The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida

[edinmass]

Maybe no 6-60’s listed in 1916........but there is a claim to be one Firetruck and one car, which I don’t have photos of yet. 

Edited October 3, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

10 hours ago, George K said:

One more darn 1915 list. White 45 132-1/2. And it does list a 6-60 so my statement was wrong as they did offer 6-60 in 1915. Still none 1916.

Just shows most of what is published is inaccurate at best, fiction at worst. I’m working it backwards from actual cars found and deciphered.

Edited October 4, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Here are two photos of a 1916 White 4-45 GED touring car. It’s a very similar dash to my 1917. Same steering wheel headlight and ignition switch, speedo, amp guage, circuit breaker, ect........all almost IDENTICAL to my big 1917. The new hard top White is totally different and earlier in style than the 16 45 or the 17 16 valve. Lending credence that the hard top is more 14-15 than 16-17. One small step forward, three backward.

[edinmass]

Here are some shots of the second White........older style dash, five spoke wheel(1916-1917 cars only appear to have a four spoke wheel), different Delco ignition and battery configuration, pressurized fuel tank, brass cowl vent hardware, dual spark plug head, ect......everything points to a earlier style dash, gauges, switches, ect........ the more you study the car, the more it looks like a 1915 or earlier type. Take your time and compare the photos......and remember the 1916 4-45 GED is almost identical to the untrained eye to the 1917 car.

Edited October 4, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[George K]

22 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Here are some shots of the second White........older style dash, five spoke wheel(1916-1917 cars only appear to have a four spoke wheel), different Delco ignition and battery configuration, pressurized fuel tank, brass cowl vent hardware, dual spark plug head, ect......everything points to a earlier style dash, gauges, switches, ect........ the more you study the car, the more it looks like a 1915 or earlier type. Take your time and compare the photos......and remember the 1916 4-45 GED is almost identical to the untrained eye to the 1917 car.

Your wheelbase is 132-1/2 or?

[edinmass]

12 minutes ago, George K said:

Your wheelbase is 132-1/2 or?

 

No clue.....yet. Haven’t had a chance to measure it. I literally only spent fifteen minutes looking over the car in person. I will try and get Phil to measure it, but his wife is not well and he is busy taking care of her this week. We haven’t even pulled up the seat cushions, and looked in the under seat storage areas that we were told had factory tools and such. 
 

To be honest....the car is so strange that the wheelbase may not actually much help in making an ID, but it’s worth a try. It’s way too big for a 30hp chassis. Maybe it’s a 3/4 ton truck frame.........we will pull the rear wheel bearings ASAP to see what the bearings are marked as, it seems to be a different/earlier rear end......by Phil’s eye.

Edited October 4, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[George K]

36 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

No clue.....yet. Haven’t had a chance to measure it. I literally only spent fifteen minutes looking over the car in person. I will try and get Phil to measure it, but his wife is not well and he is busy taking care of her this week. We haven’t even pulled up the seat cushions, and looked in the under seat storage areas that we were told had factory tools and such. 
 

To be honest....the car is so strange that the wheelbase may not actually much help in making an ID, but it’s worth a try. It’s way too big for a 30hp chassis. Maybe it’s a 3/4 ton truck frame.........we will pull the rear wheel bearings ASAP to see what the bearings are marked as, it seems to be a different/earlier rear end......by Phil’s eye.

Cool, thanks.

[oldcarfudd]

Ed, if you bring that car to an HCCA national tour as a 1915, you'll be welcomed with open arms.  Your only problem with other drivers on the tour will be wiping their drool off your original paint!

 

Gil Fitzhugh, Morristown, NJ

[yachtflame]

On 5/29/2021 at 4:44 PM, edinmass said:

 

I have never had too much Crown Royal so that I couldn’t still lay down on the ground and hold myself from falling off the face of the earth. It’s been close a few times........but I managed to keep my grip.

So Ed, when you come by to help sort out my ‘30 LaSalle, I’ll finally open the bottle of Crown Royal that my boss, Roy Cohn gave me as a present in 1982. He was pleased that I got his yacht to NYC in time for a meeting on the Hudson with a then famous Mob Boss that he was representing. I put the bottle in a trunk and forgot about it till a year or so ago. I’m not a Whiskey drinker though Barbara is, so it’s been in hiding for a long time!
We’ll see who gets to it first! 😱

[edinmass]

Thanks Gil.......I’m comfortable that it isn’t a 17. And a 16 doesn’t make much sense. The casting date is BIG, and up front and easy to see as soon as you open the passenger side hood. I think the other dual plug car that’s been in the club fifty years also helps cement in the date........but as we all know, never say never. I’ll put together a file showing all the different cars, and possible heritage pointing to the year of 15. Since the club uses casting dates as an acceptable drop dead number on Fords, it’s gonna be logical to let this fly right through......assuming anyone really asks for data. To be honest, the look of my 17 is so unusual, I doubt too many would complain about that one either......as long as I’m not speeding around and ruffling feathers. 

[edinmass]

5 minutes ago, yachtflame said:

So Ed, when you come by to help sort out my ‘30 LaSalle, I’ll finally open the bottle of Crown Royal that my boss, Roy Cohn gave me as a present in 1982. He was pleased that I got his yacht to NYC in time for a meeting on the Hudson with a then famous Mob Boss that he was representing. I put the bottle in a trunk and forgot about it till a year or so ago. I’m not a Whiskey drinker though Barbara is, so it’s been in hiding for a long time!
We’ll see who gets to it first! 😱

 

It’s tomorrow afternoon or nothing.....call me around nine. Time is very short. And I still need time with mother and sister. Ed

[edinmass]

I forgot to mention........and it’s possible that it’s an important clue.........the casting date of May 8 1915 on the block is in a different place than any of the other White cars I have seen. Every car manufacturer I have ever seen over the years was always very consistent with where the date tag was placed when pouring the blocks.......can’t help but wonder why the one on my car is in such a strange location.......hell, it’s not even square to the block.........almost like it was done at the last second......or as an afterthought. Last night I was pondering that the chassis may be old leftovers hanging around the factory, the motor tossed in it as a somewhat test or engineering platform, is it a leftover 45hp body? The mechanical differences and early date codes matching the town car make it seem unlikely that it’s a leftover body on a later chassis. The more I think about it, the more I realize we are unlikely to get a clear answer........maybe we need a few more unknown cars from overseas or still hidden away in barns to add to the base of knowledge. 

[George K]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

I forgot to mention........and it’s possible that it’s an important clue.........the casting date of May 8 1915 on the block is in a different place than any of the other White cars I have seen. Every car manufacturer I have ever seen over the years was always very consistent with where the date tag was placed when pouring the blocks.......can’t help but wonder why the one on my car is in such a strange location.......hell, it’s not even square to the block.........almost like it was done at the last second......or as an afterthought. Last night I was pondering that the chassis may be old leftovers hanging around the factory, the motor tossed in it as a somewhat test or engineering platform, is it a leftover 45hp body? The mechanical differences and early date codes matching the town car make it seem unlikely that it’s a leftover body on a later chassis. The more I think about it, the more I realize we are unlikely to get a clear answer........maybe we need a few more unknown cars from overseas or still hidden away in barns to add to the base of knowledge. 

Ed, White cars are elusive and esoteric. Great quality materials and overbuilt

I have recently had experience with Locomobiles. The records survived intact. All cars from #1- 33,324. Clear and exact. Bonhams auctioned a 1916 Locomobile as a 1915. I have a dog in that fight so I contacted Rupert Banner at Bonhams. Explained the oversight and was disappointed by their response. M5 Locomobile is 1915  M6 is 1916. The seller convinced the auction house that literature dated 1915 proved that against Locomobile records it was a 1915 car. The rub is the difference of calendar year to fiscal year. 1914 catalog show 1915 cars. This is Locomobile went roughly June to June with catalogs showing the next years model. Some 1916 cars which were built in 1915 but accounted for in factory model and serial #’s as 1916. Very much like today’s 2022 available now. This pollutes the true 1915 market records with 1916 model. Do you believe this is ok. We both know the reason. All records exist because of accounting departments doing their jobs for $’s Thanks George.

[1912Staver]

There is a good chance the Delco dash switch will have a stamped in date code. That might help date the bodywork.

[edinmass]

29 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

There is a good chance the Delco dash switch will have a stamped in date code. That might help date the bodywork.

 

I will check when I get back south.......👍👍👍

[edinmass]

George........... short but quick and true story. The one of top collectors in the world recently asked me to get his son a “brass” Pierce arrow. He probably has 400 cars and one of the top five collections in the hemisphere. I asked him if it had to be a HCCA car......... he has 20 of them himself including some that are well over 100 hp. His exact response..........

 

 

” I don’t care, it really doesn’t matter much anymore, because most of the best tours are privately run and you can take anything you want on them.”

 

His words, not mine.

 

i’m not looking to rain on anyone’s parade, the CCCA keeps adding cars that aren’t that great and shouldn’t be on the list. The justification is the everybody should be included mentality. The membership continues to decline. It’s getting that way for all the organizations now. We had the era of the VMCCA, AACA, CCCA, and the single marque clubs....... with exception of the AACA(Probably will be the last man standing, and the long term center of the hobby.) ,  they are becoming much less relevant because of the concours car show world. The hobby shifts and evolves. Hell some people consider car auctions car shows! People pay all sorts of money to go to Mecum or Barrett because they find it entertaining along the lines of a casino. Not only will I not pay to go into one, I wont attend one if you paid me. One more thing our Internet car clubs, and they are also changing the face of the hobby. I think the date number from 1915 to 1916 is about to change in a different direction than most people realize. The Modoc tour, Mozart tour, Colorado Grand, and so many others now take any “cool” car that people want to participate with. Dates are falling out of favor.......the drivability of any particular car on modern roads is what really calls out value today. For years no one would buy a Crane Simplex or late series Winton......... try to buy one today, nobody is selling. Late Loco’s have found new fans......all driving them on the private tours..........I see it all the time because of the car world I work in. The era of “big nickel” is almost upon us.........fast, large, imposing, and relatively inexpensive and affordable. Buy them now, while you can.

Edited October 4, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

19 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

If someone can come up with a wiring diagram for a dual valve four with twin plugs and the Bosch ignition we should be 90 percent of the way to making a decent ID on the platform.....I think the true answer will show itself. It’s the most likely item that is and was generally available to the aftermarket repair shops. Parking lights in a White car diagram would also help.........thoughts? 

 

I looked though my archives. Wiring diagram Books for Remy and Delco. None for Bosch. Hey we never know what will show up at Hershey though. Dandy Dave!  

[edinmass]

14 minutes ago, Dandy Dave said:

I looked though my archives. Wiring diagram Books for Remy and Delco. None for Bosch. Hey we never know what will show up at Hershey though. Dandy Dave!  

 

I have a bunch of really complete and detailed books, and they show nothing. Thanks, Ed.

[edinmass]

Phil has given me an update, the brakes on White number two are smaller and partially different than the 1917 car. He’s going to check the transmission to see if it is in fact an overdrive, or a four speed with direct being fourth gear. Time will tell.......

Edited October 4, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Another note if anyone is interested......I have White truck production numbers detailed down to the month from about 1910 to 1920, unfortunately it doesn’t cover any cars. 

[edinmass]

White #2 update:

 

We got the broken clutch fork fixed and welded correctly. Came out perfect. It pays to use a very talented welder. The clutch linkage is all back in place, as original, installed correctly.......which it was NOT. Dropped the flywheel cover........found ground up clutch.....big time. Typical tractor mechanic hacks.......they couldn’t figure out the White clutch......which is not easy. Anyway, Phil has it driving and shifting correctly......but it’s gonna need a reline  of the dual disk clutch. I’m sure when we get it apart we will find more tractor mechanic hacks along the way. Right now, we plan on continuing to sort and figure the car out. The clutch can come out in about three hours. The hardest thing doing the clutch job is packing the friction disks......and hoping they don’t get lost in shipping to Fort Wayne Clutch........my go to guys for all clutch jobs. Phil is making a wish list, to do list, and a few other observations. This car since it’s running will be done differently than the last car. We will break it down into smaller weekend projects.

Edited October 4, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[George K]

7 hours ago, edinmass said:

George........... short but quick and true story. The one of top collectors in the world recently asked me to get his son a “brass” Pierce arrow. He probably has 400 cars and one of the top five collections in the hemisphere. I asked him if it had to be a HCCA car......... he has 20 of them himself including some that are well over 100 hp. His exact response..........

 

 

” I don’t care, it really doesn’t matter much anymore, because most of the best tours are privately run and you can take anything you want on them.”

 

His words, not mine.

 

i’m not looking to rain on anyone’s parade, the CCCA keeps adding cars that aren’t that great and shouldn’t be on the list. The justification is the everybody should be included mentality. The membership continues to decline. It’s getting that way for all the organizations now. We had the era of the VMCCA, AACA, CCCA, and the single marque clubs....... with exception of the AACA(Probably will be the last man standing, and the long term center of the hobby.) ,  they are becoming much less relevant because of the concours car show world. The hobby shifts and evolves. Hell some people consider car auctions car shows! People pay all sorts of money to go to Mecum or Barrett because they find it entertaining along the lines of a casino. Not only will I not pay to go into one, I wont attend one if you paid me. One more thing our Internet car clubs, and they are also changing the face of the hobby. I think the date number from 1915 to 1916 is about to change in a different direction than most people realize. The Modoc tour, Mozart tour, Colorado Grand, and so many others now take any “cool” car that people want to participate with. Dates are falling out of favor.......the drivability of any particular car on modern roads is what really calls out value today. For years no one would buy a Crane Simplex or late series Winton......... try to buy one today, nobody is selling. Late Loco’s have found new fans......all driving them on the private tours..........I see it all the time because of the car world I work in. The era of “big nickel” is almost upon us.........fast, large, imposing, and relatively inexpensive and affordable. Buy them now, while you can.

Things do change. Never been a club guy. Thanks for the insight. You mentioned you have all the truck records. How detailed are they? Do they list engines. My thought is find the first installation of of the 16V4 in anything would help. In one of posts of the engine brochure there was a passage stating the two years ago White made a commitment to keep 4 cylinder engines. Must be connected to 16V4 history. Best George.

[edinmass]

The list is by serial number.......not engine number, broken down to each month. No engines, or truck size, just numbers. When I gets south, I will post it.

[mike6024]

August 21, 1915

 

 A STATEMENT from THE WHITE COMPANY to MOTOR CAR BUYERS IN view of the confusing market which confronts motor car pur-chasers, many are looking to this Company for an expression of its attitude toward the innovations in mechanical design and new price levels now being announced. We therefore take this occasion to state our beliefs and purposes, which are based on fourteen successful years of experience. We believe the four-cylinder motor is to be the standard and ultimate type. We therefore consider it wiser to continue perfecting this type of motor, which we have already spent years in developing, than to step abruptly into a field of design that is new to the entire automobile industry, and thus impose an experiment upon our customers. With reference to price, the White policy will be as it always has been—to build cars to the White 'standard rather than to a standard that would make a cheap price possible. Materials and labor cost more now than ever before—consequently, lower prices must and do indicate com-promised quality. We hold it as a first. principle of our duty to purchasers of White Cars to make a product that will give maximum service with the least amount of attention and of expense for operation and maintenance; a product of such quality and approved construction that it will command high value at any time the owner may wish to dispose of it; in all, to build motor cars which the owners can truly regard as investments. White policy will always be governed by consideration for the ultimate service-value of White Cars. We will not take part in the spec-tacular methods, adopted solely for sales stimulation, which prevail in the motor car market at the present. time. In short, the stability of policy which has always meant security to White owners will continue. We neither consider it good business nor do we find it necessary to repudiate the design- nor to depreciate, un-naturally, the value of cars which have been purchased from us, by making frequent radical changes in design and'price. THE WHITE COMPANY CLEVELAND

 

(This is the official date of this advertisement stating a commitment to the Four Cylinder)

 

I been reading the 1915 Scientific American. Fascinating. Here is the link if you want to look at it. Lots of stuff on the WWI effort.

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=_GA1AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA173#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Hi Ed, there used to be a reasonably late White up here in this part of the world. A very nice touring. I haven't seen it for some time so I suspect it has probably left the area. It was possibly a Washington State car however I seem to remember it was from B.C. Not the older one on Vancouver Island, a 1915 or 1916 similar to your new one. Does it ring a bell ?

[edinmass]

1 minute ago, 1912Staver said:

Hi Ed, there used to be a reasonably late White up here in this part of the world. A very nice touring. I haven't seen it for some time so I suspect it has probably left the area. It was possibly a Washington State car however I seem to remember it was from B.C. Not the older one on Vancouver Island, a 1915 or 1916 similar to your new one. Does it ring a bell ?

Yup......a 4-45 of 1916. Here it is..........owner is a nice guy, and has been helpful with me in making identifications of other cars.

[edinmass]

Ok, here is the page from the 1917 16V4 catalog from White Motor Car Company.....read the ignition line.........Magneto ONLY! Well, my white number  two is a battery/magneto combination unit.......It’s getting obvious that the number two car isn’t a 1917.......defined by White. Never mind all the other mechanical differences. 
 

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

That would be it ! Thanks. 

Greg

[edinmass]

Disaster Strikes..........White Number Two..........shit hits the fan!

 

Well, tonight while driving in the car to go to the hardware store to get supplies to fix a broken water pipe in the kitchen.........so the house is in a huge mess, and I leave for Hershey in a few hours, and the wife is still pissed off about my 14 day western trip without her...........don’t know why she is upset, I told her about it in day two when I was out in New Mexico.............she overheard me telling Phil to leave White number one alone, and concentrate on fixing White number two. 
 

PROBLEM- she just found out about White number two while I was on the phone.......must have slipped my mind I bought the car......well, I can tell you she was in the Navy for six years, she can’t cook, she can’t clean, but she sure can swear like a sailor! She is now not talking to me..........yup, I’m enjoying the quiet! Sure hope she cools down by Friday or the drive from Massachusetts to Florida it’s going to be very long..........

Edited October 5, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

Ed, if you need a break on the trip you can always stop in Aiken and pound on fenders with me for a while!  I have a good supply of Woodford Reserve. 
dave s 

[Larry Schramm]

I might have missed it, but are you looking for wiring diagrams for a White car?  I have a couple of White wiring diagrams in one of the electrical books that I have.  Let me know and I can post the diagrams.

[edinmass]

Larry, I have the 1917 Diagram, showing a magneto only four plug system. We are looking for any 1914-1917 White diagram showing battery/magneto with dual spark plugs (8 total).............From what I am seeing, I don’t think we will find anything. The eight plug system uses a Bosch Dual -Twin Spark 4 unit...........Best, Ed.

Edited October 5, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

She’s very upset.....worst in fifteen years........I need help please.....send an emergency supply! I’m down to my last three nips!

[edinmass]

38 minutes ago, SC38DLS said:

Ed, if you need a break on the trip you can always stop in Aiken and pound on fenders with me for a while!  I have a good supply of Woodford Reserve. 
dave s 

To quote a famous movie line.......”You’re gonna need a bigger bottle!”

[95Cardinal]

[edinmass]

The August 15 1915 announcement was three months before my block was poured. Since truck engines at the time were almost exclusively four’s, I wonder if that figured into their decision making. The 4-45 truck engine was in production for over a decade unchanged......a few have told me even longer. Maybe the logic was to keep to just one basic engine design........was the dual valve thought to have a future in the truck world? With that early announcement of discontinuing the six.........it makes sense they would have tested the 4 valve engine to their satisfaction. 1915 makes even more sense now............

[SC38dls]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

She’s very upset.....worst in fifteen years........I need help please.....send an emergency supply! I’m down to my last three nips!

If you think she’s mad now wait until she finds out about the third & forth Great White’s ! 😳

[George K]

Can’t help. But this might cheer you up. Hopefully readable.From a book The Gasoline Automobile  by Hobbs . Found this in the 1919 edition. I didn’t see it in the 1915 edition. 

[edinmass]

Thanks George, I posted the White photos in my original thread, taken from the shop manual. People have been very generous by sending me stuff......more than you could imagine. I think the odds of finding much new stuff that is helpful is small. I still think that electrical diagrams are the best bet........and there is no guarantee that if one shows up, it will actually be accurate with the diagram or date. The August 15, 1915 statement is the biggest help.......they made their decision to go to only fours........and they wouldn’t have done that until the had an engine they thought was a winner......and having been extensively tested. I’m comfortable that what has been posted will get the car in to HCCA events without any problem. Interestingly, it’s only one tour every few years that I will be close enough to the “restricted date national tours” they do, so 95 percent of all driving and club events were never at risk........I didn’t buy the car because of any particular date........I bought it because I like it, it’s one hell of a machine, they run and drive fantastic, and fill the exact void in my garage and collection that I was looking to fill. I was fantastically surprised with the first car’s performance, and I’m certain I will  be with White number to also........does anything else matter? 

[Larry Schramm]

9 hours ago, edinmass said:

Larry, I have the 1917 Diagram, showing a magneto only four plug system. We are looking for any 1914-1917 White diagram showing battery/magneto with dual spark plugs (8 total).............From what I am seeing, I don’t think we will find anything. The eight plug system uses a Bosch Dual -Twin Spark 4 unit...........Best, Ed.

 

I tried, but the diagrams do not have what you are looking for.