose compression. It appears the ring of the gasket covers it, but whether or not it's properly supported, I can't say. The gaskets shredded when I removed it and I couldn't see any burn marks. Perhaps that area of the head gasket just finally gave out? I've not had the old heads to the machine shop yet because the new ones haven't arrived. Once all that's here, I'll have the machinst go over them. I'd feel much better knowing what caused my problems before I put this engine back together again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 Still take a look at the old gasket at that point, the steel ring of the gasket should show a mark of sorts at that point, looks almost like the PO may have had the head off too an damaged the top of the block slightly scraping it as it looks like its been there a while. Maybe show that pic to the machinest and see what he thinks.. Can you feel it with your fingernail? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Art Posted February 6, 2003 Author Share Posted February 6, 2003 I can feel a little with my nail as I run it over the nick, not much, but it's there. The steel ring of the gasket appears to have sunk into it when it was torqued in place. The amount pulled out now is somewhat greater than the nick it was in due to my having to really pull the gaskets off. They were stuck like glue. Looks like the steel ring and the nick area are the same length. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 After seeing the pic, and your description of the indentation/ I'llbet that the backside of the head has a matching shape. Sounds like somebody lost their grip when they were taking a head off years ago. If there's no flame erosion around the area, I wouldn't worry about it. Something that small isn't a big deal, and the head gasket will seal it like the last one did. I think your compression variance wasn't caused by that, because it would have shown up long before now. Just use the Fel-pro Perma-torque head gasket and you're fine. From what you described, the head gasket on there wasn't the original one anyway, as I've learned in here that they are thin steel. Just make sure the machinist knows the difference between GM and Oldsmobile valve seats, or he'll ruin your heads installing incorrect ones. If the guides are shot, install phosphor bronze ones with real valve stem seals. You'll be a happy camper down the road. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Art Posted March 1, 2003 Author Share Posted March 1, 2003 Got my "new" heads back from the machine shop today. He went through them adding harded valve seats, checking spring height and new bronze valve guides. I asked to check out the old ones and he couldn't find any cracks, but he showed me a spot between the cylinders where he felt like the gasket might have blown. Tomorrow I start reassembly. Couple questions. I'm using Fel-Pro gaskets that indicate no sealers (I would normally copper coat them). Machinist says no in this case. I was thinking about adding a sealant to the cooling system. Good idea or bad? If good, what type would you recommend? Torque chart I have shows BB head bolts to be torqued 80 lbft, correct? Any other tips that might help out? Thanks, Art Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Hello Art, well just as general principles, chase the threads in yoru block with a bottoming tap before you put it together. If the head bolts are cheap, I'd get new ones of those too. As far as a system sealer goes, I would just put it all together and drive it first, I don't think you have a problem now. Most of them just clog heater cores and calcified parts of the radiator. One other question, have you looked into your radiator lately? since you are doing al this, I'd take it and have it boiled out just as a matter of procedure. With the hotter heads, you may be running a litle warmer anyway. Concerning the head gasket, the coatings on the new ones would obviate the need to any additional treatments unless you are using the steel shim type. That's when I'd use the copper spray. I would just put it together and put a little anti-seize on the exhaust manifold bolts, and oil on the manifold and head bolts. I think I read somewhere that all Olds torques are based on lubricated fittings. Since you are in there, how do the cam and the lifters look? May as well have a peek since you are there! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Hope that helps, and enjoy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Art Posted March 9, 2003 Author Share Posted March 9, 2003 Well, it's back together and running. The new (refurbed) "C" heads are on and it I test drove it a bit today. I added Cyberdyne digital temp and oil press gauges along with my analog type just to be sure. First off, the engine started up almost instantly. I cleaned the plugs and regapped them to .065. My coolant mix was 2 gallons of antifreeze and almost 2 gallons of water. I siphoned all of the old coolant out of the engine block before replacing the heads. I also drained the oil and found no indication of water in it. The engine ran a good bit smoother than with the old heads. I used a 195 degree t'stat, I don't know the value of the old one. At idle, the temp eventually rose to 208 degrees F. While driving, at speeds up to 65 MPH, up and down hills, the temp went anywhere from 198 to 209. When slowing down and stopping it went to 213. Once it was shut down, the temp rose to about 230 and then cooled. There was no puke tank action. I placed both temp sensors in the front of the intake manifold next to the left water outlet from the head (the intake is an Edelbrock Performer). I found both gauges to be very close to each other in accuracy. My question is, are these acceptable temp ranges? Should I go to a colder t'stat? BTW, I replaced the radiator as I found Advance Auto Parts could sell me a new one for less than what it costs to recore and old one. Total price, was $84.00. It's has three water passages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 Great job Art! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> I'd probably go with a 180 for summer, but it sounds perfect to me! and as far as the heating when it stops, all engines do that, so no big deal at all. You have a lot more life left in her now, and some very sweet heads to boot. Congratulations on a fine job! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Art Posted March 9, 2003 Author Share Posted March 9, 2003 Thanks for the help and advice. However, I left out one item I will now share with the rest for future knowledge. You did indicate to chase the threads with a tap for proper torque values and I knew to do that. I chased the head bolt threads in the block and also wrapped paper shop towel bits around a skinny phillips head screw driver to remove and soak up any oil and gunk in the head bolt holes - kind of like running a patch down a rifle bore. Those threads are blind holes that could have gobs of snot down there and cause problems when torquing the head bolts. The pieces of towel came out pretty nasty. I was satisfied they were clean and the threads sharpe without burrs. All head bolts were whizzed on a fine wire wheel and then a light coating of oil applied to the threads and torqued in three stages, 45lbft, 65lbft and 82.5lbft (everything I read indicates the torque should be 80 to 85lbft). I triple checked every bolt (all nine of the them) just kidding I know there's ten and I did check them all three times. Then I bolted up the exhaust manifolds to the heads and all went well. I used Fel Pro head and exhaust manifold gaskets. After that, I laid in the push rods (which when removed, were placed in holes in a cardboard box in the same order as they had been in the engine). Each push rod went back to it's original lifter and rocker arm. I don't know how important that is, but I've always been told to do that. Next came bolting down the rocker arms. I was on the last one, cylinder # 8, when a wrung the head off one of the bolts. I stood there in absolute disgust and amazement. These are grade 8 bolts and stuff like this can't be happening. After I pulled that rocker arm assbly off (two rockers per) I saw less then a quarter inch of bolt stud sticking up. I tried to vise grip it out, but no luck. Bottom line, that head came off, and went back to the machine shop! After I had the head off, I ran a tap down each one of those rocker arm bolt holes. Everyone had crude (carbon rust) in them. I also tapped the intake and exhaust manifold holes, pretty much the same thing. Although the machine shop cleaned and put hard inserts in the valve seats and bronze guides, he didn't run a tap in the threaded holes. That's my job, I guess. Either way, the moral is you should still check them out. BTW, I used new bolts on the exhaust manifold, they're not that much in cost and will make it easier to remove if I ever have to. In addition, I found starting a bolt much easier when the threads are clean and sharp. I replaced the head gasket just to be safe on the removed head, why take a chance. Sooo, the lesson was learned and I should have known better, but got in a hurry and paid for it. Something about "a stitch in time..". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 11, 2003 Share Posted March 11, 2003 Sgt Art , your motor will run cooler with an increase in timming , i run 32 int. and 38 total degrees but you need a good battery and starter . Be sure you have a spring in the lower rad. hose if not it will collapes and run hot...Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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