1922 6/45 engine rebuild

[Greacore]

OK I am getting ready to rebuild the engine on my 1922 Buick 6/45 touring.  Is there already a link for the complete rebuild process? I bought a gasket kit from Olsens, I want to use them all.  I do have the Reference books but I believe these are mainly for maintenance. Thank you in advance.  

[hidden_hunter]

Have you got the shop manual? 

 

Take photos of everything you do

 

That motor looks like someone has dome stuff at some point not that long ago, do you know what was done? 

[Greacore]

I do have two reference books. I pulled a spark plug and it really looks good.  The main reason for replacing the gaskets is to make sure the motor hasn’t a hole in it.  Your right, I believe someone has done work to it which makes me wonder why it was never completed.  Even some metal work was started but never completed.  Everything moves really well on the engine, but, fan belt looks old as Moses. Just draining the oil, so much sludge that it clogged.  Distributor clips are rotted in half. This thing is a total conundrum, some things look immaculate while others look old and deteriorated.

[Mark Kikta]

I documented my 1922 6 cyl engine rebuild in my 15 page thread titled "1922 engine progress".  You can see everything that I did anyway over a year and a half or so in that thread.  I got a lot of help along the way which was great.

 

Good Luck!

 

Mark

[Brian_Heil]

Do a compression check before you tear things down. It’s a very durable engine.  You may not find all that much out of order. 
 

Clean the pan and oil pump, rebuild the valve cages, inspect and set the bearings and you could be good to go. 
 

Watch, count and record your shims on the main and rod caps. 

[Morgan Wright]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. My babbitt bearings were fine, imagine if I messed with them? What a mess! I got my engine running great and never touched the camshaft, roller lifters, or cylinders which were smooth as mirrors. I used the same 100 year old coil and distributor cap, and points. What I did was take the pistons out the bottom and clean them and put new rings, and oil rings, teflon wrist pin protectors, plasti-gauged them, and I took out all the valves and sent them to get lapped. Why does your engine need a new rebuild?

 

If it ain't broke, fix it till it is.

[Larry Schramm]

There is such a thing as preventive maintenance.  This is predicated on the expected use.

 

Tennis shoe mode is not the desired mode of transportation if you are planning on getting somewhere using a vehicle.

Edited July 3, 2021 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[Greacore]

6 hours ago, Mark Kikta said:

I documented my 1922 6 cyl engine rebuild in my 15 page thread titled "1922 engine progress".  You can see everything that I did anyway over a year and a half or so in that thread.  I got a lot of help along the way which was great.

 

Good Luck!

 

Mark

How do I find a thread? I try searching but it takes me to all but what I am seeking 

[Greacore]

3 hours ago, Morgan Wright said:

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. My babbitt bearings were fine, imagine if I messed with them? What a mess! I got my engine running great and never touched the camshaft, roller lifters, or cylinders which were smooth as mirrors. I used the same 100 year old coil and distributor cap, and points. What I did was take the pistons out the bottom and clean them and put new rings, and oil rings, teflon wrist pin protectors, plasti-gauged them, and I took out all the valves and sent them to get lapped. Why does your engine need a new rebuild?

 

If it ain't broke, fix it till it is.

I don’t know the history and I figured if I replaced all the gaskets I might find out why the last person quit working at restoring/repairing it.  
 Thank you!  I found it. This is what I was seeking.  

Edited July 3, 2021 by Greacore (see edit history)

[Greacore]

I read in other posts about spacers on the pistons. Is this something I need to worry about or is it part of the assembly that fit back into place. I am pulling pistons this morning so I will find out first hand in about ten minutes anyway.  

[Hubert_25-25]

If you have an engraver, before and during disassembly, mark items with some nomenclature (arrows, numbers, front, left, etc.) to ensure that parts go back where they came off and how they came off.  Take lots of photos.  Make the assumption that if someone else pulled the parts out of a box, they could reassemble exactly as it was pulled apart.  Many parts just need a cleaning and they can be reassembled in exactly the way they were removed.  Pen or "marks a lot" marks can be washed off.  If you are methodical, you can do well to give everything a deep cleaning and inspection and rebuild an engine for minimal costs.

Hugh   

Edited July 17, 2021 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

[Mark Kikta]

Make sure you know exactly where the shims came from because they need to go back the exact same places. 
I went to the hardware store and got a bunch of small brass tags and some safety wire.  I marked each tag with a punch and wired the tags to all pistons, rods and caps so I could not mix them up. There were arrows inside my pistons so I knew which way the went back on because there is a front and back or you could say left and right.  There is a right and left to the caps also.

[Terry Wiegand]

I want to pass along some things that I learned going through my 1916 6-Cylinder engine.  The guys at Abrahams Machine told me that the old poured bearings will get brittle over time.  106 years will certainly do that to the bearings.  Dave told me that a person could check the bearings and they could appear fine as far as clearances go, however, they should not be trusted because of the age.  I am not trying to throw cold water on anyone's parade here - I'm just reporting the facts as I learned them.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

[Greacore]

This is the worse one, the only one in fact that looks bad.  

[Terry Wiegand]

That is not good at all.  I'd put a few dollars on the others following this one very soon once you get the engine up and running.  That is the problem with that OLD Babbitt - it will spall and flake out because of being brittle.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

[Greacore]

Can I buy new ones or is there a suggested fix?  The same cylinder has a small wear grove down the side.  Some of the rings nearly  disintegrated upon removing from cylinder.  Also a lot of carbon build up on top of the pistons.    After soaking the pistons in parts cleaner, they really shined up. I will order new rings after I take care of the grove issue on the # 4 cylinder.  

[Barry R]

Pistons are available from a company in Australia. They are very reasonably priced and shipping won’t cost you as much as you thing. But you have to be patient it takes time.

[Henri Hendriksen]

On 7/18/2021 at 9:38 PM, Barry R said:

Pistons are available from a company in Australia. They are very reasonably priced and shipping won’t cost you as much as you thing. But you have to be patient it takes time.

JP pistons in Australia make good quality alloy pistons. (see website) My 1927 master 6 has got JP's they have been good for about 14,000 miles so far.  

[jbbuick22]

When you have the pistons out check the bores for taper. You will probably find #6 will have the most taper.

 

Boreing or sleeving with new alloy pistons is the way to go.

 

 

John

22-6-55

[Hubert_25-25]

Not understanding some items in the piston photo.

- This 4 ring piston has the lowest ring being a compression ring.  I would think it should be an oil control ring.  No reason for a compression ring here.

- Upper rings have an angled cut for the ring end gap.  The lowest ring is a stepped gap.  Makes it difficult to set the ring end gap with this angle.  Modern ring gaps are usually square cut.  Bottom ring is impossible to change the ring gap on, and I wonder if this being a different style came from the same manufacturer as the other rings or someone else.

- disassembled engine internal parts should never be placed on the pavement.  

[Morgan Wright]

3 hours ago, Hubert_25-25 said:

Not understanding some items in the piston photo.

- This 4 ring piston has the lowest ring being a compression ring.  I would think it should be an oil control ring.  No reason for a compression ring here.

- Upper rings have an angled cut for the ring end gap.  The lowest ring is a stepped gap.  Makes it difficult to set the ring end gap with this angle.  Modern ring gaps are usually square cut.  Bottom ring is impossible to change the ring gap on, and I wonder if this being a different style came from the same manufacturer as the other rings or someone else.

 

My 1917 had 4 stepped gap compression rings on every piston. I wonder when oil rings were invented. There were no oil holes in the oil ring groove on mine, so fenestrated oil rings would have served no purpose anyway. I did drill 4 or 5 holes in each oil ring groove, and replaced with oil rings. The compression rings I used were square cut.

[Greacore]

6 hours ago, Morgan Wright said:

 

My 1917 had 4 stepped gap compression rings on every piston. I wonder when oil rings were invented. There were no oil holes in the oil ring groove on mine, so fenestrated oil rings would have served no purpose anyway. I did drill 4 or 5 holes in each oil ring groove, and replaced with oil rings. The compression rings I used were square cut.

These do have holes under the bottom ring

[Greacore]

9 hours ago, Hubert_25-25 said:

Not understanding some items in the piston photo.

- This 4 ring piston has the lowest ring being a compression ring.  I would think it should be an oil control ring.  No reason for a compression ring here.

- Upper rings have an angled cut for the ring end gap.  The lowest ring is a stepped gap.  Makes it difficult to set the ring end gap with this angle.  Modern ring gaps are usually square cut.  Bottom ring is impossible to change the ring gap on, and I wonder if this being a different style came from the same manufacturer as the other rings or someone else.

- disassembled engine internal parts should never be placed on the pavement.  

What should the ring order be? This is the way they came out, do you think they were changed prior?

[Greacore]

10 hours ago, jbbuick22 said:

When you have the pistons out check the bores for taper. You will probably find #6 will have the most taper.

 

Boreing or sleeving with new alloy pistons is the way to go.

 

 

John

22-6-55

I have to bore only one cylinder. I think only one piston will have to be replaced.  I am going to do this myself in the driveway.  

[Hubert_25-25]

Top 2 rings should be compression.   Third is oil control.  If there is one on the skirt, it should be oil control.

[Greacore]

39 minutes ago, Hubert_25-25 said:

Top 2 rings should be compression.   Third is oil control.  If there is one on the skirt, it should be oil control.

What are your thoughts on boring one cylinder? Having just one slightly larger piston?  

[Rock10]

15 minutes ago, Greacore said:

What are your thoughts on boring one cylinder? Having just one slightly larger piston?  

Wouldn't that throw off the balance and performance?

[Greacore]

1 hour ago, Rock10 said:

Wouldn't that throw off the balance and performance?

It would have to weigh the same for balance and I don’t think the additional volume would cause a performance issue especially with such low HP. I am not a mechanic but I try to see things in the basic form. 
  That is also why I am looking for others input, ideas and personal mishaps from their own experiences. My alternative is to junk it.  I will never be able to afford the “ up to $9,000” to have this professionally restored.  That’s just the motor. 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Greacore
Added content (see edit history)

[Mark Kikta]

Greacore,

 

Here is a presentation I put together on my pistons and rings in case it may be of interest/help.

[Greacore]

2 hours ago, Mark Kikta said:

Greacore,

 

Here is a presentation I put together on my pistons and rings in case it may be of interest/help.

are the bottom two rings oil control rings or are the top 3 for compression?  Are these now new pistons or did you clean them?  
Did you clean the wrist pins or did you replace them?  

[Mark Kikta]

The top 3 are compression rings according to the ring expert I dealt with at Otto machine.  I soaked, scrubbed  and cleaned the pistons and all parts in kerosene and spray brake cleaner.  I did not replace anything except the rings.  Cylinders were great and only required honing.  Also did a valve job of course. Submerged the piston assembly in oil just before re-installing.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Mark Kikta (see edit history)

[Greacore]

12 hours ago, Mark Kikta said:

The top 3 are compression rings according to the ring expert I dealt with at Otto machine.  I soaked, scrubbed  and cleaned the pistons and all parts in kerosene and spray brake cleaner.  I did not replace anything except the rings.  Cylinders were great and only required honing.  Also did a valve job of course. Submerged the piston assembly in oil just before re-installing.

Thank you Mark, I think I am getting close to starting this project.