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1927 Buick Master to see the road, again


jrj2

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I don't have too many hours into this one so far. I've done new white wall tires, it now has a spare which was missing, drained & flushed the gas tank, fuel lines, cleaned and renewed the fuel bowl, rebuilt the carburetor, new battery and it started today. Exciting day !    Once the car warms up, it simply starves out of gas. All is working just as I expect it to while watching it warm up (it is even running surprising well with very few adjustments), but then it starves out. It makes me think of dealing with vapor locks in my earlier years. I am relatively new to these updraft carburetors and want to know if my suspicions can be true ? And if this is so, can someone point me in a proper direction to remedy this issue ?

DSCN5275.JPG

Edited by jrj2 (see edit history)
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The vacuum is keeping up just as it should. The glass fuel bowl stays completely full at all times with not even any air bubbles to indicate leaks in the system. The owner tells me that the car would do the same thing when he originally got it quite a few years ago.

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There is an electric fuel pump in addition to the vacuum tank. From what I have learned about the progression of these cars, fuel pumps (as such) did not come into being on these Buicks until 1930. Electric fuel pumps did not come about until the 70's. There is a push button on the dash to prime the vacuum tank for 6 seconds before starting. Consequently, I am also questioning if this "ad-in" could be the culprit do to the heat once the vehicle sufficiently warms up ?   I think this will be my next angle of attack. Does this theory make sense to some of you that have dealt with these incredible vehicles for so long ?

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When the car stalls what happens when you hit the pump button? does it start right up again? Is it possible you are just filing the vacuum tank then driving until it runs out.  They go quite a ways on a v-tank full. 

Edited by Oldtech (see edit history)
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No. The electric pump only fills/primes the vacuum canister rather than waiting for the vacuum to fill the canister. The vacuum pump seems to keep up just fine until the vehicle warms up to act like it is starving out of gas (The fuel bowl is still full and thus my vapor lock suspicions). If the electric pump switch is turned on after the canister is full, it simply forces the gas out of the breather tube on top of the canister. The car will start just fine, again, after it cools down a bit. I really don't see why the electric pump would have been added in except for not wanting to wait for the engine vacuum to fill the canister.

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The gas tank vent had not occurred to me !  How to make me feel dumb. I am humbled by not checking such a thing from the get-go. Such a simple thing to overlook after all these years of playing with cars. I am on my way over to play with the thing this afternoon and I will let you know.

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I would be surprised if it turns out to be a vapor lock problem.  I would pull the coil wire out of the distributor cap have a helper crank the engine over in the dark  and jump the end of  the coil wire  to the block looking for a nice  1/4 , 3/8 blue spark. If you have a weak white spark I would look into the ignition system.  I would then place the rear of the car on stands so the wheels are off the ground and let the car run until the engine starts to die.  At this time I would spray starting fluid into the carb to see if it stays running. Also important is to hook up a vacuum gauge to your intake manifold and see how close you are to 17"   If your way off follow the repair fix.  Note  these test will cost you no money and you are bound to learn more about your problem. 

Edited by DFeeney (see edit history)
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Thank-you so very much for the inputs. I am enjoying working on these old Buicks way lots. I don't easily give up and most always eventually win (at least if you are a car). The learning curve along the way is always an extra bonus.

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I suggest you eliminate the fuel pump as a potential source of the problem.  Disconnect and plug the fuel pump connection and manually fill the vacuum tank for a test run after the engine is up to temperature.  If it empties the vacuum tank & runs out of gas, your problem is in the vacuum system. 

 

Note: The fuel pump could also be causing a restriction in the fuel line that the vacuum tank cannot overcome..

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Unfortunately, the air vent for the gas tank was not the culprit. One more thing ruled out. I have yet to get the new fittings to bypass the electric fuel pump. Today is "chores day", so I will do parts stuff amongst the rest of the chores.

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Very nice collection, Mark !   Would you post a picture of your truck for us ?      I bypassed (disconnected) the electric fuel pump and it did run a bit longer but still inconsistently. I am pretty confident that this all revolves around a proper fuel issue. New plug wires should be here the first part of the week, anyway, since the wires are well aged. I think next up will be searching for intake leaks through possible worn castings as they heat up. I will overcome all of this and just sad that this man has missed out on most of the summer cruising time.

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Vacuum gauge tells you so much info. Do that for sure.

What model tank are you using?

Have you checked the internals of the vacuum tank and that there are no pinhole leaks in the inner tank. New gaskets? Don't use silicone sealer.

It sure sound like a vacuum tank problem to me.

 

Good Luck

 

Bill

Edited by wmsue (see edit history)
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  • 3 weeks later...

Good morning,     This '27 Buick is up & running !     We took it out for a ride a couple of days ago. The owner was pretty happy about it. A serious persistence and one thing at a time wins the war (and a fair amount of input from people in this forum). It would be no fun if the problems were only singular instead of multiple (where's the challenge in that?). Now I know what one of these things is supposed to sound like. I am told it has been a long time since this thing ran. His wife never has gotten to go for a ride in this one.

  I got the replacement exhaust manifold back from having the ports surfaced, yesterday, so with any luck I will have the '26 up and running again this weekend.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I need a bit more input. I am pretty happy with having overcome all of the issues that were ailing this "27, but the owner is bound & determined that the electric fuel pump has to be there. I had refused to hook it back up due to once the carburetor was full the fuel would be forced out the vent tube on the vacuum cannister directly onto the exhaust pipe. He is still determined that the electric pump has to be there. My question is how much fuel pressure does an updraft carburetor like this require ?  I would like to run the fuel from the electric pump (and regulator) through the vacuum cannister to maintain the appearance of stock.

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8 hours ago, jrj2 said:

I need a bit more input. I am pretty happy with having overcome all of the issues that were ailing this "27, but the owner is bound & determined that the electric fuel pump has to be there. I had refused to hook it back up due to once the carburetor was full the fuel would be forced out the vent tube on the vacuum cannister directly onto the exhaust pipe. He is still determined that the electric pump has to be there. My question is how much fuel pressure does an updraft carburetor like this require ?  I would like to run the fuel from the electric pump (and regulator) through the vacuum cannister to maintain the appearance of stock.

 

Not entirely sure why you would insist on it if it's otherwise working... the best way would be using it for priming the vacuum tank and then shutting it off when it's not required 

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The vacuum tank should never need priming provided the fuel valve is kept shut when that car is not used.  There will always be enough fuel in the outer tank to  start the car (unless it has been left so long that the fuel has evaporated out of the tiny vent line).  As soon as the car starts vacuum will keep it topped up.  I have been driving cars with vacuum tanks since the around 1970.  It is one of the most trouble free parts of the cars.  An electric pump if left on for too long  can over fill the vacuum tank risking the vacuum line sucking fuel back into the inlet manifiold.   Its a bad idea.

The only reason for fitting an electric fuel pump to a car with a vacuum tank, IMO, is to help with vapor lock but it needs to bypass the vacuum tank and feed directly to the carburetor preferably with a return line to the main fuel  tank  . 

 

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  • 1 month later...

Good morning again,    This week I am working on rebuilding one  of the water pumps. I am having troubles getting the end off of the shaft that connects to the generator. It is seriously seized and I am being careful not to destroy any of the parts (95 year old parts are a challenge to find without destroying them myself). I am using Power Blaster in attempt to dissolve some of the corrosion, so far, but I don't particularly like using heat to break loose parts due to weakening them. I also can't get the bushing at the back side cover to let go, so far. Do any of you have any cool tricks, that I don't know about, in your arsenals to overcome such challenges ?

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First, did you drive the pin out, and second do you have a press. .  There is a pin through the drive hub that holds it on. Then a press is gentler than a hammer to get it off

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So its the coupler that is stuck ?  Photos are always helpful for this sort of troubleshooting.   Heat + shop press should do it.  Coupler will not suffer any damage if it has to be heated up. 

Make sure it has adequate support behind it when using the press.   Bob's sells new rebuild kits and parts for this pump. https://bobsautomobilia.com/shop/cooling-system/water-pump-rebuild-kit-1926-35-all-except-34-35-s-40-31-35-s-50-wpk-260/

water pump 2.jpg

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I got the coupler off yesterday afternoon. Patience, three days of Power Blaster and continuing tapping (and a 3 jaw puller) and it came off with no damage. With a bit of gentle persuasion, I also got the impeller shaft out with no damage .Yes !!   I have yet to succeed at getting the rear bushing out of the cover plate (I have not resorted to drilling holes in the bushing, yet). A bit of clean-up and I can get on with installing the complete rebuild kit from Bob's Automobilia (nice kit; serious quality stuff; well worth the $'s).

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  • 1 month later...

Good morning to all,      I am still enjoying playing with these old vintage Buicks. I am even enjoying the challenges of searching, finding, or fabricating the needed parts for a 95 year old car. I recently drained the motor oil to work at eliminating the oil leaks. Unfortunately, I made a terrible mess since my drain pan only holds some eight quarts of oil and there was probably nine quarts came out of the motor (that may be a good explanation for some of the leakage). Anyway, I see where these motors in the Masters are supposed to hold 6 quarts of oil. My question is about the dipstick that is supposed to be in these motors. Does anyone, out there, have a picture of a dipstick that they could post for me to see and how long is that dipstick supposed to be ?   Thanks again. I so respect all of the cumulative Knowledge that is here. 

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2 hours ago, jrj2 said:

Good morning to all,      I am still enjoying playing with these old vintage Buicks. I am even enjoying the challenges of searching, finding, or fabricating the needed parts for a 95 year old car. I recently drained the motor oil to work at eliminating the oil leaks. Unfortunately, I made a terrible mess since my drain pan only holds some eight quarts of oil and there was probably nine quarts came out of the motor (that may be a good explanation for some of the leakage). Anyway, I see where these motors in the Masters are supposed to hold 6 quarts of oil. My question is about the dipstick that is supposed to be in these motors. Does anyone, out there, have a picture of a dipstick that they could post for me to see and how long is that dipstick supposed to be ?   Thanks again. I so respect all of the cumulative Knowledge that is here. 

I would put the known required quantity of oil in the empty sump then measure how long the dipstick should be with a piece of small cable or the likes.

Then fab up a dipstick or get one that is to long and modify it.

If there is an oil filter take that into consideration.

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According to 1916-1932 Master Parts list book, the dipstick is same for 1926 Master through 1930 Series 50 & 60.  Unfortunately the dimensions are omitted.

Zooming in on an online photo of a 1929 engine confirms the dipstick does have a finger pull loop, so the  drawing is probably correct for 1926 on but not for 1925 and earlier.   

You might be able to find a dipstick from something newer that fits and mark the Full after filling up with the correct volume of oil. 

Kevin 

 

oil dip stick.jpg

1929.jpg

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If you have not done it yet, I would pull the oil pan off. I think you will find a lot of SLUDGE in it.  Also you can clean the oil  pump pick up screen. For the price of a oil pan gasket you would know the pan is clean. If your Buick has connection rod oil slingers. you be able to see them.  Sometimes they break off.

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jrj2 needs a little more help.  I do not have a Master.  He needs 4 dimensions A, B, C and D.  Oddly this is the only one with no dimensions.  Also it would be nice to know the width and thickness of the flat metal used to make the dip stick.    

jrj2, you should also make future posting on the Buick Pre War forum.    Hugh

1255724689_DipStick.JPG.78ce00c748f9abde070800ad6778d9c9.JPG

Edited by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)
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From the diagram posted, I have identified the dipstick in this motor (which does match as an original style) as being from a 1926 Standard. When I inserted a piece of stock into the dipstick tube, with six quarts of oil in the motor, the level measured 11 5/8" from the top of the tube. Any inputs on the fabrication of my new dipstick would be very appreciated. I will get a picture of this "Standard" stick, with dimensions, to post here.

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