Smartin Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 At least it's not a later model with the distributor in the front. The cooling fan gets a little close to your knuckles when you're messing with the allen wrench! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 3 hours ago, usnavystgc said: Thermal runaway It is the radiator. Get it rodded or replace the core. 24 minutes ago, Smartin said: At least it's not a later model with the distributor in the front. The cooling fan gets a little close to your knuckles when you're messing with the allen wrench! The 56 distributor is set by a feeler gauge. 2 hours ago, Smartin said: Definitely get the block flushed. It sounds like that’s the last thing in the cooling system you haven’t checked off. Make sure the vacuum advance is working. It provides several additional degrees of advance at cruise speed. If the engine is running excessively lean, it will run hotter too. Be sure you don’t have any big vacuum leaks. While not a bad idea if rebuilding the engine, sediment in the lower block is seldom an issue. Look at the circulation of coolant: lower radiator>water pump>lower block>rear of cylinder head>across head (where heat is generated)>back to thermostat and top of radiator. Some race engines have the lower block filled with cement for stability with no effect on cooling. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, usnavystgc said: Posting error Edited January 13, 2022 by old-tank (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, usnavystgc said: posting error Edited January 13, 2022 by old-tank (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usnavystgc Posted January 13, 2022 Author Share Posted January 13, 2022 Ok, I get the point Willie. The 3 row cores for these rads are on backorder with no projection as to when they will be available. I eventually want to get this rad recored but, I don't want to get the standard 2 row (which is available). What are your thoughts on this rad for a temporary measure? https://www.ebay.com/itm/294500148528?fits=Year%3A1956|Make%3ABuick&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item449193a530:g:t8oAAOSw3D1hec3b&amdata=enc%3AAQAGAAACoPYe5NmHp%2B2JMhMi7yxGiTJkPrKr5t53CooMSQt2orsS%2Fwocn770hnih0B3mVHNZ5Hre8iMNU9CCRzVyBteUtIJgPeD0%2FUVNiJecr9lm2hk5ie2DFtYB6QzpTMZBcdAJ3%2F%2FC9zsoU9FAsajDg26vxn2DagtCqFRA65CWZLxhR8OsNLLvEep7BSQklKegkfeqheJu05rs35Kcyr2RmTKkGyYWDY9qvIn6Y8EMktzBmI%2B9sRocKu0J47sskXvxjc46rK7UXBiuivuzlQTQLUzT8zDDISWdXmJhYAMraz%2B0HnCG3sLA%2FiKnQvXVIG8B3PufwRWFAaaxYu2mYpWYwSWxlPkQhoPw6bYG8Db%2FphjXRw9og7zQG7DmSNI5jBkaD2jZsnm3XgcJ0%2BDpB8Hf1sEeiEchAHP50TjEbgnbuk%2BF3i0x%2FeqtV53HwShZjOPhRIF%2Fer0K79uhJbe0RYuFk75QclcgLCpou3Qmt7Bn5cGlUgoWXLxC0n9sTbVhFp9zuFuaBUA5c%2FXysH8sQS%2F2IZXDxE7f9Fo60A173hgBS1fcpPd3i8XKIp0JrOHomKfHUDh8DkuKrwE5poOEI2Uiv%2BtTl%2F7PPZn5DkJZHUtB9bhm04%2FIip8LqDRsgxHW0N3ixhCGkC9JKxkICrz2FecbsMy%2BrlAjQF9ByhbiMa3nb52XdfcRmLqxV8Sgc1l%2FQWm%2BVLzg09t27Xy%2FdN1fJzV8Tgmjzg4e0mSKursYI3v32UY8sXTRuJa%2FvRGcnqGNESQMd6iE2tvx2nsHvs1aoGUanQL1cTEoMEEPZ%2B1reHS2pBqBdQp%2BS%2FVNU%2BZTPBn2XU7dIA9ANtjgzELiVc%2F0YbZtG60zVHHs9Tl4QoE1bagChjUl%2Bq2YSixtqFjaO%2BwOEuV9p9mCpw%3D%3D|clp%3A2334524|tkp%3ABFBMjIrOxspf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 1 hour ago, usnavystgc said: What are your thoughts on this rad for a temporary measure? Looks like a good solution for a driver. If needed, I would install on any of mine since I don't have them judged anymore. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAD36 Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 (edited) Al radiator will extract more heat than Cu radiator and we have a situation of more heat being driven into the system than can be extracted from the system on a cool day both at speed (typically not enough radiator) and at idle (typically not enough air). Make sure nothing abnormal is driving more heat into the system or preventing efficient transfer of heat from/to the coolant. My thought is it’s still worth it to flush the block or, albeit harder, taking your easiest accessible freeze plug out to see how much sediment is in the motor after sitting for 50 years with who know what was left in it soaking before you put a new radiator in, then yes concur for your purposes popping one of the aluminum rads in after everything else is ruled out. That should offer enough heat extraction to keep the car cooler and closer your to your thermostat setting (I.e. min operating temperature) and your oil pressure high enough even during your hottest Arizona season until you want to take the spiritual plunge on an engine refresh or rebuild. 1) Heres an older link and discussion: https://forums.aaca.org/topic/53733-1956-buick-overheating-problem-help/ 2) Interesting reading from a caddy site in my bookmarks on effect of timing advance and temperature. In my casual research both sides of this equation come up regarding temperature readings being lower in advanced (but not enough to detonate) or retarded timing situations. Not wanting to start a debate but FWIW this reference matches my observations/experience and what was taught to me so just passing it along. BTW am not advocating any changes to the vacuum source on this motor for idle purposes, just reinforcing the teams inputs on proper vac advance operation during off idle, normal operation and it’s contribution to temperature.. https://cadillacmagazine.com/forums/threads/the-effect-of-vacuum-advance-on-cooling.19024/ BTW - How’s that new radiator cap holdin’ up 🤣. Keep up the good work you’re on the right track. Edited January 13, 2022 by KAD36 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAD36 Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 4 hours ago, old-tank said: Look at the circulation of coolant: lower radiator>water pump>lower block>rear of cylinder head>across head (where heat is generated)>back to thermostat and top of radiator. Good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dship Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 This is a wilda#% guess since I only owned a '56 Mercury many/many years ago, but are you missing a fan shroud? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smartin Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 Has the radiator not been cleaned out yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usnavystgc Posted January 14, 2022 Author Share Posted January 14, 2022 1 hour ago, dship said: This is a wilda#% guess since I only owned a '56 Mercury many/many years ago, but are you missing a fan shroud? I have a shroud and it's in place. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usnavystgc Posted January 14, 2022 Author Share Posted January 14, 2022 20 minutes ago, Smartin said: Has the radiator not been cleaned out yet? It was flow tested by the repair shop and they said it had good flow but I agree with your line of thinking. I'm going to attempt a reverse flow flush on it tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 You can't evaluate or fix a radiator by flushing, flow testing or boiling out. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usnavystgc Posted January 14, 2022 Author Share Posted January 14, 2022 14 hours ago, old-tank said: You can't evaluate or fix a radiator by flushing, flow testing or boiling out. I am confident the radiator is clogged. As you guys know, I'm kind of new at this game esp cooling systems and all the stuff that can affect it. I never knew timing and vacuum affected cooling but, now, I do (thanks to you guys). In trying to work my way thru this, last night, I thought it best to go ahead and purchase the AL radiator and send mine off to be 3 row cored. I got ahold of John with Classic Car Radiators and he said he can get the 3 row high efficiency core. I'm gonna go ahead and do that just because I want my original radiator fixed but, I also want to try the AL radiator. It's not the cheapest fix but, I think it will be worth it in the end. It will also give us (as a forum) a chance to test the AL radiators that are being sold on eBay. My brother (who is a classic Buick fan and once owned my father's 52 Super), is coming and we are going to Barrett Jackson (not to sell or buy) together this year. I would really like to take my car but, at a minimum, I want him to be able to drive it while he's here. I know this isn't a logical path financially but, these cars are all about memories and bonds that you forge both when you're young and old. So that's my plan. I hope its a good one. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 It will be interesting to learn if the aluminum radiator works as well, or better than the copper. Whike reading the cooling tech page for Centerville auto it is mentioned that the aluminim does not cool as well as the copper. It also points out that the aluminum tanks cannot be separated if the radiator gets plugged so be sure to filter the coolant at the top radiator hose. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usnavystgc Posted January 14, 2022 Author Share Posted January 14, 2022 Will do JD, thanks for that insight. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 You will be happy with the three core, I think. I am with the one in my 1950 Special. When refurbishing the car in2008-09, the original core was found to be a sieve. A new core was installed. Last year, 2021, it became plugged. I knew of a 1951 Roadmaster radiator, which is three core, and bought it. Installed clearances are at the minimum. It works so well the 195 degree thermostat does not keep the temp above 185. Ben 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 2 hours ago, usnavystgc said: Will do JD, thanks for that insight. BTW, with regards to your oil pressure issue, I was looking at my parts manual today and saw these pages: Which made me wonder about the condition of the spring in the pressure passage ( part D in the first photo )? If you remove the oil pan again, I would strongly suggest plastigauge measurements of one main bearing and if you find that reading to be within tolerance then I would suggest checking the spring in the oil pump. The oil pump spring and valve are a "kit" and the second picture gives the kit # plus the spring number. I have never had to look for those parts so I do not know where they can be found now but I would try to source a new spring if possible before going this route, so it is ready to install. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAD36 Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, usnavystgc said: . I got ahold of John with Classic Car Radiators and he said he can get the 3 row high efficiency core. I'm gonna go ahead and do that just because I want my original radiator fixed Agree with Ben - That 3 core HE radiator has tubes on 3/8 vs 9/16 centers, works well, and saved my 322 after installing AC. Really interested to hear the numbers on how the Al works especially when the big heat comes. Regarding the web information on Al not cooling as well as Cu that might be true when considering the properties of the two standalone materials but when “assembled” into a subsystem (the radiator), depending on design and construction techniques, Al radiators can cool better if their design happens to employ larger tubes (more surface area) plus they lack the lead solder which impedes the heat transfer between joints. As with any of these things the answer is it depends and the devil is in the design details. Just sharing some info from my past AC project when talking to the old school radiator shop owner in Endicott that helped size and rebuild mine - twice - I really really wanted to try Al but preferred the upper tank look of original for my cars purposes. Feel free to correct me if I got anything wrong - no firsthand experience. Edited January 14, 2022 by KAD36 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 John at Classic Radiator will take good care of you. Here's what my '38 Buick radiator looked like when they opened it up: According to John, my new core flows 4x the one shown above. I just got it back today via UPS. Pictures coming... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usnavystgc Posted January 15, 2022 Author Share Posted January 15, 2022 Wow Emtee, I wonder if mine looks that bad. Glad to know someone has first hand positive experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 Gary W also had the radiator for his '37 rebuilt there with the same 3-row core I chose. https://forums.aaca.org/topic/287685-1937-buick-model-48-restoration-has-begun-photo/page/5/ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usnavystgc Posted January 18, 2022 Author Share Posted January 18, 2022 Bad news on this front. The AL radiator came in yesterday and it does not have the tranny cooler ports. The pic in the eBay ad clearly shows the ports and that's why I went ahead and ordered this radiator. I have sent an email to the seller and I'm awaiting a response. The radiator looks beautiful but, it will not work so, I'm def not gonna try to work with it. I will keep you all informed on what happens. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 Well, you could install a dedicated trans cooler if you still want to use this particular radiator... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 46 minutes ago, EmTee said: Well, you could install a dedicated trans cooler if you still want to use this particular radiator... Not a bad idea as far as function goes but that would add cost and work to your project just because the supplier did not send the right radiator. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usnavystgc Posted January 18, 2022 Author Share Posted January 18, 2022 Yeah, I thought about that @EmTee but, then I thought about what Willie said and I'm gonna try to force them to send me the right radiator. I must admit its very frustrating considering the only reason I was buying this radiator is so we could drive the car while my brother is here. Hopefully I can get the right radiator before he leaves on the 28th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 Yup, I understand, however, some of those aluminum radiators aren't available with a built-in trans cooler. They may tell you the picture was wrong and you'd have to fine a different radiator. I thought you were going to have your original radiator re-cored... I just got mine back from Classic Radiator last week. Even with the holidays, it took almost exactly 4 weeks from the time I sent it to them. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usnavystgc Posted January 19, 2022 Author Share Posted January 19, 2022 (edited) I am def going to have my radiator recored by John at Classic Radiator but, I was ordering this one for when my brother comes next week and to keep on testing while mine is being recored. The seller of the AL radiator responded by saying, Oh, sorry, please send it back. So, here's what I learned. 1) Even though the picture shows the trans cooler ports, this particular one does not have them 2) I'm afraid to order one from another vendor only to get another without trans cooler ports (even though all the pics show them with trans cooler ports) So, do I take a chance and order another from another vendor or do I try to use this one and by a trans cooler? That is the question. This one was the cheapest at $350. The others are $370 and up. I sent a message to another vendor asking them if theirs had the ports and they said, oh yes, the picture was taken of an actual radiator at the factory. Somehow that did not inspire confidence in me. I really don't want to be down for 4 weeks and I'd really like for my brother to be able to drive the car while he's here so, I'm pondering what to do. I saw a trans cooler on Amazon for $25 that looks pretty good and I think I could get it installed without modifying the original lines so, I may just keep this one and go that route. I know you all must think I'm crazy and you're probably right. Edited January 19, 2022 by usnavystgc (see edit history) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usnavystgc Posted January 19, 2022 Author Share Posted January 19, 2022 I was just reading the owners manual and I came across this; "NOTE: When engine is idling, oil gauge may show red; however, this can be considered normal if pressure picks up as engine RMP is increased" So, I have to ask, do any of your oil pressure gages go to red at idle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 Not mine. But I believe later Buicks can idle on as little as 5lbs. One thing to consider is the range of your guage. Since normal pressure is less than 40 lbs having a gauge that goes to 100 lbs can really throw a crazy looking reading when OP is that low. Look at cars with numerical guages in this time period. Many have top readings in the 30-50 lb range. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 8 hours ago, usnavystgc said: I saw a trans cooler on Amazon for $25 that looks pretty good and I think I could get it installed without modifying the original lines so, I may just keep this one and go that route. I think that's the way to go, given what you're trying to accomplish. When it's all over and the dust settles you should be able to sell the aluminum radiator and recover some of your cash... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAD36 Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 17 minutes ago, EmTee said: I think that's the way to go, given what you're trying to accomplish. When it's all over and the dust settles you should be able to sell the aluminum radiator and recover some of your cash... ^——- Concur. Save the recored one for your restoration. Is the Amazon one intended to provide primary cooling, not auxiliary cooling (like to help with trailer towing?). Probably want more than 4 single rows to operate standalone vs in conjunction with factory cooler but that’s a total WAG. Maybe someone has some objective guidance to help ensure it’s not undersized. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usnavystgc Posted January 20, 2022 Author Share Posted January 20, 2022 (edited) Update on what's going on with the AL radiator. The seller seems to have taken full responsibility for the mistake on the radiator. The ad states that the buyer is responsible for return shipping but, I asked them to send me a return label since the mistake was theirs and not mine. They did agree to send me a return label and pay the return shipping. I then inquired as to whether or not they had a radiator with the trans cooler ports and they stated they did not. This leads me to believe that all of these radiators do not have the trans cooler ports as pictured (I could be wrong but, I'm betting they are all the same). With that in mind I decided to install a separate trans cooler. When I told them that, they said great and gave me a $50 discount (which will more than cover the cost of the trans cooler). I thought that was pretty stand up. After much research and help from others, I decided to buy an 8 row trans cooler from Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/Hayden-Automotive-405-Ultra-Cool-Transmission/dp/B000C3F3HK/ref=sr_1_8?crid=35KZ0L9J6TZHL&keywords=hayden+transmission+cooler&qid=1642702706&sprefix=hayden+tra%2Caps%2C179&sr=8-8). This is for large vehicles that are towing and it has pretty good reviews. It is supposed to be here on Jan 23rd. That's just in time for my brother to help me install it. Edited January 20, 2022 by usnavystgc (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usnavystgc Posted January 31, 2022 Author Share Posted January 31, 2022 Well, I have very good news to report on this front. On Tuesday of last week, my brother and I installed the new radiator and trans cooler. We took it for a long drive, a drive that would have overheated the car in the past. The gauge never went above 160 so, I pushed it harder and it still didn't go above 160. I have driven it several times since then with no overheating issues. I think its safe to say that the overheating problem is fixed. Thank you all for working with me and all the help to get me past this obstacle. The car is really running great now. With the cooler engine temp, the oil pressure is also better. At 160, it is about 3-5 psi in "D" at idle. While that's not great, its better than 0. As before, there is no knocking or valve train noise (or no other unusual noise associated with low oil pressure). At a steady state 30, the oil pressure is close to 15 psi and it goes up from there as you speed up. I know these aren't good numbers but, short of a rebuild, I don't know what else to do. I'm gonna keep driving the car for a while and monitor how it performs. As of right now, the car is running and driving the best it ever has. With the proper timing setting, it seems to have much more power and is not so doggy in take off in "D". Take off in "L" is very good. I can keep up with most modern cars. I even outran a 95 Ford Focus from takeoff. So, suffice to say, the cooling issue is fixed. In my view, the oil pressure is bare minimum satisfactory. I don't see it getting any better but, if it gets worse, I'm gonna try to replace the spring in the oil pump and plastigage one of the main bearings as JD suggested. If that doesn't work, I guess I will need to consider rebuild options. 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usnavystgc Posted February 7, 2022 Author Share Posted February 7, 2022 (edited) Ok, back to working on Beaut. I went to go drive her and she wouldn't start. No crank no nothing, Bright headlights, solid horn. After listening closely, I( could hear the starter relay (left fenderwell) clicking but, it wasn't the solid sounding click that I've heard before. So the first thing that came to mind was, a weak ground. After cleaning the contacts on the relay (even though they weren't dirty), same symptoms. So, I took a jumper wire and force a good ground on the green wire of the starter relay and voila, she starts right up continuously and consistently when the good ground is forced. In tracing the wire back, the ground comes thru the windings of the generator and is one of the safety features to prevent the starter from engaging once the engine is started (generator spins, forces electrons against the flow to ground and no more path to ground for the green wire). I cleaned all contacts both on the voltage regulator and the generator. I also cleaned the grounding bolt for the generator housing to ensure the generator is getting a good ground. This did not fix the problem. Additionally, the ammeter gage never reads in the green, it is either well in the red or just below the middle mark. It never hits the green. Has anyone experienced this? Is my generator due for a rebuild? I mean I can drive the car but, I don't really want to bypass the safety mechanism. Here's the schematic with the green wire in question highlighted. Edited February 7, 2022 by usnavystgc (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 2 hours ago, usnavystgc said: Additionally, the ammeter gage never reads in the green, it is either well in the red or just below the middle mark. It never hits the green. Seems that the generator is not charging. If the brushes do not make good contact with the commutator, you do not have the needed ground. Anyhow your generator is the problem. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usnavystgc Posted February 7, 2022 Author Share Posted February 7, 2022 That's what I suspected. I guess that means it's time to pull it out and take a look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 2 minutes ago, usnavystgc said: That's what I suspected. I guess that means it's time to pull it out and take a look. Maybe all it needs is to replace the brushes and/or clean the commutator. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usnavystgc Posted February 10, 2022 Author Share Posted February 10, 2022 (edited) Just wanted to share with you guys what I learned with the whole generator experience. You can order a rebuilt generator from your local auto parts store. I ordered one from O'Reilly's. If you ask them for a replacement generator for your car, they will not be able to find one but, if you tell them look up part # R412225A, you will come up with a direct fit replacement 30A Generator. The "Lester" number (which I'm told is a part number with many interchangeable substitutions) is 9005 for the 30A and 9045 for the 35A for AC cars. Here's a link to the one I bought. https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c/ultima/alternators---starters/generator/e97380cc7862/ultima-30-amp-generator/ost0/r412225a/v/a/5477/automotive-car-1990-ford-mustang Here is some supplemental reading for anyone that's interested. https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/will-this-generator-work.1013447 Thanks to @old-tank and @KAD36 for the assist in figuring all of this out. Edited February 10, 2022 by usnavystgc (see edit history) 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 So the issue was more than just brushes on the original generator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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