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1923 Dodge engine


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Hi. i have just joined this forum and hoping for some advice on the above engine.

I have owned this car for a long time [ in New Zealand ]and now I have retired have started to finish off the restoration.  I have never had it running so want to remove the sump to check the crank and bearings. There are 2 holes at the rear of the sump on front cover for the flywheel [ it has been soldered to the sump ] where I suspect there are 2 bolts or screws. Very hard to tell, but with all visible bolts loose, the sump is free all around except at the rear.  Can someone verify that and let me know what they are, or suggest where I can get this information.

 

many thanks

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Hi Bob. Thanks for that. Very quick replay. Yes both bolts missing and one broken off.   I thought about looking at the other engine i had in the garaqe and discovered those bolts.  Amazing, they are not a standards size squares, but managed to get them out with a 7/16" open ender.  Got the sump off in the end but I should have removed the oil pump first, which was a little awkward hanging onto the sump as well.

The block was full of black sludge. Yuck what a mess.  All looks well otherwise but I am going to Plastiguage the bearings anyway. Most modern engines have about 1 thou" clearance. What should I expect with this engine?

 

Lots of work to be done. repair front guards. Make up new hood stays and make new hood.

 

I have been advised the 24" tyres are hugely expensive and have sometimes been replaced with 21".   Mine has been a 4 seater, cut down into a flat deck truck, and 21" wheels fitted to the rear.

 

What are the prices and availability of tyres over there.  525x21   and 5.00 x 24.

 

Dereck

 

PS My other automotive interest is Norton Commando's.

Edited by cutdown (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

5.25-21" tires are all but non existent. Last week I managed to get the last 3 Firestones Summit had and have not yet been able to find the 4th anywhere. I did find a few 3" Wide Whites  somewhere among the phone calls but at nearly $400 a tire I passed...   Many places are showing them on their websites but when ya call to order it the same story, They are out of stock and no idea when they will be back in..

 

CokerTire.com

Looks to have 4 of the Blackwall BF Goodrich 500-24 tires in stock $268.00 ea

Edited by BHWINCVAP (see edit history)
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  • 1 month later...

Another engine question.

Has any one any knowledge of a modification to the front retainer that holds the gears to the front of the crankshaft. The original retainer, with the pin going through it and through the crankshaft is not holding the gears tight. They are loose and flog out the key-way if they are left. 

 

Also, does anyone know if the oil pump is able to push oil through a filter, before delivering it to the engine.  I have a copy of the original workshop manual and it says the zero oil pressure at idle is not a problem [ and normal when hot ]. That to me is wrong. It also talks about 1 - 1/2 lbs at 20 mph in top gear [ presumably 1-1/ psi ]. Not very high by today's standards. 

 

many thanks

 

Dereck

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Although it has an oil pump, it is not a true pressurized oil system.  The pump brings oil to a galley in the block where it then fills pockets in the oil pan baffle that line up with the connecting rods.  It’s basically a splash system at that point.  That’s why the oil pressure gauge only goes to 4 psi.  I use 10W30  and for the first few miles the pressure stays up around 4 but after it fully warms up it’s down in that 1 - 2 range at idle.

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Once worn whether it is the pin, the gear or the crankshaft the ultimate failure is catastrophic so replacement is important.

The oil pump is very small so fitting a filter having a 40 micron restriction is probably not a good idea. If using the correct oil “Not the modern car synthetic oil” then a filter is not necessary. Modern detergent oils are not suitable for these engines.

I would not run a car with zero oil pressure.

The pressure is set by the ball and spring located in the fitting coming off the block, in this example just behind the water pump.
 

9C82B9CB-C265-4C67-B393-8AF53FD1BD98.jpeg.a44e4875ce5be88eeff4814313c7eb6d.jpeg

 

The ball and spring are available new from Myers early Dodge parts.

Low oil pressure could be due to the pump being worn, the ball and spring losing tension, incorrect oil or greater than recommended gaps in the bearing caps on the mains and big ends. The oil feed is via splash from a rail coating the inside of the bore (lower) and the crankcase from above and a sort of scoop on the big ends splashing from a raised trough in the sump to help assist in feeding the bearings.
I have four psi on my 1917 on start up at idle and when very hot at idle three and a bit rising to four when driving. I change my oil regularly between rallies / tours so maybe every 1,000 miles.

Just my thoughts.

 

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Since you began by saying you have a 1923 Dodge Brothers car, I will presume you also have a 97 year old oil pressure gauge. That said, along with every thing else said here about your car having a non-conventional engine oiling system (by 2021 standards anyway) remember that the gauge in your car is not a sophisticated piece of electronic marvelry. It is a tiny brass bladder which extends and contracts as it fills and empties with oil from the oil pump. There are a lot of things, such as a regulator valve and tiny, impeller operated oil pump in this rather loosely assembled system. In a conventional system oil is pumped throughout the engine through openings in the crankshaft, camshaft and bearings. Thusly, oil pressure is dependent on bearing seal as well as viscosity and temperature. On your Dodge Brothers engine the little oil pump, which can be rendered useless by use of a gasket of improper thickness on its bottom plate, vacuums oil from a sump, a foot or so away, through a 5/8” oil line, compresses it with a little bitty impeller, forces it through another foot or so of 5/8” tubing, through a regulator valve, branched off by the oil pressure gauge fitting, and then sent into a trough along the inside of the engine block. If you got tired reading that, you understand the amount of sympathy the oil system of these engines deserve. I use straight 30 weight, non detergent oil in the engine of my 1923 Dodge Brothers 4 cylinder, and, thanks to the leaks, only anticipate adding to the crankcase, and, thanks to the leaks, never expect having to change the oil.😃

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This is a volume not pressure system. The pressure on the gauge is more to indicate that oil is being pumped. Ford Model A's worked the same way at about the same pressures. For an oil filter you would want to use a full flow type, same as what Model A's would use in a non modified system, Ford Model T's can use the same filter with their gravity system.

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Some good points raised here, although perhaps some clarification. The oil pump is gravity fed, the pump is a sliding vane type with a helper spring to keep the vanes in touch with the chamber sides.

The pipe size from the sump to the pump is 3/8”

The line into the block and oil gauge is 1/4”

 

4BC97647-3C5C-4DF0-A22C-ACD9A5C176A8.jpeg.b068665cab3f0228fa16cd09c64fb451.jpeg4040D7D0-9BA5-4B4A-9C40-F338AF587961.jpeg.391bc56b8d8a9e8d04a2abdd96e5a715.jpeg51D46E7D-4130-40C4-8EF3-58491BA09222.jpeg.04a92f036a7684c08a58fac21a352028.jpeg

 

The chamber referred to is the outer crescent in the above photo. Critical to the operation is the face of the bottom cover shown in photo 2. It can be pitted due to moisture sitting on this plate during the “rest period” in a shed.

As pointed out, a gasket fitted to seal this, if too thick, can create a gap so oil can bypass. Also mentioned is that this is a volume pump and the pressure gauge indicates flow rather than a pressure to be achieved, the pressure is created by introducing a restriction into the flow however if the ball and spring regulator (the restriction) is fitted and you have no pressure showing then I would take this to be a concern. If the pump cannot put out enough pressure to lift the ball off it’s seat and show even one psi then the pump is not performing as it should and points to check would be the aforementioned cover plate clearance, the vane wear and the spring tension.

In my experience frequent oil changes to maintain the lubrication qualities and remove the contamination not removed by an oil filter as in modern cars is just ahead of greasing regularly to help provide a longer life for our charges.

just my thoughts.

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HI There. Thanks for your replies. I understand what you are saying. I have been a mechanic for over 30 years but retired from that 21 years ago.  It was obvious to me after what I have seen that I needed more information, which I hoped I would get by purchasing the copy of the Dodge workshop manual.  That wasn't the case hence all the questions.

I have made the decision to remove the engine etc to make it easier to fix the problems, the main one being the loose gears at the front of the crankshaft.

My oil pump looks pretty good [ no pitting ] but I will attend to that as necessary. 

 

As for the loose gears. Can anyone tell me if the pin driven through the collar and crankshaft is tapered.  A friend  suggested it might be, or it would come loose. It looks like it has been peened on both ends so which way am I going to drive it out.

I have to make up an "A" frame to hoist the engine out with my chain block so have a bit of time to sort all this out. I should have decided to haul the engine out in the first place because the clutch is bound to be seized and a good idea to inspect the g/box as well. Someone has fitted an SU type fuel pump and the Stewart vac pump is included with the spares so good idea to make that work as well.

 

The 2 x 3/8 OD  C U oil lines have only single tapers and I prefer the double taper. The oil line to the engine has been flattened as well in the sharp bend near the OP valve. I have also started to make and adapter at the sump pick up to enable a drain plug to be fitted. I don't really like how they suggest draining the oil by loosening the oil supply pipe from the sump and oil pump.

 

Seeing as the oil pump is such a low pressure device, I had better set up a jig to prove whether a filter could be fitted inline or not. 

 

I like these nice simple engines, just like the engines on my Norton Motorbikes.  We had a bit of a saying in the motor trade though. "The simple devices sometime were the hardest to cure/diagnose". Don't get sucked in because it cant give trouble.

 

all the best

 

Dereck

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Keep in touch Dereck, if you need information someone here will have it.

On that note no, the pin is straight. Part number 202 if anyone has any NOS.

 

16FEB4FA-558F-4896-A18B-54FD5E229A29.jpeg.4e255cd78ee0f0e6f4df0df38436ce05.jpeg


6C771B7A-AC76-416E-985D-E9CFBF8CF930.jpeg.af0b3417984bc08ad86d2e1c826b887e.jpeg

 

Sadly, no dimension information in the parts book.

 

EA01471F-8DE2-4838-B10C-88072BBD0E2F.jpeg

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Posted (edited)

Hi Minibago.  That pin [ 202 ] is the one the crank handle engages with. The diagram does not show the pin that goes through collar no 261.  I suspect 212 represents the drive for the oil pump. 205 [ retainer ] appears to be pointing to the dynamo drive gear.

 

We are getting somewhere slowly though. As you mentioned, someone out there will know.

 

I think I need to get  a book with the part numbers in  it. Not sure where though, and not sure I want to pay another $99.00 NZ for a book that does not have the answers I want. That workshop manual didn't give me any more information that I didn't know or have access to from an encyclopedia written in 1943,  covering the basics of American vehicles. Not to worry. It was interesting reading.

 

Dereck

 

 

I love the way the manual suggests leaving the crank handle in position to help stop water from entering the engine.  This is the first engine I have seen that does not have any type of oil seal arrangement at the front.

Edited by cutdown (see edit history)
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Hi Dereck,

I have a very nice leather bound parts list costing a little more than NZ$99 so hopefully we can make good use of it.

I will have a look at an engine I have in the garage first thing tomorrow to see what I can discover that might help. I also have a spare bare crankshaft so I just had a look at it.

 

9B799202-1977-428C-826E-0A5B6E4FE17F.jpeg.5696fe5f0f7654a62a85d3953c99aaf0.jpeg

 

F6F09D0C-F062-4B14-B0C7-151C9A5B23FA.jpeg.1381fd5c1728b6c63d4b5def4ebec80f.jpeg

 

I am not sure why but the second hole is not shown in the parts book, nor is the pin.

This hole is 0.2 inches (1/5) an odd size however the keyways do the driving so it can only there to prevent movement fore and aft.

Keep asking the questions.

😊

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On 7/18/2021 at 6:03 PM, Minibago said:

Some good points raised here, although perhaps some clarification. The oil pump is gravity fed, the pump is a sliding vane type with a helper spring to keep the vanes in touch with the chamber sides.

The pipe size from the sump to the pump is 3/8”

The line into the block and oil gauge is 1/4”

 

4BC97647-3C5C-4DF0-A22C-ACD9A5C176A8.jpeg.b068665cab3f0228fa16cd09c64fb451.jpeg4040D7D0-9BA5-4B4A-9C40-F338AF587961.jpeg.391bc56b8d8a9e8d04a2abdd96e5a715.jpeg51D46E7D-4130-40C4-8EF3-58491BA09222.jpeg.04a92f036a7684c08a58fac21a352028.jpeg

 

The chamber referred to is the outer crescent in the above photo. Critical to the operation is the face of the bottom cover shown in photo 2. It can be pitted due to moisture sitting on this plate during the “rest period” in a shed.

As pointed out, a gasket fitted to seal this, if too thick, can create a gap so oil can bypass. Also mentioned is that this is a volume pump and the pressure gauge indicates flow rather than a pressure to be achieved, the pressure is created by introducing a restriction into the flow however if the ball and spring regulator (the restriction) is fitted and you have no pressure showing then I would take this to be a concern. If the pump cannot put out enough pressure to lift the ball off it’s seat and show even one psi then the pump is not performing as it should and points to check would be the aforementioned cover plate clearance, the vane wear and the spring tension.

In my experience frequent oil changes to maintain the lubrication qualities and remove the contamination not removed by an oil filter as in modern cars is just ahead of greasing regularly to help provide a longer life for our charges.

just my thoughts.

Yep….I regress on the pipe size. I realize now that I was incorrect in sizes, but the gist of the statement is that the relatively tiny impeller must move a massive amount of oil, through some rather large tubes, for quite a distance,  for the system is to even work. And lack of pressure at the gauge was the topic of the post. I’m not sure how it is a “gravity” system, in regards other than the drip/splash method of delivery, since the oil is picked up in the sump, drawn uphill to the pump, which is mounted on the oil pan quite a bit higher than the sump. Gravity does play a part in priming the pump, which is also essential to its operation, because the primer oil must run down hill, through the line leading from the oil regulator (the little thing with a tiny spring, and little ball bearing, which is always lost….but can be bought from Meyers Early Dodge), to the cavity (outer crescent) and a tad of gravity does help there.

The sole comforting fact here, even though I did not measure the lines on my 1923 Dodge. Brothers Roadster 4 cylinder engine when I rebuilt it, is that it now (actually) runs beautifully. And, it was installed laying flat on my 77 year old back, using my arthritic hands, rather than farming the work out to a professional mechanic…….and then taking credit for the job. The 98 year old lines and their fittings seemed in good enough shape to reuse, so I saw no need to measure them since they had done a fine job of lubing the engine for nearly 100 years, and I had no reason to doubt that they’d work for another 100 regardless of their size.

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Both my lines from the oil pump are 3/8" OD and 7.6 mm ID. The one going to the gauge is smaller. I don' t like the restriction [ in the bend ] in the pipe going to the engine hence wanting to renew it. The pipes to me are not very big for a low pressure system, but obviously big enough.

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Posted (edited)

Minibago. That's a great help. Looks like a parallel hole. It also looks like the gears on your crank there have been moving as well. Must be a common problem. An engineer I know came to the same conclusion as me. Make a longer collet and thread the outside. Secure a nut over that to compress the gears, after renewing both keys and Loctiting the gears to the crank.

 

That's the second odd dimension I have seen so far now.  The squares on the rear sump bolts are neither metric nor imperial..Bigger that 3/8 and smaller then 7/16. 10.25 mm or 0.4035 inches.  I always though american dimensions were in inches but didn't realize they used the decimal inches rather that the fractions.  [ maybe apart from crankshafts and pistons ]

Edited by cutdown
new info (see edit history)
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On 7/12/2021 at 5:06 PM, cutdown said:

Another engine question.

Has any one any knowledge of a modification to the front retainer that holds the gears to the front of the crankshaft. The original retainer, with the pin going through it and through the crankshaft is not holding the gears tight. They are loose and flog out the key-way if they are left. 

 

Also, does anyone know if the oil pump is able to push oil through a filter, before delivering it to the engine.  I have a copy of the original workshop manual and it says the zero oil pressure at idle is not a problem [ and normal when hot ]. That to me is wrong. It also talks about 1 - 1/2 lbs at 20 mph in top gear [ presumably 1-1/ psi ]. Not very high by today's standards. 

 

many thanks

 

Dereck

I’m real curious about this, and would sure appreciate a photo when you get time. I bought my 1923 DB Roadster as a basket case, off chassis rebuild, which was put on hold around 1976. The engine was partially assembled, had been bored out .030, and appeared to have been rebuilt from the sump up. I now believe it was more of a repaint than a rebuild because I ran into the same problem as you are now having with no compression on number 2 cylinder. Upon re-removal of the head, and a whole lot of wondering, I drank a beer and figured out that the head of the number two cylinder intake valve was badly warped. So, $37.00, and a while later, the new intake valve arrived   from Meyers and was installed in short order. A new head gasket was ordered from Olson’s, the head was reinstalled, the valves adjusted, and the engine still refused to crank. Some more investigation revealed that the camshaft gear was one tooth out of adjustment, so the front of the engine had to come off. The timing was corrected, the distributor drive gear timing was determined to be correct, and the engine still refused to start.

These engines were originally equipped with cast iron rings, and it was suggested that the rings had seized in their grooves…..and thus the Marvel Mystery Oil and ARF soak……and the engine cranked, and has been running ever since. When I had the front engine covers off, and the gears all exposed, if I recall correctly, all gears were keyed and secured with a nut. The camshaft gear has, I think, six bolts with lacing wire. I would appreciate learning more about this pin you have mentioned.

6179DD23-25A1-4F15-B2B0-C542A9C7A187.jpeg

22BAD9FA-D66D-458D-9DD3-3042B4343393.jpeg

Edited by Jack Bennett (see edit history)
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Jack. Look at the front of your crankshaft.  You can see the drive pin which the crank handle engages. Behind that is a coller, which is held in place by the 0.2 inch pin mentioned above. That coller presses against the oil pump drive gear which presses against the Dynamo drive gear and the camshaft drive gear. I advise you to make sure any of those gears are not loose/. [ rocking or oscilating back and forward on the crank. ]  If they are, you had better fix them as the workshop manual mentions a knocking noise they can make and also, destruction if they come loose.

 

At the moment, I don't have the front off the engine as my original intention was only to adjust the bearing clearances once I removed the sump.

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Bouncing back to your original topic of no pressure in your 23 Dodge. I forgot to mention, if the oil pump has lost its prime, it is primed most easily through the pressure regulator valve. A unprimed pump will not suction oil from the sump. Next thing, the oil pressure gauge is operated by a expansion bladder which must be filled with oil. If the oil has drained out, or dried up in this bladder, you will not have oil pressure until it is re-primed. Simply pouring oil down the tube leading to the oil pressure gauge won’t do it. There will be a air block in the tube, and oil will never reach the bladder to fill it.  Just saying.

Edited by Jack Bennett (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

Hi Mark. The camshaft "drive gear" I mentioned, is the one on the crankshaft.  The "driven gear' is on the camshaft.  [ auto engineers terms ]

 

Jack, thanks for your comment.   I have never run this engine, but the bloody workshop manual I bought, mentioned that no pressure at idle hot was OK.  To me that's a pile of shite.

 

Below are pictures from the manual I bought.  You can see in the middle of page 3 where it says no oil pressure is OK @ low revs. [ That's bollocks to me, unless I am Miss-reading what it says. ]

IMG_20210722_111119.jpg

IMG_20210722_111215.jpg

IMG_20210722_111203.jpg

Edited by cutdown (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

 

Hi Minibago.  Could you please let me know the diameter of the crankshaft where the timing and Dynamo gears sit.  It looks like Dodge must have known about the gears coming loose and decided to put 2 keyway's in the crank instead of the usual 1 keyway. [ My guess ]

 

 

imagejpeg_2.jpg.45e06fb696c41311d415395ccb305fa2.jpg

 

Picture of car just before putting in my daughter's garage. It does look odd withe 24 inch wheels on the front and the 21 inch on the back but that's the way I intend to keep it looking at this stage.

front of dodge crankshaft.jpeg

Edited by cutdown (see edit history)
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Hi Dereck,

The diameter of the collar shaft is one inch, the diameter of the gear shaft is one and 3/8ths inches.

Nice photo. 
I like individuality so you have the wheels how you like.

😊

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RE: Hi Mark. The camshaft "drive gear" I mentioned, is the one on the crankshaft.  The "driven gear' is on the camshaft.  [ auto engineers terms ]

I added: "The camshaft gear; there are alignment marks on the end of the camshaft and one on the gear, but no key", in case you might have been looking for a key on the cam shaft. :)

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Posted (edited)

Hi Mark. Most of the camshafts I have worked on in the past which have been secured by bolts, don't have keys. Some have vernier adjustments as well. [ ie Jaguar ]

 

I have had another look at my loose gear problem and decided to get some advice about threading the 1 inch portion of the crankshaft so a nut can be used to secure the gears.  There isn't enough room for a mod to that collet. Also, the collet OD is about as big as you can go, without interfering with the oil pump driven gear which looks in my case to be forward of the centre line of its mate on the crankshaft. It will mean the nut has to be turned down sufficient to miss that gear when its tightened up. the drive pin for the crank handle can be utilized for some sort of locking device for the nut.

 

Engine out before that happens.   It will be good to do a total strip now to remove all that black crud inside the block.

 

Thanks for all your help guys.  i will keep this thread going as progress is made.

 

Dereck

Edited by cutdown (see edit history)
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