The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida

[prewarnut]

...sounds like deaccessioning is in order....too bad about their attitude but what the h%&* are they going to do with it without rims?

[edinmass]

1 minute ago, prewarnut said:

...sounds like deaccessioning is in order....too bad about their attitude but what the h%&* are they going to do with it without rims?

 

Museums never spend money on cars......even if they are car museums. They no longer serve their original purpose. They now serve to give over paid curators and caretakers high salaries, the mission statement has been lost forever...........

[1912Staver]

Hi Ed, catalog is dated 1939 but I think the numbers at the bottom of the page indicate this page was created in 1937. Even then your mag was obsolete . 

[1912Staver]

Would have yours been the dual ign. type ? Looks like that one could still be supplied if special ordered. Post war I expect they were rocking horse manure. 

[George K]

Just in case you find one.

[edinmass]

I have some great magneto stuff I can share tomorrow.......

[edinmass]

George........lots of new info, and I will be posting some additional copies of factory stuff soon......busy as hell here at the shop, two cars going out Friday for a tour in the mountains again............

 

 

Wheelbase of Car #2 128 inches..............

 

Phil confirmed this morning it’s a “lighter” chassis than Car #1......his words........”number one is like a one ton truck, number two is like a 3/4 ton truck.” Front and rear axles are different, as are spindles, wheel hubs, steering, ect............it appears that the transmissions are significantly different also. Battery box position on Car #2 looks like it’s a 4-45 or 6-60 application from 1915. Wheel bearings are smaller on number two, as are the hubs, wheels, and rims. Car #2 needs new king pin bushings upper and lower as well as bearings. Front wheel nuts were loose......almost sloppy.......more tractor mechanic issues...........and there is an unidentifiable noise in the rear end..........” enough to give you religion“, so it isn’t going to be “oysters and champagne cocktails on the Rappahannock“ Time will tell..........

 

 

I have still only seen Number two once, for ten minutes.......and won’t have time to look at it until I return from the tour in two weeks........this working for a living sure gets in the way of old cars.......(mine, that is!)

Edited October 12, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[George K]

31 minutes ago, edinmass said:

George........lots of new info, and I will be posting some additional copies of factory stuff soon......busy as hell here at the shop, two cars going out Friday for a tour in the mountains again............

 

 

Wheelbase of Car #2 128 inches..............

 

Phil confirmed this morning it’s a “lighter” chassis than Car #1......his words........”number one is like a one ton truck, number two is like a 3/4 ton truck.” Front and rear axles are different, as are spindles, wheel hubs, steering, ect............it appears that the transmissions are significantly different also. Battery box position on Car #2 looks like it’s a 4-45 or 6-60 application from 1915. Wheel bearings are smaller on number two, as are the hubs, wheels, and rims. Car #2 needs new king pin bushings upper and lower as well as bearings. Front wheel nuts were loose......almost sloppy.......more tractor mechanic issues...........and there is an unidentifiable noise in the rear end..........” enough to give you religion“, so it isn’t going to be “oysters and champagne cocktails on the Rappahannock“ Time will tell..........

 

 

I have still only seen Number two once, for ten minutes.......and won’t have time to look at it until I return from the tour in two weeks........this working for a living sure gets in the way of old cars.......(mine, that is!)

Ed Thanks and good luck. Sounds like a one off. 

[SC38dls]

Ed, Think of all the fun you will have with your cars after having a great ride in the mountains in someone else's car and getting paid for it! How can we all get so lucky to find a job like that? Besides working at it for 35-40 years. 

dave s

Edited October 12, 2021 by SC38DLS (see edit history)

[29StutzM]

I have to tell you, as an innocent bystander, I love this story. it is fun following Ed's journey, the new info as it is found and the response from everyone on this discussion! 

Thank you all!  

[George K]

More poor photos ,Interesting text.

[mike6024]

https://books.google.com/books?id=94pHAQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

Page 34 for Dec 7, 1916

 

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[George K]

2 minutes ago, mike6024 said:

https://books.google.com/books?id=94pHAQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

 

Thanks. That past my pay grade.

[George K]

WW1 White. Just what Ed needs for those tours.

[edinmass]

4 minutes ago, George K said:

WW1 White. Just what Ed needs for those tours.

 

 

I like it....but it needs more firepower. Someday, ask me about my "farm" up north. And why the garage is built to park a Sherman Tank in it, literally. 

Edited October 12, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

2 hours ago, George K said:

Ed Thanks and good luck. Sounds like a one off. 

 

 

It's looking that way. Not sure that will be a good thing if the rear end has major issues............I'm guessing its a 1914-1916 4-45 chassis........with what ever modifications were needed to make it work......

[George K]

25 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

 

I like it....but it needs more firepower. Someday, ask me about my "farm" up north. And why the garage is built to park a Sherman Tank in it, literally. 

I figured as much. Although I knew this one was too light. pneumatics and all.

[edinmass]

It’s been interesting hunting down White car details......... especially looking at the fuel and ignition systems, trying to nail down dates. I see information posted to trade journals that contradict each other sixty days apart. I see information that clearly makes sense due to the war effort with Bosch going a forced change of ownership from the war effort. I also see empty spots in reporting type of materials and equipment provided on White cars and trucks.........clearly WWI was more disruptive on fuel, metals, materials, and consumer items than I would have thought. The only thing that is certain.......you can’t predict anything when it Comes to White cars and trucks. I ran out of time to post a bunch of items today........I will try tomorrow. 

[George K]

22 minutes ago, edinmass said:

It’s been interesting hunting down White car details......... especially looking at the fuel and ignition systems, trying to nail down dates. I see information posted to trade journals that contradict each other sixty days apart. I see information that clearly makes sense due to the war effort with Bosch going a forced change of ownership from the war effort. I also see empty spots in reporting type of materials and equipment provided on White cars and trucks.........clearly WWI was more disruptive on fuel, metals, materials, and consumer items than I would have thought. The only thing that is certain.......you can’t predict anything when it Comes to White cars and trucks. I ran out of time to post a bunch of items today........I will try tomorrow. 

I got something that’s interesting. See what you think. After seeing this go to coachbuilt site to read a long but wild story. Google Pioneer Commercial Auto Co. I think it looks like #2 in scale and overall look sans the top. Just saying. Cheers George 

[1912Staver]

Here is a White I would gladly give a home. The cars are way beyond my budget, but the trucks can be a bit more wallet friendly. Not sure what's up with the skeleton guy .

 

[LI_BENTLEY]

The lights on early electric equipped Whites are 6 volts while the starter/ generator and battery are 18 volts. They taped the battery at 6 volts for the lights. The early electric equipped Whites had the s/g on left side of engine on the hinged plate silent chain drive to magineto shaft and weighs 110 pounds.  In 1915 they put s/g next to transmission with shaft running forward with a silent chain to flywheel.  All 60 hp Whites are electrical lighted and started.  They are the first 6 cylinder so equipped.

[mike6024]

A document was put up showing 21 volts. That makes sense if it were 18 volts because you would want a generator that puts out 21 to charge 18 volts worth of batteries.

 

A 12 volt battery is actually 12.6 because lead-acid gives you 2.1 volts per cell just based on the chemistry, so 6 cells is actually 12.6 volts and typically a 14.5 volt generator or alternator would be used to charge that. So by proportion, you would use 21 volts to charge 18.

 

Also you could run 6 volt lights directly with 18 volts if you wired them in series. 3 bulbs wired in series with 18 volts applied would give you only 6 volts across each individual bulb.

 

The wiring diagram shown above shows bulbs wired in series.

 

That's not to say the trucks weren't wired differently. maybe they were.

 

 

( It's clear the headlights are wired in series, not parallel )

 

Edited October 13, 2021 by mike6024
fix typo cells (see edit history)

[edinmass]

10 hours ago, LI_BENTLEY said:

The lights on early electric equipped Whites are 6 volts while the starter/ generator and battery are 18 volts. They taped the battery at 6 volts for the lights. The early electric equipped Whites had the s/g on left side of engine on the hinged plate silent chain drive to magineto shaft and weighs 110 pounds.  In 1915 they put s/g next to transmission with shaft running forward with a silent chain to flywheel.  All 60 hp Whites are electrical lighted and started.  They are the first 6 cylinder so equipped.

I have not seen this set up, but it is exactly what was described to me by a friend, who has a problem with his starter and is looking to replace it with something else. He too said the thing was so heavy it was insane.......causing much of the problem. I’m rather certain keeping it stock regardless of cost is the best repair.....seldom do mew designs work out well in the long run.......especially at 18 volts.

Edited October 13, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Below are a bunch of interesting items, many are to show price comparisons from other high end cars, compared to a White, which in 1917 was 4700 dollars for the least expensive model. Double what a V-8 Peerless was selling for. Others are technical information or just things I found interesting. Ed

[edinmass]

[edinmass]

[edinmass]

[edinmass]

[edinmass]

[edinmass]

The above show how crazy expensive a White automobile was.........More than a Packard Twin Six, and double a Cadillac V-8. Makes one ponder why a guy would buy a four, when a twelve with a better dealer network was available.......and more prestigious at the time?

[George K]

30 minutes ago, edinmass said:

The above show how crazy expensive a White automobile was.........More than a Packard Twin Six, and double a Cadillac V-8. Makes one ponder why a guy would buy a four, when a twelve with a better dealer network was available.......and more prestigious at the time?

Ed, The reason is the same as why you bought it. It’s fast, quality built and cool.

[JV Puleo]

Since they didn't make many of them, it looks as if not many did buy them. I suspect that those that did had some sort of relationship with or knowledge of the company that alerted them to its quality and were in the bracket where the cost was inconsequential. The attractive features are the sort of thing that would appeal to someone with a knowledge of engineering...while automobile advertising was already veering in the direction of "style" and engineering de-emphasized. Obviously, this didn't happen all at once or in a short time but the trend was beginning, moving to the present situation where quality of the mechanical workmanship is ignored and the emphasis is mostly on electronic gadgets and "luxury."

[Terry Harper]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

 

 

I have always wanted to hear someone's first hand experience with one of the C-H gearshifts. Though I suspect few have survived intact. 

 

My thought on the White:

It was no doubt a quality car with excellent performance and engineering yet doesn't really seem to fall into the recognized prestige category of the day with the likes of Pierce or Packard etc. as far as the public was concerned. Perhaps being associated with the companies primary product - i.e. trucks, tarnished the luster in the eyes of the well heeled public. However, I could well imagine someone with a fleet of White trucks adhering to brand loyalty. Similar to Case automobiles or Velie when they were associated with John Deere. 

[edinmass]

33 minutes ago, Terry Harper said:

 

I have always wanted to hear someone's first hand experience with one of the C-H gearshifts. Though I suspect few have survived intact. 

 

My thought on the White:

It was no doubt a quality car with excellent performance and engineering yet doesn't really seem to fall into the recognized prestige category of the day with the likes of Pierce or Packard etc. as far as the public was concerned. Perhaps being associated with the companies primary product - i.e. trucks, tarnished the luster in the eyes of the well heeled public. However, I could well imagine someone with a fleet of White trucks adhering to brand loyalty. Similar to Case automobiles or Velie when they were associated with John Deere. 

 

 

I agree 100 percent........think about it. White was the number one truck company in America. They built a fantastic product. Why not have your company buy a custom bodied car and add it to the fleet.......saves the owners from buying one out of pocket. Just add it to the fleet inventory list, and free tires, service, repairs.......all come along for the ride........probably even the chaffuer.

[58L-Y8]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

The above show how crazy expensive a White automobile was.........More than a Packard Twin Six, and double a Cadillac V-8. Makes one ponder why a guy would buy a four, when a twelve with a better dealer network was available.......and more prestigious at the time?

Ed:

Even during the early decades, there was brand loyalty developing, especially for the prestige, luxury makes.  As with other aspects of their lives, the selection of a White 4-45 touring by Rubay was displaying their discernment when choosing a quality motorcar.  There is a good likelihood your Whites were purchased by individuals who had exclusively owned Whites from the initial steam-powered years,   When the White cars were no longer available, moved onto Pierce-Arrow, Locomobile, Marmon, McFarlan, or Cummingham.   

Steve

[edinmass]

If you were a Ohio or Cleveland resident, it makes sense to own one that is local.........

[edinmass]

White #2 is apart in the front end. It's totally different, it is smaller in dimensions and interestingly has brass hardware and brass adjusters, the White number one was all steel. This front end is definitely lighter and earlier. Photos tonight or tomorrow. Everything so far has been poorly serviced and loose. Incorrect bushings installed sometime in days gone by. Wheel bearings in front were shot.............typical old car. Felt wheel bearing seals were missing. More later.....

Edited October 13, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[George K]

On 10/10/2021 at 7:45 PM, edinmass said:

George, please ID the source....and edition if magazine. Thanks.

 

Interesting that it states two years ago, we committed to a four........that would be sometime in 1914.........which makes sense with the 1914 & 1915 engine casting dates. Best guess is war production cut into the speed that they developed the 16 valve.

 

 

Going in a better direction! 👍👍👍

Ed, I contacted the seller and got the response today. The Century magazine. That’s all I received.

[Terry Harper]

I found Ed's Tractor Mechanic working on a Ford & Pierce Arrow... around the  11.27 mark.... could be a training film. (LOL)

 

 

 

[edinmass]

Here is the White #2 front end. It’s about 40 percent smaller all the way around compared to the 1917 car. The front right spindle was stamped 40............in reference to the 4-45 car I surmise. You can see the brass trim and hardware in the photo, there is more of it, but it’s in the hot washer. Wheel bearings were TERRIBLE.......worst I have ever removed from a car. New king pin bushings and bearing were ordered today, and arrive tomorrow. Just a quick spin on the lathe, and running a reamer through them, and the front end will be like new. Phil is also attacking the drag link, tie bar, tie rods, and getting ready to pull the steering box cover off to clean and replace the lubricant. The tires are at least fifty years old, and in very poor condition, so poor, we won’t road test the car until they are replaced. I called Coker, for all things tires pre war........and out of stock.........yes, they have no inventory for this car.......35 X 5 , but we did find a set somewhere else. Didn’t want to drop 5k yet........but with no supply until at least May of next year.........couldn’t wait. So the car has new sneakers.........I looked all over Hershey for a early 12 volt horn........didn’t find anything I liked. After three days on the hunt, I found a decent of the era tail light to replace the 20’s truck unit on the car now. The list on number two is very similar to car number one........only difference is this car has been poked and hacked at. Three steps forward, one step back. We will keep pounding ahead. Too much to report, and photos are harder to come by, as most work is done at Phil’s house. See more below on the next post, to document this car, and to date it. Notice the bearing races for the king pins.....marked White. The balls are 1/2 inch, and are all being replaced, along with all the other front end components that are showing wear.