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The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida


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20 hours ago, edinmass said:


You don’t see 1928 DV-32’s in the Stutz listing either......and there are two and possibly three of them running  around. A list made in the 70’s and 80’s isn’t going to be definitive. Beverly was a close friend and I wrote and published along with providing  research to her.  Here is a library listing for the HCFI automotive research library, listing the 16 Valve Four in 1914...........since my car is identical to the town car, I’m comfortable with calling it a 1915 also. I think it’s definitive that the HCCA’s own foundation research library has a 1914 16 Valve Four piece of literature in it that the engine was announced and used......and the casting date nails it down also. The Zenith carb listing shows application and engineering info for 1915. It eliminates the question of when the engine was available.......who would list and make parts for something that doesn’t exist? 

 

 

21520402-EF64-46A6-9D87-1D97A510B213.png

I can see a tell about this list. 1914 truck. Are the engines in these 1915 cars from a truck? If so did the factory install them or are the just re powered by owners.

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The town car is definitely as built and delivered. The truck? Who knows, best guess is it’s right as the story was it’s still on the original farm. I think it was so easy for White to toss anything together that the customer wanted they just did it. Also, using up out of date engines would be easy in trucks......they hardly ever changed back before WWII. The body on my second White is definitely much more in the “normal high end range” compared to my 1917 car. The doors are heavier, larger, and overall much more massive. 
 

Look at all the truck chassis White built at the same time........take 1915-1919. 3/4 ton, 1 ton, 1 1/4 ton, 1 1/2 ton, 2 ton, 3 ton, 5 ton..........hell, it was insane. 1 1/2 ton trucks could be single or dual rear wheel. I have seen at least one 1 ton with dual rear wheels. The permutations of what they could build was almost endless. My 1917 frame is most certainly a car frame......but it’s as heavy as a 3/4 to 1 ton truck frame. The 1917 White is HEAVY, and you can feel it in the trailer like it’s a Super Eight Limo. The White cars are built like a truck.......they were meant to be serviced and designed to never break. Working on them for a few hours, and you always come out impressed with what they built back in the day.

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1 minute ago, mike6024 said:

White 1914.jpg


There are two versions of this folder......the one above is in the HCCA foundation library. As you can see, it’s dated 1914. Two engines are known to have 1914 casting dates. I have not seen a 16V4 with a 1917 casting date yet.......all are 1914 to 1916 so far. 

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8 hours ago, edinmass said:

The permutations of what they could build was almost endless

 

This was very typical of the early truck industry - it was not a mass assembly line industry. Trucks were tailored to meet the customer's needs and those needs varied considerably. Not to mention regional preferences - many early truck manufacturers were regional as opposed to national in regards to market focus for just that reason. Kenworth comes to mind) Even the early Ford trucks were available as a custom built item.  If you think about it in the terms of fleets it makes sense since, as a manufacturer, you where more apt to sell a dozen or more of one specific configuration to one customer. Its still somewhat like that today though on a far, far, more limited scale in regards to customization.

 

I have never seen any White sales figures but what surprises me is that they continued to make automobiles as long as they did. Its an amazing history when you think about it. White seemed to be  a mavrick off on thier own which worked very well for them. Hopefully. someone will write a definative history. (If there is one out there I have not seen it) I am sure there is lots of stuff on the trucks but the car side seems lacking not to mention the amazing career of Rollin White.

Edited by Terry Harper (see edit history)
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8 hours ago, mike6024 said:

White 1914.jpg

 

It's disappointing to have to say it, but I've done considerable research at the HCFI and have found numerous errors in their dating of their own material.  This 4-page document itself contains no date.  However, it uses text similar to the White Company's broadly-published advertisement of early 1917, including the exact duplication of the sentence "Two years ago the White Company announced its determination to adhere to the 4-cylinder motor in its passenger car product."  We can safely declare that this document was produced at about the same time as the attached Literary Digest ad.

 

With very few exceptions, the only valid proof for provenance research is period material that is dated.  Below are two more dated items related to the introduction of the 16 Valve 4 engine to the market. 

 

1917-05-26_LiteraryDigest.jpg

 

1916-12-10_BaltimoreSun.jpg

 

1917-01-07_NYTimes.jpg

Edited by StanleyRegister
changed to "Below are two more" and spaced images (see edit history)
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39 minutes ago, Terry Harper said:

 

This was very typical of the early truck industry - it was not a mass assembly line industry. Trucks were tailored to meet the customer's needs and those needs varied considerably. Not to mention regional preferences - many early truck manufacturers were regional as opposed to national in regards to market focus for just that reason. Kenworth comes to mind) Even the early Ford trucks were available as a custom built item.  If you think about it in the terms of fleets it makes sense since, as a manufacturer, you where more apt to sell a dozen or more of one specific configuration to one customer. Its still somewhat like that today though on a far, far, more limited scale in regards to customization.

 

I have never seen any White sales figures but what surprises me is that they continued to make automobiles as long as they did. Its an amazing history when you think about it. White seemed to be  a mavrick off on thier own which worked very well for them. Hopefully. someone will write a definative history. (If there is one out there I have not seen it) I am sure there is lots of stuff on the trucks but the car side seems lacking not to mention the amazing career of Rollin White.

Here’s a snapshot of their books in 1917C097374A-7FF4-463C-B3CF-52AFB420B225.jpeg.c269b114460f30af58af7a74825c9f4e.jpeg

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37 minutes ago, StanleyRegister said:

 

It's disappointing to have to say it, but I've done considerable research at the HCFI and have found numerous errors in their dating of their own material.  This 4-page document itself contains no date.  However, it uses text similar to the White Company's broadly-published advertisement of early 1917, including the exact duplication of the sentence "Two years ago the White Company announced its determination to adhere to the 4-cylinder motor in its passenger car product."  We can safely declare that this document was produced at about the same time as the attached Literary Digest ad.

 

With very few exceptions, the only valid proof for provenance research is period material that is dated.  Below are two more dated items related to the introduction of the 16 Valve 4 engine to the market. 

 

1917-05-26_LiteraryDigest.jpg

 

1916-12-10_BaltimoreSun.jpg

 

1917-01-07_NYTimes.jpg

This ad is from June 1917. The ad contains a typo in the text 6 should be 16.18F09551-2A39-4B2E-8CDC-7736D5D122A2.jpeg.6b1ecf7349cf628efa2f13043f89e37c.jpeg

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20 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

FREE DELIVERY (to Hershey) of the next addition to the WHITE Fleet, Didn't Teddy Roosevelt have one? 

 

 

DSCF8397.JPG

DSCF8398.JPG

That would have brought at least $5 bucks at the Hudson Valley Old Time Power Asso. auction a few weeks ago. Maybe $10 if some poor old country boy figured he wasn't breaking the bank... What a deal. And free delivery too. Jump on it Ed. Dandy Dave!

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With the exception of the AC Plug ad, I have the other posted material. I have an extensive pile acquired over the last 18 months, most from nice members here sending it my way from the first car. It’s amazing what can be found on the White company. Cleveland was a huge manufacturing hub, and many people made an effort to preserve much of that history. Peerless, White, Stearns, Winton, and a bunch of others were manufactured in the city, and the corresponding companies they used as suppliers also flourished. My first car, the seven passenger conforms to all the 1917 type literature issues from about September 16 on. The new car is totally different in chassis, body (style not offered), components, dash, Ext, Ext ect. The company made 45 hp cars as well as the 6-60 and when one looks at it critically, I think the company decided to quit auto manufacturing.......and then reversed themselves. I think the 16V4 was probably a back burner or slow roll project........from war work and trucks. The platform by late 16 or early 17 took off.......according to records just over 1000 engines were manufactured, and I have seen photos and survivors with numbers high enough to think the numbers of engines quoted are correct. Question to ponder is why are there only five engines that are in fours cars and one stand alone that survive from those numbers. A hot rod engine with this much horsepower and a four speed over drive should have been popular with the speedster crowd after the war. The White motor as making more hp than 99 percent of the auto world...........he’ll, it’s still fast today. The Stutz Bearcat was making fifteen horsepower LESS. The 45 HP cars are not particularly prolific in survival rates considering the numbers built. After the steam cars ended, White only built cars as a sideline.......truck production was MUCH more lucrative. Since the old man White bankrolled the body companies for both cars and trucks, and went on to buy them out, by the time WWI was in full swing.........they had acquired both body suppliers......Rubay and Kuntz.

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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It has been written and rumored that much of the 1917 production went to the US military. Here is one car, that made its way to the US Nancey and a Navy base.........interesting paint. And only the US government could afford to buy a monster like this one for 5200 bucks. The Franco American Tour also used White trucks and cars...........the tour was over two thousand miles, and done to prove the value and abilities of White vehicles. They didn’t have a single break down for the entire trip..........

 

On the photo below, we have a few interesting details.......the White script on the radiator, the flag holder on the radiator neck, and a cloth winter front to keep the car warm......the radiators are so large the cars never really warm up fully. 

 

4E71B72D-2938-445C-823B-3E819C3FC1ED.png

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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There are several great books done on the Cleveland car companies......mostly done in the 60’s and 70’s. I don’t have them up north, but they go into great detail on the car production and industrial vehicle production of the city. I will post photos of the books when I get back south. Peerless, Stearns, Winton, and others shared many of the body building companies that were around the area. They are worthwhile reading if you want to understand how the turn of the century industrialized cities went from horses to modern transportation.

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13 hours ago, edinmass said:

With the exception of the AC Plug ad, I have the other posted material. I have an extensive pile acquired over the last 18 months, most from nice members here sending it my way from the first car. It’s amazing what can be found on the White company. Cleveland was a huge manufacturing hub, and many people made an effort to preserve much of that history. Peerless, White, Stearns, Winton, and a bunch of others were manufactured in the city, and the corresponding companies they used as suppliers also flourished. My first car, the seven passenger conforms to all the 1917 type literature issues from about September 16 on. The new car is totally different in chassis, body (style not offered), components, dash, Ext, Ext ect. The company made 45 hp cars as well as the 6-60 and when one looks at it critically, I think the company decided to quit auto manufacturing.......and then reversed themselves. I think the 16V4 was probably a back burner or slow roll project........from war work and trucks. The platform by late 16 or early 17 took off.......according to records just over 1000 engines were manufactured, and I have seen photos and survivors with numbers high enough to think the numbers of engines quoted are correct. Question to ponder is why are there only five engines that are in fours cars and one stand alone that survive from those numbers. A hot rod engine with this much horsepower and a four speed over drive should have been popular with the speedster crowd after the war. The White motor as making more hp than 99 percent of the auto world...........he’ll, it’s still fast today. The Stutz Bearcat was making fifteen horsepower LESS. The 45 HP cars are not particularly prolific in survival rates considering the numbers built. After the steam cars ended, White only built cars as a sideline.......truck production was MUCH more lucrative. Since the old man White bankrolled the body companies for both cars and trucks, and went on to buy them out, by the time WWI was in full swing.........they had acquired both body suppliers......Rubay and Kuntz.

Thoughts about your second car regarding genesis. What’s the wheelbase? All building begins on the basement. Must  be a existing platform. Very expensive to form new rails. Very easy to verify against known model data. As far as coach work anything was possible. The known truck powered by a 16V4 makes sense because trucks always need more horsepower. Gasoline White automobiles have no racing history so the quest for horsepower was likely seeded in utility.

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14 hours ago, edinmass said:

 Question to ponder is why are there only five engines that are in fours cars and one stand alone that survive from those numbers. A hot rod engine with this much horsepower and a four speed over drive should have been popular with the speedster crowd after the war. The White motor as making more hp than 99 percent of the auto world...........he’ll, it’s still fast today. The Stutz Bearcat was making fifteen horsepower LESS. The 45 HP cars are not particularly prolific in survival rates considering the numbers built. 

Ed:

I'd opine the answer is completely in how those cars were consumed by the secondary market.  By the time your White cars were seven to ten years old, regardless of how good they were, they were considered only good for whatever repurposed utility they could be modified to fulfill.  While the speedster crowd certainly used some up, more likely since White trucks had such sterling rugged reputation, any used high-horsepower White cars were automatically converted to trucks, tractors or stationary power for work such as a sawmill.   Practicality and utility were the primary motivators then unlike now for the most part.  Fast forward to the WWII years, a decade plus of hard utility for the converted White cars rendered them ready for replacement.  By then, the long supply of decade old orphan luxury cars gave them their choice of suitable replacement power.

Steve

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Well, George you seem to want to push me.........no worries. I own a 1917 White dual valve, with history back to new. The second car I purchased, it’s totally different than the 1917. There is one short wheelbase 1917 known to exist which I have photos of. Has identical controls, dash, it is virtually indistinguishable from my long wheelbase 1917 car. The second car I purchased, It’s not a 1917 which I can prove. I can’t prove if it’s a 15 or 16, (yet) but it’s one of the two. It really doesn’t matter,  because horseless carriage club uses a casting date on Fords whether to allow them in or not. Applying their test, this car will easily enter the approved list. I have other cars,  that are HCCA accepted already. You seem like you need to try to tear people down,  it’s very sad. I share what I do here to help others. It’s interesting that my 1917 White thread is the number two most read and reacted to post on this site in twenty five years.  You have 77 posts........I have well over 11,000 and the highest rating on the site..........🤔. I’m not full of myself, I live by my reputation and accomplishments. I help others here by phone, email and yes in person. I actually provide free service to people here in need, especially with carburetors and ignition..........many here who I have helped have become valued friends, too many to list. I share my cars, let others drive them, and find great joy in doing so. As a matter of fact, your the only “downer” I have come across on this site.  I will make a long detailed list of the differences between the two cars, along with existing known cars, and the scholarship of it all. I also have photos and detailed history, on three 1915-1916 45 horsepower cars........... Fact of the matter is, for cars built by White.........from 1915 to 1917......they are all in a gray area. Either way, I have two spectacular one off unusual, rare, high horsepower vehicles that are running and driving. I don’t have to tear things down, I build things up. I have serviced countless cars that now run and tour all over the world. I’m certain you’ll keep taking your shots, I will continue on enjoying my cars in ways that you can’t even comprehend. 485 miles in a Duesenberg J last week, a Best of Show in New York at a major invitational Concours in the same week, Hershey this week.......... it’s 51 years since I first attended. Then home for four days, before I attend a Duesenberg tour in the Southeast.......for another 800 miles in a Model J......in four days. Please let me know when you have accomplished one one hundredth of what I have in the car world. It would be nice if you tried to provide proof my new White isn’t a 1917.......and help make the argument for 15 or 16. Either way, it will be on the HCCA national tour in Florida in February....... and probably at Amelia Island in March. The new White will be in Hilton Head and on the Tampa HCCA tour in November.  To all my friends, acquaintances, and fellow unknown members here who send me positive thoughts and encouragement........I thank you all very much. And to those special decent people who have come to visit me and my White in the last 12 months.........Dave C, Dave S, Dave C #2, Larry A, Phil S, George, AJ, Orin, and all the others......thanks for your friendship and encouragement. See you on the road.........In one of my White cars....... and probably two more to come.......who knows, a truck is now probably going to be in the garage also. All this fun and adventure......just from a text message.


 

Photos below taken in the last 14 days.......It’s been a busy September.

 

B833A17B-7D92-4822-8332-2AD8AFFBC2F7.jpeg

8F075F66-5C03-4176-948C-C7F05CAB1802.jpeg

DAF68CB3-154B-4BDF-8053-D2FF14F6ECC0.jpeg

8E8418C6-D372-405B-9CE9-BFF466DEC6B6.jpeg

3B1DB101-04B5-43BC-BA6F-43AC54CCEDCA.jpeg

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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55 minutes ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Ed:

I'd opine the answer is completely in how those cars were consumed by the secondary market.  By the time your White cars were seven to ten years old, regardless of how good they were, they were considered only good for whatever repurposed utility they could be modified to fulfill.  While the speedster crowd certainly used some up, more likely since White trucks had such sterling rugged reputation, any used high-horsepower White cars were automatically converted to trucks, tractors or stationary power for work such as a sawmill.   Practicality and utility were the primary motivators then unlike now for the most part.  Fast forward to the WWII years, a decade plus of hard utility for the converted White cars rendered them ready for replacement.  By then, the long supply of decade old orphan luxury cars gave them their choice of suitable replacement power.

Steve


 

Steve.....

 

cutting a high horsepower car into a truck makes perfect sense. I hadn’t considered it. Also, making it into a truck makes perfect sense as White post war was only a truck manufacturer. The sure were tough enough for commercial usage. One of my long time close friends recently shared with me he has a collection of pre and  post WWII White city buses! Talk about a small area of collecting. White made a interesting V-12 pre war bus engine, which I hope to have an example on a display stand soon.........hope to make the deal at Hershey. Mostly, I enjoy the fun of going from knowing virtually nothing about White early vehicles, to swimming in them up to my neck, all in a short time. I have driven in White vehicles from 1907 to the WWII half tracks. All a unique experience. I’m looking forward to what’s around the corner. Will you be at Hilton Head? Maybe a spin in the White is overdue? It would be fun to see you behind the wheel..........Ed

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14 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

 

4E71B72D-2938-445C-823B-3E819C3FC1ED.png

Every picture tells a story......

 

Ed, as a retired 21 years in Navy Dentist, this picture has me grinning..... looks like the fellas talked the Captain or Admiral’s driver into taking them off base on Liberty. They look thirsty. 

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10 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Ed:
"Mostly, I enjoy the fun of going from knowing virtually nothing about White early vehicles, to swimming in them up to my neck, all in a short time. I have driven in White vehicles from 1907 to the WWII half tracks. All a unique experience. I’m looking forward to what’s around the corner. Will you be at Hilton Head? Maybe a spin in the White is overdue? It would be fun to see you behind the wheel..........Ed"

Ed:

Fascinating White vehicles all, you've given us an education on one of the most obscure aspects of automotive history!   

I'll be lurking around Hershey from Wednesday through Saturday, will make an effort to meet so at least you can put a face with my comments and missives.   I'm always on the prowl for the rare, obscure production and coach-built cars...Hershey never disappoints.   I'd enjoy a spin in that rig, though haven't driven a crash-box transmission since my dad's '46 Willys Jeep decades ago...but I'd try...Whites are rugged.

Steve 

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1 hour ago, John Bloom said:

Every picture tells a story......

 

Ed, as a retired 21 years in Navy Dentist, this picture has me grinning..... looks like the fellas talked the Captain or Admiral’s driver into taking them off base on Liberty. They look thirsty. 

Horney and thirsty! 😳

 

Ed, don’t let the turkeys get you down.  The downer guys on a forum usually only stick around as long as they can get someone frustrated. You are an unbelievable source for everyone on this forum. I would still be stuck in the garage with an electrical problem (as opposed to a minor crash problem) without you taking the time and effort to help me. You are  very generous of your time and knowledge and is something we should all aspire to be on a forum like this and life in general. 
Your thread on the “Great White” (trying to get that to be the official name) and hopefully on “Billy the sequel” have been a highlight during these goofy times we all live in, as Walt’s great thread has been. I’m sure I am not the only one to feel that way. 
dave s 

Edited by SC38DLS (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, edinmass said:

Well, George you seem to want to push me.........no worries. I own a 1917 White dual valve, with history back to new. The second car I purchased, it’s totally different than the 1917. There is one short wheelbase 1917 known to exist which I have photos of. Has identical controls, dash, it is virtually indistinguishable from my long wheelbase 1917 car. The second car I purchased, It’s not a 1917 which I can prove. I can’t prove if it’s a 15 or 16, (yet) but it’s one of the two. It really doesn’t matter,  because horseless carriage club uses a casting date on Fords whether to allow them in or not. Applying their test, this car will easily enter the approved list. I have other cars,  that are HCCA accepted already. You seem like you need to try to tear people down,  it’s very sad. I share what I do here to help others. It’s interesting that my 1917 White thread is the number two most read and reacted to post on this site in twenty five years.  You have 77 posts........I have well over 11,000 and the highest rating on the site..........🤔. I’m not full of myself, I live by my reputation and accomplishments. I help others here by phone, email and yes in person. I actually provide free service to people here in need, especially with carburetors and ignition..........many here who I have helped have become valued friends, too many to list. I share my cars, let others drive them, and find great joy in doing so. As a matter of fact, your the only “downer” I have come across on this site.  I will make a long detailed list of the differences between the two cars, along with existing known cars, and the scholarship of it all. I also have photos and detailed history, on three 1915-1916 45 horsepower cars........... Fact of the matter is, for cars built by White.........from 1915 to 1917......they are all in a gray area. Either way, I have two spectacular one off unusual, rare, high horsepower vehicles that are running and driving. I don’t have to tear things down, I build things up. I have serviced countless cars that now run and tour all over the world. I’m certain you’ll keep taking your shots, I will continue on enjoying my cars in ways that you can’t even comprehend. 485 miles in a Duesenberg J last week, a Best of Show in New York at a major invitational Concours in the same week, Hershey this week.......... it’s 51 years since I first attended. Then home for four days, before I attend a Duesenberg tour in the Southeast.......for another 800 miles in a Model J......in four days. Please let me know when you have accomplished one one hundredth of what I have in the car world. It would be nice if you tried to provide proof my new White isn’t a 1917.......and help make the argument for 15 or 16. Either way, it will be on the HCCA national tour in Florida in February....... and probably at Amelia Island in March. The new White will be in Hilton Head and on the Tampa HCCA tour in November.  To all my friends, acquaintances, and fellow unknown members here who send me positive thoughts and encouragement........I thank you all very much. And to those special decent people who have come to visit me and my White in the last 12 months.........Dave C, Dave S, Dave C #2, Larry A, Phil S, George, AJ, Orin, and all the others......thanks for your friendship and encouragement. See you on the road.........In one of my White cars....... and probably two more to come.......who knows, a truck is now probably going to be in the garage also. All this fun and adventure......just from a text message.


 

Photos below taken in the last 14 days.......It’s been a busy September.

 

B833A17B-7D92-4822-8332-2AD8AFFBC2F7.jpeg

8F075F66-5C03-4176-948C-C7F05CAB1802.jpeg

DAF68CB3-154B-4BDF-8053-D2FF14F6ECC0.jpeg

8E8418C6-D372-405B-9CE9-BFF466DEC6B6.jpeg

3B1DB101-04B5-43BC-BA6F-43AC54CCEDCA.jpeg

Good for you. I only push for the actual data. Mysteries have answers.

Please review as an expert the and provide the wheelbase of second car

Points of interest are scale, hardware, wheel size, cowl shape and so on. 

928A4988-6A23-407F-81A2-72536FD26529.png.403488044b7ed98b9a9eca949a69aa4e.pngE29BE3DB-F88A-4C56-A21B-9C0B0C2DB6C8.jpeg.4f3ca7905e264b5ea8916abce32b56ac.jpeg7D0663BA-C12F-4CCF-9C9A-4D89DD85CA71.jpeg.78909d64a2de5b1aa315ae9a8b346781.jpeg8B818873-32F7-4C33-AF17-091FBD0C7CE1.jpeg.56e5f0f16db585ac7964691f5ee94ea8.jpeg7ACEA078-D1AA-4D72-86E0-E8257CDCE93B.jpeg.3ade16d8a3be50278d677cb28d36dc1a.jpegB5E336AA-3171-425B-BD15-B32210261199.png.bee62d58f9c588aa97bc7bb38f2d5336.png

 

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1 hour ago, edinmass said:

Well, George you seem to want to push me.........no worries. I own a 1917 White dual valve, with history back to new. The second car I purchased, it’s totally different than the 1917. There is one short wheelbase 1917 known to exist which I have photos of. Has identical controls, dash, it is virtually indistinguishable from my long wheelbase 1917 car. The second car I purchased, It’s not a 1917 which I can prove. I can’t prove if it’s a 15 or 16, (yet) but it’s one of the two. It really doesn’t matter,  because horseless carriage club uses a casting date on Fords whether to allow them in or not. Applying their test, this car will easily enter the approved list. I have other cars,  that are HCCA accepted already. You seem like you need to try to tear people down,  it’s very sad. I share what I do here to help others. It’s interesting that my 1917 White thread is the number two most read and reacted to post on this site in twenty five years.  You have 77 posts........I have well over 11,000 and the highest rating on the site..........🤔. I’m not full of myself, I live by my reputation and accomplishments. I help others here by phone, email and yes in person. I actually provide free service to people here in need, especially with carburetors and ignition..........many here who I have helped have become valued friends, too many to list. I share my cars, let others drive them, and find great joy in doing so. As a matter of fact, your the only “downer” I have come across on this site.  I will make a long detailed list of the differences between the two cars, along with existing known cars, and the scholarship of it all. I also have photos and detailed history, on three 1915-1916 45 horsepower cars........... Fact of the matter is, for cars built by White.........from 1915 to 1917......they are all in a gray area. Either way, I have two spectacular one off unusual, rare, high horsepower vehicles that are running and driving. I don’t have to tear things down, I build things up. I have serviced countless cars that now run and tour all over the world. I’m certain you’ll keep taking your shots, I will continue on enjoying my cars in ways that you can’t even comprehend. 485 miles in a Duesenberg J last week, a Best of Show in New York at a major invitational Concours in the same week, Hershey this week.......... it’s 51 years since I first attended. Then home for four days, before I attend a Duesenberg tour in the Southeast.......for another 800 miles in a Model J......in four days. Please let me know when you have accomplished one one hundredth of what I have in the car world. It would be nice if you tried to provide proof my new White isn’t a 1917.......and help make the argument for 15 or 16. Either way, it will be on the HCCA national tour in Florida in February....... and probably at Amelia Island in March. The new White will be in Hilton Head and on the Tampa HCCA tour in November.  To all my friends, acquaintances, and fellow unknown members here who send me positive thoughts and encouragement........I thank you all very much. And to those special decent people who have come to visit me and my White in the last 12 months.........Dave C, Dave S, Dave C #2, Larry A, Phil S, George, AJ, Orin, and all the others......thanks for your friendship and encouragement. See you on the road.........In one of my White cars....... and probably two more to come.......who knows, a truck is now probably going to be in the garage also. All this fun and adventure......just from a text message.


 

Photos below taken in the last 14 days.......It’s been a busy September.

 

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8F075F66-5C03-4176-948C-C7F05CAB1802.jpeg

DAF68CB3-154B-4BDF-8053-D2FF14F6ECC0.jpeg

8E8418C6-D372-405B-9CE9-BFF466DEC6B6.jpeg

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Ed - Great to see that you went down the rabbit hole with Whites just like I did with Coles.  You are absolutely right in what you have presented and I have found those 'lists' in some publications were not completely right.  I probably have the largest repository of dated Cole documentation and actual Cole factory materials and it offer a glimpse into how many of the auto magazines/published articles at the time were not 100% accurate.  If you think about it is not surprising at all as the free flow and ease of access to information was not an easy thing at the time.  Another thing that I have found in Cole's own documentation was that JJ Cole didnt believe in model years and he released everything as a Series and Model.  For example in 1914, Cole released had three different series that were released.  A lot of the big books on history like to do everything by model year so they completely messed up when some Coles were actually released and out.   These smaller very capable high quality manufactures would also produce and modify anything for their customers.  Attached is a blurb saying this from a 1916 Cole bulletin that was the magazine that went to Cole dealers.  Very few of these Cole bulletins are seen elsewhere so the big books that were put together in the 60's-80's didnt have access to this stuff.   Another example is this very long wheelbase Cole 4 person roadster that they built for a customer.   According to all lists, dealer brochures, etc, this car shouldn't have existed, but Cole built it for someone.  My 1923 Cole 2 person Coupe was custom built for JJ Cole Jr. and there is no other Cole model like it at the time.  I can go on with other examples and the documentation but you get the point.  You have some special White's and it is great to see that you have done the research on them to preserve the history and raise the education and awareness on the company.  

 

 

image.png.33b05c69ade593491aae84d26006c981.pngMay be an image of car

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16 hours ago, edinmass said:

With the exception of the AC Plug ad, I have the other posted material. I have an extensive pile acquired over the last 18 months, most from nice members here sending it my way from the first car. It’s amazing what can be found on the White company. Cleveland was a huge manufacturing hub, and many people made an effort to preserve much of that history. Peerless, White, Stearns, Winton, and a bunch of others were manufactured in the city, and the corresponding companies they used as suppliers also flourished. My first car, the seven passenger conforms to all the 1917 type literature issues from about September 16 on. The new car is totally different in chassis, body (style not offered), components, dash, Ext, Ext ect. The company made 45 hp cars as well as the 6-60 and when one looks at it critically, I think the company decided to quit auto manufacturing.......and then reversed themselves. I think the 16V4 was probably a back burner or slow roll project........from war work and trucks. The platform by late 16 or early 17 took off.......according to records just over 1000 engines were manufactured, and I have seen photos and survivors with numbers high enough to think the numbers of engines quoted are correct. Question to ponder is why are there only five engines that are in fours cars and one stand alone that survive from those numbers. A hot rod engine with this much horsepower and a four speed over drive should have been popular with the speedster crowd after the war. The White motor as making more hp than 99 percent of the auto world...........he’ll, it’s still fast today. The Stutz Bearcat was making fifteen horsepower LESS. The 45 HP cars are not particularly prolific in survival rates considering the numbers built. After the steam cars ended, White only built cars as a sideline.......truck production was MUCH more lucrative. Since the old man White bankrolled the body companies for both cars and trucks, and went on to buy them out, by the time WWI was in full swing.........they had acquired both body suppliers......Rubay and Kuntz.

Ed - I have wondered the same thing with the survival rate of Coles.  That big V8 engine (only the Cunningham had a bigger V8) in 1915 on has very low survival rates versus production.  I thought collectors and speedster builders would have loved the platform for having fun but it just wasnt so.  My hypothesis is two parts:

 

1. Many Coles were turned into work trucks and tow trucks.  About 6 of the surviving Coles today were turned back from tow trucks during restoration over the years.  Cole had a very strong chassis and springs as well as the powerful engine so they were perfect for making work trucks

2. The government and military purchased quite a bit of the Cole production at the time.  Also local governments purchased for fire and police as well as I have order acknowledgements and stories about businesses purchasing Cole's for the salesman so that they could get place to place quicker and in style.  See the attached agreement offering the factory and all parts needed to build trucks.  This was probably similar for White.

 

May be an image of 1 person

 

488066652_WarTrucksletter.jpg.982f98a63493d7b14c742e22f3d82071.jpg

3. 

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I’ll post all the literature and information I have on the second car after I get back from Hershey. The hard top car was a design by Rubay, but the body builder is a small shop in Cleveland that I have photos of in production with lots of other cars.........basically a “small regional shop working for the local small carriage trade”.  Kevin, I totally agree with your analysis on the above posts. Sending a PM your way.......Ed.

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6 hours ago, edinmass said:

Well, George you seem to want to push me.........no worries. I own a 1917 White dual valve, with history back to new. The second car I purchased, it’s totally different than the 1917. There is one short wheelbase 1917 known to exist which I have photos of. Has identical controls, dash, it is virtually indistinguishable from my long wheelbase 1917 car. The second car I purchased, It’s not a 1917 which I can prove. I can’t prove if it’s a 15 or 16, (yet) but it’s one of the two. It really doesn’t matter,  because horseless carriage club uses a casting date on Fords whether to allow them in or not. Applying their test, this car will easily enter the approved list. I have other cars,  that are HCCA accepted already. You seem like you need to try to tear people down,  it’s very sad. I share what I do here to help others. It’s interesting that my 1917 White thread is the number two most read and reacted to post on this site in twenty five years.  You have 77 posts........I have well over 11,000 and the highest rating on the site..........🤔. I’m not full of myself, I live by my reputation and accomplishments. I help others here by phone, email and yes in person. I actually provide free service to people here in need, especially with carburetors and ignition..........many here who I have helped have become valued friends, too many to list. I share my cars, let others drive them, and find great joy in doing so. As a matter of fact, your the only “downer” I have come across on this site.  I will make a long detailed list of the differences between the two cars, along with existing known cars, and the scholarship of it all. I also have photos and detailed history, on three 1915-1916 45 horsepower cars........... Fact of the matter is, for cars built by White.........from 1915 to 1917......they are all in a gray area. Either way, I have two spectacular one off unusual, rare, high horsepower vehicles that are running and driving. I don’t have to tear things down, I build things up. I have serviced countless cars that now run and tour all over the world. I’m certain you’ll keep taking your shots, I will continue on enjoying my cars in ways that you can’t even comprehend. 485 miles in a Duesenberg J last week, a Best of Show in New York at a major invitational Concours in the same week, Hershey this week.......... it’s 51 years since I first attended. Then home for four days, before I attend a Duesenberg tour in the Southeast.......for another 800 miles in a Model J......in four days. Please let me know when you have accomplished one one hundredth of what I have in the car world. It would be nice if you tried to provide proof my new White isn’t a 1917.......and help make the argument for 15 or 16. Either way, it will be on the HCCA national tour in Florida in February....... and probably at Amelia Island in March. The new White will be in Hilton Head and on the Tampa HCCA tour in November.  To all my friends, acquaintances, and fellow unknown members here who send me positive thoughts and encouragement........I thank you all very much. And to those special decent people who have come to visit me and my White in the last 12 months.........Dave C, Dave S, Dave C #2, Larry A, Phil S, George, AJ, Orin, and all the others......thanks for your friendship and encouragement. See you on the road.........In one of my White cars....... and probably two more to come.......who knows, a truck is now probably going to be in the garage also. All this fun and adventure......just from a text message.


 

Photos below taken in the last 14 days.......It’s been a busy September.

 

B833A17B-7D92-4822-8332-2AD8AFFBC2F7.jpeg

8F075F66-5C03-4176-948C-C7F05CAB1802.jpeg

DAF68CB3-154B-4BDF-8053-D2FF14F6ECC0.jpeg

8E8418C6-D372-405B-9CE9-BFF466DEC6B6.jpeg

3B1DB101-04B5-43BC-BA6F-43AC54CCEDCA.jpeg

Ed, I didn’t know this is support site. Thought it is an automobile site. My observations are based on what shared on this site. You know how I helped you in PM and data. Because I view your data and conclusions differently is not a downer. It’s how research and scholarship happens. What’s sad is your defensiveness. Still waiting for your expert opinions. 

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Can’t argue with inaccurate and confusing! Running changes, an r & d department assembling and testing ideas and platforms. Sometimes it easier to say what a car is not.......than what it is. My 1917 White has a engine number, chassis number, and a car data-plate number.........all exactly as it should, and numbers can be found in several locations. My second car does not(no car number, no chassis number, no data plate), and it’s probably due to the off brand body. (I have never seen any information on a California top on a white in a factory drawing or offering) 1917 sales catalogs exist, and are around.....and seem rather definitive in what the 1917 cars were offering as standard..........I have never seen a catalog for the years from 1914-1916. They could exist, and if so, would make my dating task easier. Time will tell.......I expect that in six months more information will come to light helping out to make a logical progression. 
 

George......the second car has so many significant differences from what I would call the standard and confirmed offerings as 1917...........such as fuel system(pressurized vs vacuum tank) carburetor brand(Zenith vs White), ignition system brand and dual plug vs single plug, magneto only VS battery and mag, or both,  different steering column and steering box, different dash, different under hood oiling system, different body (The 1917 catalog has ALL production marked as Custom by Rubay), different location of the battery box, and cowl lights and cowl vents which are only found on my seconded car as far as I am aware ............the electrical diagrams for the 1917’s published show all exactly what is on my first car........and nothing anywhere shows what the second car has.......the only similar unit is the 15 Town Car.  I have only spent about fifteen minute with the new car so far in person, I suspect I will find a handful of other differences from the 1917. I haven’t even had a chance to determine the chassis length. What my be the best help in identifying what the thing actually is is the transmission..........the 45 HP cars I am told have fourth as direct, NOT overdrive........not sure if this is fact or not yet.......he’ll, I don’t even know which transmission is in the second car yet.....I haven’t seen it run or drive. Good news is, the split clutch yolk is fixed and will be installed this week.......letting us figure out if the new car even has an overdrive. Some of the transmission accessories look different than the other car.....but that could be chassis or other manufacturing reasons. The only thing I know for certain, the second White doesn’t conform to ANY 1917 material that has been published or brought to my attention. Show me a 1917 working diagram with dual plugs, Bosch ignition, pressurized fuel system, and the different dash, engine controls, steering wheel...........and I will call it a 1917. The only thing I can prove is it’s virtually identical to the 1915 Town Car..........I plan on meeting up with the 15’s car owner at Hershey for more photos and note comparisons. Letting the sun shine on the car is fine......that’s why it’s in an open forum and not hidden away like the majority of people would do.........so here we are.......find some sales catalogs, photos, diagrams, repair manuals, ect that show the dual plugs, Bosch mag, fuel  system....Ect, Ect, Ect...........

 

I’m still trying to work out White car wheel size, style, number of spokes, ect........they seem to also be very inconsistent as to year/application from what I can see.

 

The front seat in the second white has slide locks that allow the front seat  to fold down backwards  to the rear making the car into a bed........wonder if that was a standard item or an option on a California hard top car..........


This is the only White from the let’s say 1915-1918 era that has NO tool boxes on either side, and no battery box in the splash pan. Every other example I have seen so far has them.......

 

All of this reminds me of my 1914 Cadillac, which had the special higher horsepower option.........only one was known to exist ..........till I dug mine up in International Falls........with the high compression heads, special carb, and intake manifold. I had never heard of the bigger option in six years of studying them......got lucky with my find, and had a few of the copper pot Caddy guys talking to themselves........I only found out after I got it home....It’s good to be lucky!......pre WWI cars are always a little strange........like my 1915 T with the electric horn only used for a few weeks. 

 

One last note...... before I ever saw the under hood or the dash of the second White Car, I was told it had an electric fuel pump. Knowing that was incorrect and something I would not tolerate, I located in exact duplicate of the vacuum tank on my first White. After purchasing the car, and seeing the different dashboard and controls, it was obvious it never had a vacuum tank. So anybody who wants a vacuum tank for 1917 White please let me know because I have an extra I don’t need. It’s available for fifty dollars to anyone who can use it.


 

If someone can come up with a wiring diagram for a dual valve four with twin plugs and the Bosch ignition we should be 90 percent of the way to making a decent ID on the platform.....I think the true answer will show itself. It’s the most likely item that is and was generally available to the aftermarket repair shops. Parking lights in a White car diagram would also help.........thoughts? 

 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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I don't want to piss off Ed as I'll need his advice to talk me out of a Springfield P1 and into something more reasonable in a couple years.....I wonder could one possibility be that White took older, left-over castings and re-machined them to accept the 4-valve set up two years later? I don't know what the parts look like to understand if this is even possible.

- Dan.

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Ok George.......explain away why the differences on the second White make it a 1917? Or a 1916? Or a 1915? Certainly all of them can’t be explained off hand...........the body company that I believe did the body/top is a Cleveland shop.......that was in business from 1915 to 1922. They did entire jobs for Stearns, Peerless, Cleveland, Winton, and a bunch of others. I have lots of photos from their shop.......their hardware is identical to my car, as is the beveled side glass and windshield frame set up. One last note.....the radiator on the hard top is different than any other White I have seen...........it’s 100 percent hand made from brass........and the lights, windshield frame and stanchions, lights, and some dash pieces are all brass.

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30 minutes ago, prewarnut said:

I don't want to piss off Ed as I'll need his advice to talk me out of a Springfield P1 and into something more reasonable in a couple years.....I wonder could one possibility be that White took older, left-over castings and re-machined them to accept the 4-valve set up two years later? I don't know what the parts look like to understand if this is even possible.

- Dan.


Dan......I think the issue is White was capable of doing almost anything to use up spare and leftover parts.....four valve blocks are 100 percent different than any other engine made.......and from what family members have told me, they especially liked to make one off cars for family and friends..........and a handful of family cars still remain in their hands. P1’s are much easier.......better documentation........and I personally knew twenty factory guys for many years who mentored me in the hobby. The White will work itself out over time...........I really would like to get my hands on a few 45hp units......it would clear up lots of things.........

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29 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Ok George.......explain away why the differences on the second White make it a 1917? Or a 1916? Or a 1915? Certainly all of them can’t be explained off hand...........the body company that I believe did the body/top is a Cleveland shop.......that was in business from 1915 to 1922. They did entire jobs for Stearns, Peerless, Cleveland, Winton, and a bunch of others. I have lots of photos from their shop.......their hardware is identical to my car, as is the beveled side glass and windshield frame set up. One last note.....the radiator on the hard top is different than any other White I have seen...........it’s 100 percent hand made from brass........and the lights, windshield frame and stanchions, lights, and some dash pieces are all brass.

I believe all that you said. I not trying to explain away anything. I hope I helped with the top situation with the brochure I found and brought to your attention.

I am stuck on the wheelbase. What is it on the second car.

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The top information was first rate and couldn’t be better..........and the catalogue I have in my possession I will post after Hershey pretty much locks it up as to who built it..........the big question? Was it a sample or one off built to show the factory what they could do? The body company was three miles from White..........add in the fact the car was sold new in Oakland? All very strange. This whole car points to a early to mid type experimental chassis/platform. The doors are very thick or deep, and large......to help support the sliding windows.......never seen anything like it on ANY car before, and the only thing even close was a 1923 Lincoln Brunn.  With closed windows the car is weather tight. When you stand in front of the car it breaks all the rules.........also, the top is an integral part of the body and it’s construction..........it’s not removable, and it’s very substantial...........you have to stand in front of this thing and eyeball it............it has a few awkward lines.......but much of it is neat and impressive. A conundrum on wheels. 
 

As far as the wheelbase.....I expect it’s a 45hp chassis..........the question is, did they hav a single standard, or more than one.

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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26 minutes ago, edinmass said:

The top information was first rate and couldn’t be better..........and the catalogue I have in my possession I will post after Hershey pretty much locks it up as to who built it..........the big question? Was it a sample or one off built to show the factory what they could do? The body company was three miles from White..........add in the fact the car was sold new in Oakland? All very strange. This whole car points to a early to mid type experimental chassis/platform. The doors are very thick or deep, and large......to help support the sliding windows.......never seen anything like it on ANY car before, and the only thing even close was a 1923 Lincoln Brunn.  With closed windows the car is weather tight. When you stand in front of the car it breaks all the rules.........also, the top is an integral part of the body and it’s construction..........it’s not removable, and it’s very substantial...........you have to stand in front of this thing and eyeball it............it has a few awkward lines.......but much of it is neat and impressive. A conundrum on wheels. 
 

As far as the wheelbase.....I expect it’s a 45hp chassis..........the question is, did they hav a single standard, or more than one.

One more darn 1915 list. White 45 132-1/2. And it does list a 6-60 so my statement was wrong as they did offer 6-60 in 1915. Still none 1916.

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