The Wandering White Thread - A Custom 1915 Rare White Finds A Good Home In Florida

[edinmass]

George....I don't feel the need to callout a claim. I'm the leading expert on gas White car in existence as far as I know. I own multiple cars, from all eras and don't much care what others think as to its date. The HCCA sales literature they have on hand at the foundation library is dated 1914. So the date shouldn't be even close to any issue. I'm certain the HCCA people won't have an issue with it..........half the T's are bogus on the tours. As well as most of the "same as" year cars that run from 1915 to 1917. I expect to add two more White's to the collection in the near future. One gas, and one steam. I'm only interested in large horsepower cars..........the 35 & 45 units are great cars, but I want more power for safety in todays driving world. The 60 hp six is interesting, and there are a few sitting dorment for over twenty years. I'm gonna try and pry one away even though they are smaller than my 1917 Rubay 7 passenger car. 

 

PS- WHITE CARS ARE NOT TRUCKS. I can say that as I have worked on both cars and trucks, and have driven a Yellowstone bus. The rear ends, front ends, hubs, wheels, spindles, frames, springs, steering box, radiator and support are ALL marked with the word "CAR". See the wheel bearing photo below.........clearly marked car..........I own more sales data and folders than anyone else I have spoken too.......including the surviving family members.......one of which owns more than 8 cars. I can prove it's not a 1917.......and I have serial numbers on all the suriving 16 valve cars. Three of the five are pre 1916.

 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

It is really amazing and very interesting the amount of detailed information you go too on these cars. Fascinating that a bearing would have car marked instead of just a number. The time spent doing the research to get the history and documentation has to be more than the time to sort the vehicle. I enjoyed the trip of the “Great White” and look forward to this one and a couple more. Keep up the good work and please take us all along for the ride. It’s been “Great” fun. 
dave s 

[George K]

12 minutes ago, edinmass said:

George....I don't feel the need to callout a claim. I'm the leading expert on gas White car in existence as far as I know. I own multiple cars, from all eras and don't much care what others think as to its date. The HCCA sales literature they have on hand at the foundation library is dated 1914. So the date shouldn't be even close to any issue. I'm certain the HCCA people won't have an issue with it..........half the T's are bogus on the tours. As well as most of the "same as" year cars that run from 1915 to 1917. I expect to add two more White's to the collection in the near future. One gas, and one steam. I'm only interested in large horsepower cars..........the 35 & 45 units are great cars, but I want more power for safety in todays driving world. The 60 hp six is interesting, and there are a few sitting dorment for over twenty years. I'm gonna try and pry one away even though they are smaller than my 1917 Rubay 7 passenger car. 

Ed, If a club allows a vehicle in their ranks that’s within their purview. My response is regard your statement of 1915. I have researched for my reasons many cars. I can’t find evidence to back 1915/1916 16V4 production. As an expert your should welcome review. All I ask as a fellow research is proof. No matter how hard I squint I still cannot see it.

[58L-Y8]

5 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

Steve, It’s certainly not a Tom Hibbard design like my 1917. Interestingly I met his grandson at a car show last year in Wellington Florida while showing my first White. He immediately recognized it as his grandfather’s work. Referencing it to the first “barrel side“ Duesenberg body. He gave me the heads up on the article in the American Scientific Frontier magazine article on the special awards Tom Hibbard won with the 1917 Rubay body offerings. They called it the first modern and practical design layout for a motor car ever done. Referencing the radiator/hood/cowl/ and light treatment. I have a copy of the article.

Ed:

Certain automobiles are landmarks in design history of which your 1917 White Rubay touring by Tom Hibbard is an example.  We'd be interested to read that American Scientific Frontier magazine article at some point when you have time to scan and share it. 

Steve 

[George K]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

George....I don't feel the need to callout a claim. I'm the leading expert on gas White car in existence as far as I know. I own multiple cars, from all eras and don't much care what others think as to its date. The HCCA sales literature they have on hand at the foundation library is dated 1914. So the date shouldn't be even close to any issue. I'm certain the HCCA people won't have an issue with it..........half the T's are bogus on the tours. As well as most of the "same as" year cars that run from 1915 to 1917. I expect to add two more White's to the collection in the near future. One gas, and one steam. I'm only interested in large horsepower cars..........the 35 & 45 units are great cars, but I want more power for safety in todays driving world. The 60 hp six is interesting, and there are a few sitting dorment for over twenty years. I'm gonna try and pry one away even though they are smaller than my 1917 Rubay 7 passenger car. 

 

PS- WHITE CARS ARE NOT TRUCKS. I can say that as I have worked on both cars and trucks, and have driven a Yellowstone bus. The rear ends, front ends, hubs, wheels, spindles, frames, springs, steering box, radiator and support are ALL marked with the word "CAR". See the wheel bearing photo below.........clearly marked car..........I own more sales data and folders than anyone else I have spoken too.......including the surviving family members.......one of which owns more than 8 cars. I can prove it's not a 1917.......and I have serial numbers on all the suriving 16 valve cars. Three of the five are pre 1916.

 

 

 

I stand corrected. I meant truck like, truckish or built like a truck. P.S. google claim and read the definition.

[edinmass]

50 minutes ago, George K said:

Ed, If a club allows a vehicle in their ranks that’s within their purview. My response is regard your statement of 1915. I have researched for my reasons many cars. I can’t find evidence to back 1915/1916 16V4 production. As an expert your should welcome review. All I ask as a fellow research is proof. No matter how hard I squint I still cannot see it.

 

 

George..........I have more stuff, but the Zenith information, the other car thats been in the HCCA for 50 years, the club file....all should point to it as a platform offered in late 14 and early 15. I ran it past a few current and past national Horseless guys..........all said no problem. 

[George K]

Like I say that’s the clubs decision. In my world until documented beyond reproach it should have an asterisk.  I have owned several Great War period White 3/4” ton trucks. One was orchard truck owned by the Rockefeller’s. My point about truck is other than the kick up on the rails if you flipped the over (and I  have) car vs truck you couldn’t tell a dimes worth of difference a five paces. I once had a couple of the very first 20 hp chassis’s and the were beautiful.  Best of luck,George 

[SC38dls]

George I know very little about judging or rehabbing an 1900’s car or truck. But I do know they don’t judge from 5 paces away. I would never buy a car I only looked at from 5 paces away. If that was the rule I’m sure a lot of daily drivers like my 38 would have been in shows and considered a number 2 car instead of the 3- it is. 
Actually right now it’s a -5 because I wrecked it in a fender bender 

dave s 

[George K]

35 minutes ago, SC38DLS said:

George I know very little about judging or rehabbing an 1900’s car or truck. But I do know they don’t judge from 5 paces away. I would never buy a car I only looked at from 5 paces away. If that was the rule I’m sure a lot of daily drivers like my 38 would have been in shows and considered a number 2 car instead of the 3- it is. 
Actually right now it’s a -5 because I wrecked it in a fender bender 

dave s 

Hello, I was referring to the part for part comparison. I never have been interested in judging. Hope your repair goes well and the meets your expectations.

[alsancle]

This picture is from Nov 1915.   Ed's car is 1915.  Not that it really matters much.

 

 

[SC38dls]

Is that Ed driving in the picture? 

[edinmass]

8 minutes ago, SC38DLS said:

Is that Ed driving in the picture? 

Yup, that’s me. Fifty years and nine months before I was born! I’m always early for every appointment. 👍👍

[edinmass]

30 minutes ago, alsancle said:

This picture is from Nov 1915.   Ed's car is 1915.  Not that it really matters much.

 

 

Neat photo. That’s a short chassis 45 hp car. 

[1937hd45]

FREE DELIVERY (to Hershey) of the next addition to the WHITE Fleet, Didn't Teddy Roosevelt have one? 

 

 

[58L-Y8]

Ed:

How are the front doors hinged on the 1917 Rubay touring?

Steve

[mike6024]

1916 AUTOMOBILE    PAGE 978

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[George K]

Looking through period lists of vehicles one could buy still don’t see a16V4 listed 1915 or 1916. In all you vast data you must have a sales piece offering such a model.

In order 1915,1916, 1917 and 1918. Waiting to see the data. Thanks 

[wayne sheldon]

I believe Ed M is in Hershey PA. This sort of debating should wait until after he has returned home. 

However, I see no problem with this White being accepted in the HCCA. Some of this debate would also belong on the "why 1915" thread also currently running here. As I have said for many years, "Drawing a simple line (cutoff) isn't difficult. It is impossible!" No matter how you state it, no matter how many caveats and definitions you include, there will always be 'gray' areas that someone (or a whole LOT of someones!) will not be happy about! The best defined cutoffs either exclude too many high end and rare that most people want to be able see, or include too many common fake cars that people that cannot afford the big expensive cars want to use.

The simple fact is, that I and almost everyone in the know, am/are aware of numerous Pierce Arrows, Packards (especially twin sixes!), and other high end cars that have slipped into HCCA tours for many years, that do not technically qualify. The HCCA does NOT need any more fights over that little stuff!

[George K]

7 minutes ago, wayne sheldon said:

I believe Ed M is in Hershey PA. This sort of debating should wait until after he has returned home. 

However, I see no problem with this White being accepted in the HCCA. Some of this debate would also belong on the "why 1915" thread also currently running here. As I have said for many years, "Drawing a simple line (cutoff) isn't difficult. It is impossible!" No matter how you state it, no matter how many caveats and definitions you include, there will always be 'gray' areas that someone (or a whole LOT of someones!) will not be happy about! The best defined cutoffs either exclude too many high end and rare that most people want to be able see, or include too many common fake cars that people that cannot afford the big expensive cars want to use.

The simple fact is, that I and almost everyone in the know, am/are aware of numerous Pierce Arrows, Packards (especially twin sixes!), and other high end cars that have slipped into HCCA tours for many years, that do not technically qualify. The HCCA does NOT need any more fights over that little stuff!

Since when is the truth little stuff? If the HCCA has no rules it can’t be much of a club. What you are implying is the HCCA club are just another good old boys club. Drop the pre 16 requirement and call it something else. Who you know with a wink and a nod. Sad situation. I am in the know in a much larger scale than most. If Ed wants to proclaim discoveries that are out of any known references he needs to prove it. Sounds like if he would of been quiet you would just let it slide without validation.

[edinmass]

Here is a 1920 photo, of the one hundred sixteen White 16 valve fleet delivered in May and June 1916, as recorded by the factory records, and from the archives of the Yellowstone Fleet Trust.  Some 300 White cars, trucks, and buses were in use at the national parks. When the fire swept through the park in the mid 20’s, all the cars were lost( in Yellowstone, other parks had a few, and one survives.) and they started buying Lincoln cars.....but they continued with White buses well into the 50’s. The archive is still closed due to covid, so I can’t get a high res scan till they open again.....which will be in the spring. 

Edited October 1, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Here is the sole surviving 1916 White national park car, from 1916.As one would expect, big batch orders meant special order equipment. In this case, lights and snubbers. Also a special gear ratio for park cars, using the standard four speed White manufactured transmission. The park cars also has special wheels. The. Ick name for park drivers, given to them by the tourists????? Gear Jammers! And the name stuck, and applies to bus drivers today. Photo is a poor screen shot, sorry.

Edited October 2, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

In front of the lodge, a  fleet White, in standard garb. The car is a 1916 White 16 Valve, 72 horsepower. There was an 82 HP version offered, but none of the bigger units were known to get into the fleet.

[edinmass]

Here is a screen shot of the fire that wiped out half the fleet in 1925. A few photos also........

[edinmass]

The carriage house converted to bus garage, before the fire in 1919. And a photo of the “new” 1925 garage that still stands and is in use today we are going to bring the 1917 out for the 100 anniversary of the building in a few years......

[1912Staver]

Despite the low resolution that's a remarkable shot of the Park fleet. That must have been quite a sale.  I expect White had a lot of contacts within the Government after the war years. Talk about a catastrophic fire.

[edinmass]

In the news........

[edinmass]

So, while I haven’t previously disclosed it here, I have spent countless hours on the White Motor Car Company, and their products. Yes, they made bicycles..........got one. Hasn’t arrived yet, neither has the sewing machine. I have hundreds of great photos of cars, trucks, and other products they built.......here are just a few. Including a crated 1917 truck shipped to France..........I probably have a thousand photos now.......

Edited October 1, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

More photos from Yellowstone.......with White cars and busses, and one post dire Lincoln ..........enjoy

[SC38dls]

I’ve had the pleasure of seeing how through you are with the mechanical process of these old cars when you did my distributor. I can guess you are just as passionate or more so on researching your new fleet of two wheel, sewing machines and four wheel Great Whites.  Hope you post some of those pics when you tell us all about your rebuild on this car like the last one. 

[LI_BENTLEY]

When I replaced the main ball bearings in my 45 HP  White they had White stamped into the outer race.

[edinmass]

5 hours ago, George K said:

Looking through period lists of vehicles one could buy still don’t see a16V4 listed 1915 or 1916. In all you vast data you must have a sales piece offering such a model.

In order 1915,1916, 1917 and 1918. Waiting to see the data. Thanks 

 

Using that logic......where are the 6-60 White cars listed in your charts? They were manufactured from 1912 to 1916.........just because you have a source, you think it has everything in it? Or are you going to argue they didn’t build a 6-60 series car? As there are six of them remaining. Since the casting date is what HCCA has used for over 70 years to identify and allow Model T’s in the club...........the White’s block will automatically allow it in. I guess the 6-60 is just another White truck with a car body on it........and as far as Wikipedia goes for a source, that you quoted earlier.........they didn’t have a mention or source for the 4 valve engine in the listing........until I added it in.So, it was incorrect for twenty years........till I fixed it.

[prewarnut]

How would you compare the performance of the White to the slightly newer Lincoln V8? I'd assume the White has more low end torque but would the Lincoln be more manouverable/easier to steer with smaller wheels?

[edinmass]

1 minute ago, prewarnut said:

How would you compare the performance of the White to the slightly newer Lincoln V8? I'd assume the White has more low end torque but would the Lincoln be more manouverable/easier to steer with smaller wheels?

 

Ok, you want me to piss off a bunch of guys? Totally different animals. The White of 1917 is a better platform than the “L” Lincoln’s. It’s faster, smoother, and easier to drive. The Lincoln stops much better with two wheel brakes. I expect the Lincoln will do better on long hills.............but I honestly haven’t driven very early Lincoln’s mort than a few hundred miles. My love affair with Lincoln automobiles begins with the KB series......

[wayne sheldon]

Sounds like I may have driven 'L' series Lincolns as much as you have! A longtime very good friend had a 1925 seven passenger sedan. I rode with him to meets and on tours for a few thousand miles, and often drove it heading home as my lifelong bout with insomnia made me safe from falling asleep at the wheel. He after really long days sometimes had trouble that way. They do drive nice! But I suspect the earlier platform of the White was better suited for the roads of Yellowstone. Not really a question of platform design, as much as the earlier platform was intended for rougher conditions. Without a doubt, the 16 valve four cylinder White engine was well ahead of its time in several ways, giving it performance superior to most other engines of the era! 

[George K]

27 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

Using that logic......where are the 6-60 White cars listed in your charts? They were manufactured from 1912 to 1916.........just because you have a source, you think it has everything in it? Or are you going to argue they didn’t build a 6-60 series car? As there are six of them remaining. Since the casting date is what HCCA has used for over 70 years to identify and allow Model T’s in the club...........the White’s block will automatically allow it in. I guess the 6-60 is just another White truck with a car body on it........and as far as Wikipedia goes for a source, that you quoted earlier.........they didn’t have a mention or source for the 4 valve engine in the listing........until I added it in.So, it was incorrect for twenty years........till I fixed it.

6-60 are 1912 1913 1914 and none for 1915 or 1916. Perhaps some were sold 1915 1916 but not listed in these sources. Not listed in any sources. I have never quoted Wikipedia.Your the Wikipedia guy and White expert. Big fish in a small pond. I show real data where’s yours. Pictures of trucks?  Nice try. Where could I buy a 1915 16V4 in 1915. Show your cards. Not an excel spreadsheet of existing examples. 

 

 

 

[58L-Y8]

On a recent visit to the top of Pikes Peak, this enlarged image is in the Visitor's Center at the top of the mountain.   Although the image is indistinct, the touring appears to be a White.

[edinmass]

Here is a 1915 White, 16 Valve Four, it’s a twin plug, dual- twin spark battery over magneto ignition, with a 1914 casting date in the block. It’s either in the original family or purchased from the original owner family and now still in the same family for decades......I honestly can’t remember the exact story that was related to me. It’s been in the HCCA for fifty years.......it’s and identical power plant/platform to my car.......with a higher engine number than mine.....go figure. It attended the Horseless Carriage Museum inaugural event in June at the Gilmore Museum Complex along with 150 other brass cars. Owned buy a great guy who has helped me with manufacturing parts for the dual valve motors.........he’s rather low profile, and his cars tend to be camera shy, so it’s the only photo I will post......this photo is in the public domain, so I share it here.

 

Back at the shop, I have some 1916 factory White literature announcing the end of the White six cylinder engine because the four valves motor makes them outdated. I think it was dated September, but I can’t check for a couple of weeks till I get back in town.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[George K]

So it’s powered with a 16v4 engine in what chassis. It must be a earlier chassis. How is it badged by the factory. An original car like that must have serial number and type on the tag. Is it as a 16V4?

[edinmass]

YES- it’s a 16V4

 

There is a 16V4 3/4 ton truck in Ohio.  They call it a 1915, I have photos, but am not allowed to share as the restoration shop trusted me with them, and want them private.

 

Also, I have photos of one 6-60 bus.....dated 1915......not sure if it’s correct, but it is labeled as such and is rumored to survive. 
 

George......that’s the issue with just about any car company that also made trucks......so much experimental, low production, and “test platforms” were done that it’s hard to define anything. The car is as built........ it’s a hybrid chassis as far as I can tell. There were no less than four different car chassis from 1915-1917 from what I have observed. (Wheel size and chassis length also were not consistent.) White truck business was tailored to fleet production and factory “batch” production. Honestly cars weren’t their main concern.......kind of strange why they kept at it. Add in that White was bankrolling Rubay and Kuntz and it gets even stranger.......that the same company was making high end one off stylish car bodies, as well as truck cabs and beds. (Don’t forget school and church furniture.)
 

The car above has the same steering box, wheel and column, engine, transmission, ignition, and fuel system as my second White car. Front axel is different. We’re they using up supplies until they ran out? Probably. In the end.......White motor vehicles were more packages and components assembled in semi custom orders. Easy back then, complicated and expensive today.

 

Some White cars had tags on the firewall independent of the engine and chassis number. Some had tags and chassis numbers that matched, and others didn’t have any tags. I think body builder had something to do with it. Also, on my hard top or California Top, that was a sub let to another Cleveland company......which I can prove........ so my second White doesn’t have any firewall data plate, no chassis number stamped in the normal place, just an engine number. What is interesting........all the dual valve four’s part numbers have been cast into place on many/most parts.........so you can ID what platform/engine/model the part fits. 
 

As far as the sixes go......they were still selling them into mid 1916.......could they actually deliver one? Or were they just using up inventory? if you want to talk crazy, there are ads in Spanish for 1919 and 1920 White motor cars that were being run in South America...........two years after production was finished. Rumor is that they built less than 20 cars in 1918. I have never seen proof of a 1918 White car.......just numbers on a page, and where they came from is anyone’s guess.

Edited October 2, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Ozstatman]