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1923 Buick Delco starter generator HELP,!


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Need help with this one ūüėě

Starter working fine, but doing some maintance on the Delco starter generator.

I replaced the small black wire with red ends which runs from one of the right terminals down to the small brush.

 

Now nothing,!

 

I have a good 6v battery and good neg earth

i have good 6v at the large terminal inside the Delco. The small yellow/black wire goes up to ignition switch again 6v there.

it comes back via small blue and white cable to left small terminal again good 6v there.

press starter pedal all gear moves forward.

Then dead? Nothing!

there is no power at the right small terminal which has the black cable I replaced and a yellow and black cable which goes up to number 3 on back of ignition switch.

 

in the second picture you can just see the broken connector bottom right. All I did was move my new connector to the other side to touch yellow and black cable.

 

Can somebody check if this wirering is correct?

I have the diagram posted here before.

all looks good to me, so  what’s happened?

 

Help Please !

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The terminal closest to the big terminal is the F or field terminal.  The wire under the insulator appears to go to the field coil as expected.  The wire on the top side goes to the coil negative terminal.  When the ignition is on, there should be 6 volts on this bolt as the voltage travels from ignition switch to the coil and to this bolt.

The terminal furthest from the big terminal is the A or armature terminal.  This wire connects as shown to the moveable top armature generator brush.  It originally was on the back side of the bolt but has been moved to the nut side.  The old terminal end is still there.  The yellow/black wire connects to the #2 position screw on the back of the ignition switch.  When the ignition switch is on, there should be 6 volts on this bolt.    

The big bolt is 6 volts all the time.  It has power from the battery and connects to the ammeter.  

 

The wire with the red ends goes to the moveable brush.  The moveable brush has a slot in the end that fits over an insulator.  The moveable brush is raised when the starter motor brush is lowered whenever you push on the pedal and retract the pointed rod.  You may have knocked this fork off the insulator. 

 

Hugh

 383510737_S-Gwiring(1)Kevin.jpg.1e18c14b67e9f5a1bec5312676a940e4.jpg347977071_SGwiring.JPG.8b9e410c2464d563992c34845a25171a.JPG931119480_StarterGeneratoroperation.JPG.22829f803dbcb40d66e2e129fd1c986e.JPG1320645498_1925starter_gen.Kevin.jpg.763d5f7d0ed492d6387f8a3e89547f40.jpg

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Thank you Hubert, what would I do without you ūüĎćūüėÄ

 

ok I have no voltage at the the A or armature terminal. (#3)

No voltage on the old terminal left on inside of bolt ?

?

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Posted (edited)

Barry,

 No Voltage at A with the ignition on means there is a problem in the ignition switch or no power getting to the ignition switch from the ammeter.  Is this the case - no power at A with the ignition on?    

 

When you turn the ignition on, do you get motoring (The generator just spinning). 

Edited by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)
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Hubert

thank you for you knowledge and kind words.

I tested and rearranged the wiring to make sure that I had 6v at both terminals with the ignition on.

still nothing.

So rolled my sleeves up, spanner’s out and took the s/g off the car.

I haven’t had a good look yet but straight away inside just where the plunger comes in I can see a bear wire. Looks like the plunger has been rubbing or short circuit.

It’s late now so tomorrow I’ll have to take it apart.

Any tips?

63F85CA7-F48F-4FF2-85EC-242CD72495F9.jpeg

47CCD05A-DBD2-49BF-A7B7-7EFB25443259.jpeg

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Hubert, it’s not looking good.

stripped it down and repaired bared wires. 
Rebuilt  and bench tested.

Nothing.

 

It appears to be shorting though. When I attach the earth cable it sparks.

which to me seams to indicate a short?

 

any ideas where to look?

or is it the armature burnt though?

9A7F7B37-FEB6-4F70-98CC-F2636C2A470D.jpeg

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Barry R,

 

I AM NOT being disrespectful of ANYONE on here - Hugh is as sharp as they come on these units, however, back in the day, these starter/generator units were a complicated, high tech mechanism in their time.  There is one person out there

who understands these units, knows how to work on them and will put your S/G Unit back in top working order.  That person is Rex Curtiss at Precision Power in Lansing, Michigan.  You can reach Rex at (800) 794-5962.  I will be the first to

agree that restoring one of these units is not a bargain basement affair.  If you want it done so that you will not be having problems in the future, if you want it done right, then Rex Curtiss is your choice.  I have three Buicks that use these units

and Rex has rebuilt all of them for me.  They work perfectly and he's not paying me to say this.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

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Posted (edited)

Barry,

    In my procedure, there are 2 test methods.  One for the generator and one for the starter.  They are in one unit, but basically separate components sharing a common shaft.  The link being when the starter brush is lifted, the generator brush makes contact - and vice versa.  Doing the generator test, all you are trying to do is spin a generator.  This does not draw a lot of amps.  When you are doing the starter test, you will get a serious spark because you are drawing significant amperage.  Batteries have 750 cold cranking amps.  That is why it took so long to develop the starter.   Lots of amps and lots of heat, but short duration so the components survive.  When you do the starter test, you can't just back off when you see a spark while laying the jumper cables on the bolts.  You have to hold it for a moment with force on the connection and trust that the starter spins.  Maybe it's a 1 Mississippi, 2 Mississippi, and then you let off when you feel welding goggles may be in order and you just get a large hum.   This is what a starter solenoid does for you, but this car does not have a starter solenoid.  It lets the starter brushes take that spark, but they are already in place on the armature.  

      All that said, if you have wires that are shorting, that is why you pulled it apart to inspect everything and fix it. 

You can always box it up and pay for shipping a 60 lb. boat anchor each way.   Then there is the shop rate.  That can be a lot of cost when your problem is only a bad insulator or worn down brushes. 

You do need to be diligent in pulling it apart and putting it back together correctly - and to understand where all the insulators are, and none were missing.  I did buy replacement insulators from Jason at www.aerrebuild.com and Rex Curtis is another one that will sell parts or rebuild your unit.  

 

So which test failed?  The starter or the generator?  Are you willing to try it again?  You can always just put it in a box too.    Hugh

 

Edited by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)
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Terry , Hubert

 

I did it,¬†I stripped it down and got it going ūüėÄūüėÄūüėÄ

 

Just put it back on the car.

 

When I connected the battery it started to spin slowly, I know this is the slow spin for the alinement., but I thought it would not spin until the ignition is on.?

 

The other thing on the plunger (the pointed bar which goes in when you push the pedal) there is a groove/slot. Should there be a screw into this slot to stop it spinning ?

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I don't know how electrical engineers and expert mechanics fix 100-year-old starter/generators, but this is how optometrists do it. 

 

I took mine to a starter and alternator repair place. All they do is repair starters and alternators all day, and they have an excellent reputation, been there 40 years. I said it was a starter generator. He said that was too many words. I said if that's too many words, it's really a starter generator coil distributor. He said "No way, let me see it." I had 3 of them in the truck, all 3 the same. I said they were 100 years old, he boasted he worked on a starter that was 50 years old once. Oh, that's nice, I thought. This is twice as old as anything he ever worked on.

 

He worked on it, which means he cleaned it, tested the bearings, he was really fascinated by it, but he tried to replace the brushes but had no source of new ones, he broke one of the bakelite brush arms and was really freaked out and tried his best to repair it with epoxy and was apologetic, but he didn't know I had 2 extras so everything was cool. I said your epoxy job doesn't matter, believe it or not here's a good one. His epoxy job was excellent by the way but I handed one of the originals to him and he was happy.

 

He didn't charge me anything. Here is how optometrists repair Buick starter generators: 1917 Buick with a jughead engine, sat for 80 years. Part 12---starter/generator, electrical system. - YouTube

 

Morgan Wright O.D.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Barry R said:

Terry , Hubert

 

I did it,¬†I stripped it down and got it going ūüėÄūüėÄūüėÄ

 

Just put it back on the car.

 

When I connected the battery it started to spin slowly, I know this is the slow spin for the alinement., but I thought it would not spin until the ignition is on.?

 

The other thing on the plunger (the pointed bar which goes in when you push the pedal) there is a groove/slot. Should there be a screw into this slot to stop it spinning ?

Berry,

     Glad that you have it working again.  It will enjoy the cleaning and new lubrication.  With only power on the single battery connection, it should not be spinning.  Better check your wiring again.  It should motor when the starter brush is lifted by the pointer, and the generator brushes are down - and you have 6 volts on the A terminal with power coming from the ignition switch.  

 

The slot in the pointer is interesting.  Some cars have a bolt for this, and other pointers do not have the slot.   I can not advise as there is no slot in my pointer.    Hugh 

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