Vacuum Tank Help - 1925 Dodge Brothers Woody

[Porsche 68]

Finally been getting back to work on my 1925 Dodge Brothers Woody . The float is cracked all around been searching for the correct float but they are all different. Can’t tell what type of tank it is Thought it was a Stewart but float is different Any thoughts have a good one  would like to sell ?

[Rusty_OToole]

My thought was to make a new float out of cork, or that black plastic they use for carburetor floats, or even a small tin can. What is the old one made of? Could you solder the crack? If it was mine I would try drilling a fine hole at the end of the crack to stop it spreading and then solder it. But if the metal is fatigued and brittle you might have no choice but to find or make a new one.

[JFranklin]

You should be able to solder it successfully. Carefully flow the joint with solder using even heat and wipe off excess.  Drill a small hole or unseal one there first in the flat part and seal it up after you are satisfied with your work, it gives a vent while heating. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by JFranklin (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

I know a fair amount about vacuum tanks? But I am no expert. Your pictures don't show the whole thing, but I think I know what it is. Not certain, however, I always thought that style was later, among the last vacuum tanks used around 1929 to 1931. I do know they were used on some Chrysler products including Plymouths around those years. 

Materials technology had advanced enough by 1929 that the mechanical fuel pump had become more practical and nearly as reliable. It took manufacturers a couple years to alter block castings and incorporate the new mechanical pump designs. So some older models continued to have the vacuum tanks for just a couple more years.

I do have one of that style, been on a shelf for over forty years now. I got it along with a couple of the more common earlier styles a long time ago. Frankly, I never could figure out how the dang thing worked! I kept it as a possible spare, but never needed it. And the more I learned, the more I became convinced it was a later item.

All that said, I would recommend making sure what style your Dodge was supposed to have? No point trying to fix this one if it isn't right for your car. There was a discussion a year or two ago where someone was trying to fix one like that for a Plymouth of about 1930, and a good friend of about fifty years ago had a couple 1925 Dodges. As I recall, they all had the earlier style.

 

 

Regardless what style you need? There is a regular on this forum that sells tanks parts and rebuild kits. I think it is 'old car fan' and a quick google search led me to his profile page;

 

https://forums.aaca.org/profile/98041-old-car-fan/

 

You may want to contact him. I am sure he must know more about what you need than I do.

[old car fan]

Wayne is  correct. Later style Stewart Warner. I do not think dodge ever used them ,they  went to Kingston in ,about 28.

[Mark Shaw]

Why not just coat it with gas tank sealer like Red Kote?

[Porsche 68]

To all that replied thank you The float is cracked all around like it was sucked in Was thinking about soldering it but would it not be too heavy ? Or dipping it in a tank sealer I would really like to find a replacement 

[old car fan]

Wrong  one,why worry 

[JFranklin]

3 hours ago, Porsche 68 said:

Was thinking about soldering it but would it not be too heavy ?  

You are only putting enough solder to seal it. Wipe off the joint and don't leave a bead, it shouldn't be too heavy. Try it, what do you have to lose?

[old car fan]

Dodge never  used  them. Fix what you  may,I may have some good floats,but why, it's not correct.Here is a 1925 tank.

Edited August 15, 2021 by old car fan (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

If I understand how those things work the weight is not critical as long as it is light enough to float in gasoline.

[wayne sheldon]

The weight would matter, in that it would affect the fuel level at which the vacuum would switch on or off. Critical? No, Rusty is right. A half inch more or less in a vacuum tank won't matter that much.

 

The big problem with repairing that float is that it cracked for a reason. The very thin brass (probably?) work hardens as it is stamped, pressed or spun into shapes. When  the seams get soldered, the materials get hot, unevenly. Brass (and aluminum, also even sheet steel to a lesser extent) should be annealed after the part is made to relieve the stresses of work hardening in order to prevent (or at least reduce the tendency for) future cracking. In the hurry to manufacture, all too often, proper adequate annealing is often overlooked. Soldering a part such as a fuel float will heat the shaped brass unevenly. Getting very hot very near the soldered joint, but not nearly hot enough even an inch or two away from the soldered joint.. This will result in uneven hardening of the brass, which over decades, will tend to crack due to the uneven stresses.

To repair a float such as this, it should be unsoldered and taken apart. The individual pieces should be annealed, heated up to about 500 degrees Fahrenheit, then cooled slowly. Any reshaping should be done as soon as the pieces have cooled enough to be handled. Pieces that have cracked should be carefully reshaped so that the crack naturally tries to stay together and in shape. THEN the cracks can be soldered, and the parts reassembled and soldered back together.

After that, the entire piece should be again annealed as a unit. Check with your solder's reference guide and reanneal at a temperature safely below the solders melting point. Stay at least 75 to 100 degrees F below the solder's melting point. Again, allow to cool somewhat slowly.

With a bit of luck, hopefully you can have a float that will last for years. On the other hand, I have seen a few very good efforts result in new cracks within a couple months.

 

Floats can be tested for leaks by letting them be really cool, then place them in a pot of HOT water on the stove. The water doesn't need to be boiling. Anything over about 160 degrees F will work. The float MUST be held completely under water! The heat will expand the air inside the float, and even a tiny leak will blow bubbles. 

Float shapes and designs vary a lot with varying purposes. It is possible to pop open floats, and even destroy them due to the expanding air pressures inside. Lower temperatures may be prudent for some floats with thinner brass material or larger internal areas.

[wmsue]

That vacuum tank looks like a Model 319. It was standard on a 1928 Willys and a few other models.

I have the exact same 4 bolt setup and float. I don't know what was std. on your Dodge, but if you wanted a replacement float (I think yours can be soldered) post an ad on the Willys Overland site.

www.wokr.org

My Dykes manual has a detailed description on this model.

The float setting on this vacuum tank is a bit tricky. Be sure you wind the float around both needle valve posts to ensure it can rise and fall. PM me if you'd like a copy of Dykes Info.

 

Good Luck,

 

Bill

[Porsche 68]

WSUME That was very insightful now I know for sure that it is not the original tank ! The float is split all the way around going to try to solder it this week as I am rebuilding the roof on it now Thank you very much   John

[Porsche 68]

Thank you Jack Bennett for clearing that up I was thinking the same thing being concerned about it he weight of the float after being soldered . When I first started the car the tank seemed to work then it started to run rich that’s when I figured out why the car was parked 31 years ago been running it off a gravity tank for awhile now I want to fix it the right way Thanks for your reply. John

[old car fan]

That  tank never  came  on a dodge  brothers 4

[MikeC5]

It might not be that expensive to source a good used (correct) Stewart vacuum tank.  Check with Myers Early Dodge or Romar.  

[old car fan]

Jack,Evidently, he is bound to repair a wrong one.

[old car fan]

Jack,you're picture  shows a  correct tank.No argument here,we did a shop talk  at Hershey  a few years  ago,at the Db tent,about  said  tanks.love to help  folks out,but I'm out of this one,

Edited August 15, 2021 by old car fan (see edit history)

[Porsche 68]

Ok Old Car Fan i get it wrong tank no I know better then to try and solder the float I asked for help you keep saying wrong tank sorry I didn’t know I am a retired Porsche mechanic I figured I’d try something a little simpler to work on i am learning

[nearchoclatetown]

Your title says help and 1925 Dodge Brothers. Old Car Fan has given you help twice. Look in your Book of Information it will show exactly the vacuum tank he said you should have. Contact Romar or Myers Early DB parts for the right one. 

[old car fan]

Not trying  to  be a butt,I have to ask, why repair something that is not right.

[Porsche 68]

I realize now the car has the wrong tank it’s larger it also has a larger fan on it too The car originally came from a gold mine in Colorado maybe it was upgraded some time it also has 21 inch wheels I was told it was a rare option I don’t know I am still learning about the car 

[Porsche 68]

Just seeking some input that’s all I really don’t want to put an electric fuel pump on it I am trying to keep it original that’s all. John

[old car fan]

Awesome, love the truck,do what have to do,your truck.anything is better  than electric. I would suggest joining  the dodge club, very active. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by old car fan (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

I agree it would be better to put on a new vacuum tank of the correct type, or at least a new float, if such is available.

[Hans1]

I have soldered several floats like this, no real problem

 

However the "inner tank cylinder" is improtant,  I do not see a flapper valve at the bottom of it in the picture.

 

The outer tank cylinder is the gasoline resevour.

 

The inner tank cylinder feeds gasoling to the outer tank.

 

The float operates the sources of vacuum and atmospheric sources to provide the gasoline to the inner tank.

 

The check valve at the bottom provides the closure to allow the vacuum to  permit withdrawl from gas tank.

 

 If there is enough gas in the outer tank, this helps seal the lower check valve, if tank is empty, then the lower check valve must seal to allow vacuum to withdraw gas from remote gas tank.

 

Soldering the cracks by first using fine sand paper  then a soldering gun,with a simple wiping motion  and using lots of rosin solder paste has provided good results for me.

 

Best wishes, It should work until you can find the tank others think is correct for your vehicle

[stakeside]

I have that tank on my 29 DB truck. It had the same problem maybe worst. I found this different style on e-bay and got a rebuild kit. Currently on my truck and runs great.

Recommend you not use an electric pump on such an unique Dodge Bros.

 

NOTE THE TOP OF TANK.

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by stakeside
E (see edit history)

[stakeside]

Sorry meant I had this tank on my 29 DB truck as original equipment.

 

[old car fan]

Stakeside,missing screws.looks great. 

[Porsche 68]

Jack Thank you for your kind words I am a Dodge truck guy always had them was originally looking for a 30s to mid 50s Dodge I found this one about 10 years ago but it was not for sale  (not sunk far enough into the ground I guess) he passed and I got it . Literally up the road from my house Not into Mustangs or the like I was a Porsche Mercedes Benz mechanic but health issues and the technical crap and the type of people that own them made me retire from a them My friend Rich is 85 years he showed me the simplicity of the old cars I started working on his cars years ago much more relaxed 

[stakeside]

There’s ad for I believe your woody.

 

[old car fan]

Picture,from the angle, looks  longer,regardless, great vehicle. 

[Porsche 68]

Stake side that’s cool ! Found a bunch of other pictures on the Cantrell pages on google the roof is was rotted on my truck so I took it off looks good as a truck !  I kept all the parts I removed for later reference 

[Porsche 68]

[nearchoclatetown]

Porsche 68, if you are interested there is a very accurate blueprint of the roof section of a screenside DB in the club literature kept at the AACA library. It may help you recreate your roof. Cantrell is the most common wood station wagon used on a DB. 

[Porsche 68]

Thanks I very carefully took the roof off as one piece it’s  sitting in a dry trailer for future reference Think I am going to keep it as a truck for awhile.I do plan on using and driving it every day 

 

[old car fan]

Love it,cool.

[platt-deutsch]

Would squirting some of that expanding foam in the original shell work?

[Tonz]

My 1926 Chrysler 50 (4 cyl) which is my first antique car came with a electric fuel pump which looks like a very old conversion.

Strangely, years before I even owned an old car I acquired the identical vacuum tank as yours from a yard sale. I didn't know what it was, but hung onto it.

Recently I got a bulk load of 26 Chrysler bits (two ute loads) and in it was the identical vacuum pump. So now I have two of.

One has a split float as yours. This might have to do with petrol affecting thin copper/brass.

I would like to use the vacuum tank rather than electric, as I like the authenticity, and feel it's more reliable and less of a fire hazard, plus the Chrysler takes its vacuum off the oil pump.